Migoto Is a Cheat. Devs please Ban this!

[SCG_Wulfe]

21 minutes ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

I have HTC Vive. Its not competitive in MP, but is a great experience in SP. I do not plan to use external software to augment my performance in VR for it to become competitive in MP however.

 

So you understand it is not competitive. If there is software that can level that playing field, why should we not do so in the interest of including more players in online play? The number of online players is already limited enough. Don't you agree?

 

TrackIR is external software and hardware that augments your ability to turn your head in ways you cannot without it. Should it be banned or limited as well? 

 

Discord is an external piece of software that was not built into the original game by the devs. It augments performance beyond that allowed by the base game. By your logic, it is also not pure and should be banned.

 

External software by it's existence does not necessitate a ban or a problem. It is only the case if it is giving an unfair/unsportsmanlike advantage. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[[110]xJammer]

Just now, SCG_Wulfe said:

TrackIR is external software and hardware that augments your ability to turn your head in ways you cannot without it. Should it be banned or limited as well? 

 

 

TrackIR uses dev-supported protocol to interact with the game. Migoto uses DirectX injection, in a similar manner to how wallhacks in FPS shooters work.

[SCG_Wulfe]

5 minutes ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

TrackIR uses dev-supported protocol to interact with the game. Migoto uses DirectX injection, in a similar manner to how wallhacks in FPS shooters work.

 

Discord is an external piece of software that was not built into the original game by the devs. It augments performance beyond that allowed by the base game. By your logic, it is also not pure and should be banned.

 

External software by it's existence does not necessitate a ban or a problem. It is only the case if it is giving an unfair/unsportsmanlike advantage. (which a wallhack would do)

 

Turning the argument into external software/non integrated software = unacceptable... is a disingenuous and illogical argument. A reasonable argument is that an unfair advantage=unfair. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[HunDread]

1 hour ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

Its a mindset of getting the hardware that works with the game vs. forcing the game to work with their hardware through some nefarious and non-TOS compliant ways.

 

But actually this discussion helped me to solidify my POV on this matter. Yes migoto is a cheat, on par with those invulnerability or speed hacks we have seen in the past. Not from the POV of what it does, but from the POV that it is a 3rd party software that enhances player's performance outside of the game permitted values. 

 

Migoto should be banned ASAP and the injection methods should be reviewed to prevent similar software from using them in the future. Adding a simple "if VR then max_zoom = 2 * normal_zoom" for the devs should be much easier than having to hijack the game to do the same.

 

See, for some time I thought we were doing a discussion with arguments but as soon as it's gong the wrong way you edit your post and there's nothing left but picking up the transparents and shout "should be banned it's a cheat, should be banned it's  cheat"

 

I should have been used to this but it's still not easy.

[Beazil]

Just now, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

TrackIR uses dev-supported protocol to interact with the game. Migoto uses DirectX injection, in a similar manner to how wallhacks in FPS shooters work.

It's not a "wallhack".  

[[110]xJammer]

Just now, JG51_Beazil said:

It's not a "wallhack".  

 

 

Yeah, its an FOV hack  

 

As I have previously stated, I see no issues with the devs supporting a version of this themselves. But the fact that you need to use an external code injection to make it work... is a hack. This same injection vector can be used for much more than just FOV hacks, and nothing stops anyone from modding migoto to do more than just hacking the FOV slider...

 

Edit: Actually the fact that it can remove the prop is 100% a hack. At this point one might as well make their cockpit transparent

Edited May 5, 2020 by [110]xJammer

[SCG_Wulfe]

1 minute ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

Yeah, its an FOV hack  

 

As I have previously stated, I see no issues with the devs supporting a version of this themselves. But the fact that you need to use an external code injection to make it work... is a hack. This same injection vector can be used for much more than just FOV hacks, and nothing stops anyone from modding migoto to do more than just hacking the FOV slider...

