Migoto Is a Cheat. Devs please Ban this!

[Tycoon]

2 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Not for me.  I just tried it again and it didn't work, but like I said in my prior post it might work if I keep trying.  

3d migoto requires some tweaking to get working.  There are convergence separations for each headset at low/med/high for each user.  Trouble is even two guys with the same headset can have dramatically different settings already.  So while Fenris, for example has a great thread on the mod with some pre configured setups already, most users wind up having to adjust these separation settings one at a time.  It's a little cumbersome and takes time to get right or your image is horrifically garbled.  On the plus side it's a godsend when set up properly.

I also have a whole boatload of different settings on the pimax itself at different resolutions to tweak, software in steamvr and Nvidia tweaks to work with.  It's a lot.  When it's messed up it doesn't work and so far I haven't been able to get them to play nice together - in game VR zoom and 3d migoto that is.  It works, just not well.

Well don't  bust your system just to test this, someone probably has it working and could show I hope. 

[Beazil]

I've had some success.  If I enable parallel projections and set 3d migoto mod I can double up the zoom.  It's awkward.  I'm grabbing some offline footage now.

Best thing to do I think would be to grab a squaddie or willing participant, get them to spawn on an opposing field, climb to the appropriate distance to observe and film/communicate what you see.  Any takers?

[E69_geramos109]

4 hours ago, QB.Creep said:

 

I wrote up and revised my response several times trying to approach this diplomatically after reading through the thread. I gave up.

 

You're wrong. VR handicaps the players that use it even with 3dMigoto, but it is more fun to use. And that is why we use it. Please stop speaking about things you do not understand. 

At least you have the choice. I can buy a better monitor as well and I can buy VR or whatever I want but the game software MUST be the same for everyone. There will be allways some advantage. Maybe you have better joy, better pedals, a window that is disturbing you but the game shoud not compansate handicaps making different features for any kind of group. We must have same sofware and the rest depends from us. 

[Beazil]

If there is a middle ground though, I think we found it.  I'm testing and will report/post back what I find.  I'm sure there are sharper minds on this than mine.

[von_Tom]

6 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

...but the game shoud not compansate handicaps making different features for any kind of group. We must have same sofware and the rest depends from us. 

 

Weeee I got sucked back in.

 

I agree with this in principle, but how can that be "fair" on those that are handicapped by the software?  What if the software as programmed gives an advantage to a certain group - should it be restricted?  If you can ensure that the software as programmed allows the same spotting distance, distance to be able to identify, and restrictions on in-cockpit visibility for 2D and VR then I'd be all for it.

 

Or, make sure that alternate visibility is off because that is just too much.

 

von Tom

[Beazil]

I just got it to work double zoom.  Now I am disabling in game zoom.  The reason?  When I am able to double zoom in my framerates drop to single digits.  At least online.  Offline it worked a bit smoother but I never put myself in a position to watch ea taking off ( I don't know how to do that in the quick mission builder and I'm inept with the full builder).  What I can tell you is it killed my framerate to the point of being unusable.  I don't know if that was enabling paralell projections that does that or what but it appears to be key to making it work together.  Maybe someone else can get it to function.  I think that's one of the main reasons I disabled it the first time.  Running a 8700k here paired with a 2080 vanilla and 16gigs at 5.0ghz.  

When it does work it's actually too high and jittery to be useful and turned things into a slide show.  Practically I'd choose one or the other.  If it's too much zoom (and it likely is) maybe it should be neutered, but at time