 

Again, using logic...if you see there are no issues with the devs supporting a version of this themselves, then it cannot be that it is imparting an unfair advantage. 

 

If your argument is that it could in theory be manipulated to provide unfair advantages by a hacker, I would argue that the existence of a game allows that opportunity to begin with. Modifying game files with the intent to gain an unfair and unsportsmanlike advantage is already forbidden. 

[Beazil]

2 minutes ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

Yeah, its an FOV hack  

 

As I have previously stated, I see no issues with the devs supporting a version of this themselves. But the fact that you need to use an external code injection to make it work... is a hack. This same injection vector can be used for much more than just FOV hacks, and nothing stops anyone from modding migoto to do more than just hacking the FOV slider...

 

Edit: Actually the fact that it can remove the prop is 100% a hack. At this point one might as well make their cockpit transparent

Whatever.  

 

 

[HunDread]

10 minutes ago, [110]xJammer said:

Edit: Actually the fact that it can remove the prop is 100% a hack. At this point one might as well make their cockpit transparent

 

Just out of curiosity - do you know why it was possible to remove the prop?

[Beazil]

Just now, HunDread said:

 

Just out of curiosity - do you know why it was possible to remove the prop?

Does it really matter in the context of this discussion?  

We know why it was removable.

xJammer probably does too.  It's all over this and many other threads.  Ignoring that information does not make the reason for it's use go away.  Even if it is irrelevant to the conversation.

 

Invisible planes.  Please.

[HunDread]

3 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Does it really matter in the context of this discussion?  

We know why it was removable.

xJammer probably does too.  It's all over this and many other threads.  Ignoring that information does not make the reason for it's use go away.  Even if it is irrelevant to the conversation.

 

Invisible planes.  Please.

 

Yeah not sure. It's just that people take some facts and twist them in a way to support the claim this is evil itself while it's clear there was no intention of gaining any advantage with that or any other features.

[Beazil]

Which is exactly what this circle jerk has turned into.  I had hoped we were all past that.

[Voyager]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve worn a VR headset. What you see is obviously life sized. A small monitor is like a little window looking into a small 3D world. Yes it’s hard to compare but you realize the average monitor size is probably not that large. Zoomed-In is not actually as egregious as you make it out to be. 
Moving your head closer to the screen doesn’t “zoom in” since you’re just seeing larger pixels and people really don’t sit that close. 
 

What this discussion is making apparent is just how poor VR headset resolution really is. If it needs a 10x magnification, it’s just not ready for flight sims yet. Sure it will improve and perhaps that’s why the Devs limited the VR zoom, anticipating that it will improve and not wanting to overdo it and then have to bring it back down. 

 

I'm probably going to have to write a paper on resolution, resolvability and the ability to identify objects, but the short answer is 60 pixels per degree is the resolution limit of the human eye. If you are using a 4K monitor, and using a Field of View of 64*36 degrees, you should be at about that, without zoom. In that context, zooming is, in fact, giving you a higher effective visual acuity than the human eye can achieve.

 

Current high resolution VR Headsets are running at about 10-20 pixels per degree. Given that, it is reasonably possible to make an argument that Zoom shouldn't be permitted in 2D display mode any more, now that monitors have reach a point of equivalent or greater than equivalent to human resolution, and a recommendation that the zoom factor should in future be scaled to the users per pixel FoV, however that is a much deeper structural argument than this threat would cover.

 

I.e. the base game itself may be cheating, and allowing multi-zoom may simply be exacerbating an underlying problem. That said, we then get into spot size (optical, separate from game dot size), blur and a lot of optics stuff way beyond the original topic.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Voyager
Holy triple post Batman!

[Alonzo]

4 hours ago, [110]xJammer said:

Its a mindset of getting the hardware that works with the game vs. forcing the game to work with their hardware through some nefarious and non-TOS compliant ways.

 

But actually this discussion helped me to solidify my POV on this matter. Yes migoto is a cheat, on par with those invulnerability or speed hacks we have seen in the past. Not from the POV of what it does, but from the POV that it is a 3rd party software that enhances player's performance outside of the game permitted values. 

 

Migoto should be banned ASAP and the injection methods should be reviewed to prevent similar software from using them in the future. Adding a simple "if VR then max_zoom = 2 * normal_zoom" for the devs should be much easier than having to hijack the game to do the same.

 

Data points for you.

1. 2D built-in zoom is 5x, VR built-in zoom is 1.5x
2. 2D allows snap-180 check six view (see N3croo's videos), VR does not (I've tried the VR "180 snap turn", it doesn't work for anything other than sightseeing and flying straight and level)
3. ReShade is allowed by the developers and massively increases contrast, enabling better spotting.

Would you agree, by your own criteria, that ReShade is also a cheat and should not be allowed? Because it has been explicitly okayed by the developers.

 

Not meaning to argue with you Jammer, but you think carefully about stuff and I just think your logic is disjointed here.

[Barnacles]

3 hours ago, JG51_Beazil said:

 

 

As an aside, you need this as your avatar.

 

 

Done. ?

 

[Beazil]

Yes!!!

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, HunDread said:

Being huge and life-sized does not help, only for immersion. This is why I told you to try and view your monitor close-up. You will see a life-sized picture too but won't help you ID. And I mean this just as an experiment not tryig to say you should play that way. 

I understand the resolution issue. Really since HMDs and monitors both have similar resolutions, they should probably have similar zoom levels. I’m just trying to figure why the Devs set VR at 1.5x

[Barnacles]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I understand the resolution issue. Really since HMDs and monitors both have similar resolutions, they should probably have similar zoom levels. I’m just trying to figure why the Devs set VR at 1.5x

They don't though (have similar resolutions)

 

Quoting Voyager, that's a lot less than a 4k monitor. (And that's the high res VR sets.)

 

2 hours ago, Voyager said:

 

Current high resolution VR Headsets are running at about 10-20 pixels per degree.

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by 71st_AH_Barnacles

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Voyager said:

If you are using a 4K monitor, and using a Field of View of 64*36 degrees, you should be at about that, without zoom. In that context, zooming is, in fact, giving you a higher effective visual acuity than the human eye can achieve.

The 32” 4K monitor I’m looking at is definitely not the equivalent of real 20/20 eyesight. In size or resolution. 

[SCG_Wulfe]

42 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I understand the resolution issue. Really since HMDs and monitors both have similar resolutions, they should probably have similar zoom levels. I’m just trying to figure why the Devs set VR at 1.5x

 

From what I have heard through the grapevine, it may have had to do with performance issues. Issues that they couldn't overcome at the time to allow zooming more than 1.5x with stereoscopic vision. If this is true, it would explain the relative silence and acceptance of the 3dmigoto mod. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[Voyager]

34 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The 32” 4K monitor I’m looking at is definitely not the equivalent of real 20/20 eyesight. In size or resolution. 

Quite possibly true, but verifying that assertion requires formalized testing, and some additional analysis separate from the pixel resolution. And I wonder you have it calibrated to the correct field of view. 

 

Further I can see that a case could be made for a minimum of 120 pixels per degree, despite the eye's 60 pixel per degree limit to account for the digitization issue. If the raw optical problem was resolved, one could test for it by setting the FoV to 32*18 degrees at 4K and setting the 32" monitor at the right distance to subtend that angel do your vision (can't quite do the trig in my head lol) and then seeing if you could discern bar targets to the same acuity as your naked vision but without also first looking at the effective blur disk, it wouldn't be entirely comparable. 

 

It's complicated I know just enough of the optics and signal theory behind it to be dangerous, but it will take some research to put it together into a functional theory of simulator vision.

[Creep]

5 hours ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

I have HTC Vive. Its not competitive in MP, but is a great experience in SP. I do not plan to use external software to augment my performance in VR for it to become competitive in MP however.

You admit that it is not competitive, and yet you believe using a third party program to make it marginally more competitive is cheating.

 

Fascinating.

4 hours ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

TrackIR uses dev-supported protocol to interact with the game. Migoto uses DirectX injection, in a similar manner to how wallhacks in FPS shooters work.

I'm starting to think you're just trolling.

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

I think we need a poll: cheat or no cheat!

[[DBS]Browning]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The 32” 4K monitor I’m looking at is definitely not the equivalent of real 20/20 eyesight. In size or resolution. 

 

It is. 

Or rather it can be, depending on your eyes distance from the screen and the fov. 

For an extreme example, if the FOV is set to something like 2 degrees on a screen that is 32 inches wide, then the image will be life sized when your eyes are approximately 23 meters away. 

At a resolution of 1080p, each pixel takes up about 6 arc seconds. The human eye can't resolve anything smaller than 28 arc seconds. 

So in this extreme example, even a basic monitor is both life sized and much sharper than 20/20 eyesight. 

 

For a more practical ecample:

Let's take a 32 inch screen (71cm wide) with a resolution of 4k (3840px wide). with a user sitting at arms length (60cm) from the screen and looking at IL2.

In this situation an FOV of 50 degrees would render the image life size (although this would appear zoomed to most people as a typical fov is 70-90. Zoomed all the way out, il2 is somewhere in that range).

The angular width of each pixel is 0.0128 degrees or 46 arc seconds. 

 

The oculus rift has an FOV fixed at 94 degrees and a resolution of 1080, giving it a pixel width of 0.087 degrees or 313 arc seconds. 

 

So to have parity in terms of simple pixel width, the rift would have to have have 7x more zoom than the 4k screen. 

 

However, it's important to note a couple of things. Firstly, that isn't necessarily a good way of judging things. There are many more factors that should be considered. Secondly I've compared a high end screen to a somewhat low end VR set. 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by [DBS]Browning

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

On 5/4/2020 at 6:04 PM, Alonzo said:

180 snap views in 2D are a big advantage and VR players have no equivalent. That's unfair.

 

First of all, i don't mind the migoto mod and i know that you don't want to have snap views removed from the game as far as i know.

 

However comparing these two things bugs me a bit. Nobody is forced to play in VR. If someone feels like they have an advantage in 2d they can always switch back to it if they use VR. This does not work the other way, at least not for the vast majority of players. This doesn't mean that VR shouldn't be competitive of course.

 

In the end i think that a lot of this discussion is wasted and blown out of proportion. Spotting improvements and further VR development should be on everyone agenda and i am convinced that the migoto mod will get adjusted or made obsolete at some point or another.  

[Beazil]

11 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

First of all, i don't mind the migoto mod and i know that you don't want to have snap views removed from the game as far as i know.

 

However comparing these two things bugs me a bit. Nobody is forced to play in VR. If someone feels like they have an advantage in 2d they can always switch back to it if they use VR. This does not work the other way, at least not for the vast majority of players. This doesn't mean that VR shouldn't be competitive of course.

 

In the end i think that a lot of this discussion is wasted and blown out of proportion. Spotting improvements and further VR development should be on everyone agenda and i am convinced that the migoto mod will get adjusted or made obsolete at some point or another.  

Your final point is absolutely spot on.

I really hope we can do something about people's perception on this because I'm seeing meltdowns everywhere on the forums over this issue, and a ton of misinformation.

Like what appears to be the perception that it is an ADVANTAGE to fly in VR.  It is not.  It is more immersive.  It also has limitations.  Ask anyone with a 1st generation headset what they think of the field of view for example.

It is more immersive in the same way a moving car simulator is more fun than playing a racing game on your xbox controller or whatever reasonable facsimili you wish to use.

 

It's the same reason some of us have large screen tv's and/or triple screen setups.  Some like a curved display, etc.

All user preference.  

Edited May 5, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[SCG_Wulfe]

Ok, Here we go.

 

I took a photo at as close as I could get to being the same distance and angle on both a monitor with the max in-game zoom, and on a Samsung Odyssey + VR headset with the 3dmigoto 10X zoom.  The VR photo was taken through the actual lens of my VR headset.  You can see how the 10X zoom massively blows up the icon text comparatively. However the actual contact looks pretty darn similar. 

 

Lets see what this "cheat" looks like head to head.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[Tycoon]

31 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Ok, Here we go.

 

I took a photo at as close as I could get to being the same distance and angle on both a monitor with the max in-game zoom, and on a Samsung Odyssey + VR headset with the 3dmigoto 10X zoom.  The VR photo was taken through the actual lens of my VR headset.  You can see how the 10X zoom massively blows up the icon text comparatively. However the actual contact looks pretty darn similar. 

 

Lets see what this "cheat" looks like head to head.

 

 

Could you post a screenshot of migoto zoom and in game vr zoom used together in vr?

[[DBS]Browning]

36 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Ok, Here we go.

 

[...]

 

Did you take the 2d screen photo from a normal seated distance from the screen?

[SCG_Wulfe]

I took the 2d screen photo from a screen shot. Regardless, it will vary drastically in size based on resolution. The main thing we need to evaluate is if there is any extra detail level being displayed. 

 

 

Here is a photo including the 3d migoto stacked with 1.5x zoom

 

You can see the in-game zoom has a built in compensation for the icon which serves to shrink it compared to the zoomed contact. 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[Alonzo]

1 hour ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

Nobody is forced to play in VR. If someone feels like they have an advantage in 2d they can always switch back to it if they use VR. This does not work the other way, at least not for the vast majority of players. This doesn't mean that VR shouldn't be competitive of course.

 

In the end i think that a lot of this discussion is wasted and blown out of proportion. Spotting improvements and further VR development should be on everyone agenda and i am convinced that the migoto mod will get adjusted or made obsolete at some point or another.  

 

Well, maaaybe they can switch back. For me, I came from Elite Dangerous where I'd gotten used to VR, and so I started my IL2 journey in VR in the first place. I actually don't have a functioning head tracker, so it's basically VR or nothing for me. The reason that I fly in VR is for the immersion factor. I built a cheap wooden rig to bolt all my stuff to in order to increase the immersion, and I don't have a swivel chair to make six checking easier, again because "muh immershun." So yes, those choices I have made myself. I believe VR pilots generally have an easier time of high deflection gunnery because the depth perception makes it easier, so in certain cases it might be an advantage. But overall, yep, it's a disadvantage that we accept because the immersion is adrenaline inducing and a lot of fun.

 

VR is also still somewhat in its infancy and while the display tech is workable it's got a long way to go. It's like looking through a low resolution scuba mask. It's very frustrating to have a bunch of pancake players attack a mod that we're using to help make VR at least somewhat competitive in multiplayer. Even with this mod, VR pilots are at a disadvantage to monitor players.

 

To your second point, this thread is absolutely full of hot air. You're exactly right.

[Beazil]

WokeUpDead posted a beauty response in another thread that actually shows migoto and VR zoom stacked.  

 

What is happening is that stacking is what geramos was seeing in HIS video!

 

It's supposed to work that way for everyone, but as my experience from my  video shows, it doesn't always work the way intended.  I could only get in game VR zoom working with migoto in VR and did not have it (VR zoom) set up in my videos.  As I already went on and on about, if you enable parallell projections (on MY headset anyway) it will stack.

 

I was never able to do what Geramos was able to in his videos.  I can't reproduce it myself in non-VR mode.

 

Geramos appears to have got it working in non VR mode.  The way it is supposed to work (if you want to stack zooms).

Because not everyone is seeing this, I guarantee that is the reason for the freakouts.  It would make perfect sense to me.

Edited May 5, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[SCG_Wulfe]

 

 

I would argue that based on the screenshots I posted, we would be best served by limiting to VR use only and 7x zoom, stackable with 1.5x for a total of 10.5x zoom.

 

that should be pretty darn fair.

Edited May 5, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[WokeUpDead]

59 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

WokeUpDead posted a beauty response in another thread that actually shows migoto and VR zoom stacked.  

 

What is happening is that stacking is what geramos was seeing in HIS video!

 

It's supposed to work that way for everyone, but as my experience from my  video shows, it doesn't always work the way intended.  I could only get in game VR zoom working with migoto in VR and did not have it (VR zoom) set up in my videos.  As I already went on and on about, if you enable parallell projections (on MY headset anyway) it will stack.

 

I was never able to do what Geramos was able to in his videos.  I can't reproduce it myself in non-VR mode.

 

Geramos appears to have got it working in non VR mode.  The way it is supposed to work (if you want to stack zooms).

Because not everyone is seeing this, I guarantee that is the reason for the freakouts.  It would make perfect sense to me.

 

For reference, taken a few seconds apart on a 2D monitor (not VR):

 

Game max zoom:

 

Migoto max zoom stacked with game max zoom:

 

Compare this to the zooms in Wulfe's screenshots and it's apparent that this mod could be a huge advantage/cheat for 2D players, but not so much for VR players especially if the next edition limits the zoom to a little less than 10x.

[Velxra]

34 minutes ago, WokeUpDead said:

 

For reference, taken a few seconds apart on a 2D monitor (not VR):

 

 

This ^

For VR the mod is necessary. For monitor users it is simply too game breaking with the zoom feature. If the monitor version of the mod did not include the zoom feature then everything would be fine. When the next game update releases then everyone will need the latest mod version. Thus problem solved and there will be much rejoicing. 

[SCG_Wulfe]

Finally, here are all 4 zooms, including the default 1.5x zoom. You can see how much of a joke it is to suggest "we just live with it'"

 

 

 

[[DBS]Browning]

7 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Finally, here are all 4 zooms, including the default 1.5x zoom. You can see how much of a joke it is to suggest "we just live with it'"

 

 

 

 

I aplaud the effort, however this tells us more about your camera than it does about the game or the mod. 

If the camera you used had twice the resolution, the images from vr would appear twice as big, but the 2d screenshot would be the same. 

 

This makes it an unfair comparison. 

 

To get a fair comparison, a photo must be taken for VR and 2d in such a way that the camera is where the player's eye would be for each. 

[SCG_Wulfe]

12 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

I aplaud the effort, however this tells us more about your camera than it does about the game or the mod. 

If the camera you used had twice the resolution, the images from vr would appear twice as big, but the 2d screenshot would be the same. 

 

This makes it an unfair comparison. 

 

To get a fair comparison, a photo must be taken for VR and 2d in such a way that the camera is where the player's eye would be for each. 

Once again, we are not really comparing the size of the aircraft. We are comparing the resolution between all the shots and ability to discern what aircraft we are looking at. The resolution of your monitor will determine the physical size on screen.

Edited May 6, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[[DBS]Browning]

7 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Once again, we are not really comparing the size of the aircraft. We are comparing the resolution between all the shots and ability to what discern aircraft we are looking at. The resolution of your monitor will determine the physical size on screen.

 

You are right. It is a fair comparison for that. 

[Velxra]

1 hour ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Once again, we are not really comparing the size of the aircraft. We are comparing the resolution between all the shots and ability to what discern aircraft we are looking at. The resolution of your monitor will determine the physical size on screen.

 

There is also another camera angle that no one has mentioned yet. That is exterior view. 

As we can see here. The PE-2s are very visible in the exterior view from the same angle as the pilot. But from the pilot's view they are in fact smaller or thinner. When we zoom in by about 3x in the pilot's view planes will become a larger size and will be visible from a far distance. So our true issue is how the game scales planes from the first person perspective. I would honestly prefer zero scaling like exterior view offers as the solution to our true issue, which is poor spotting.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Geronimo553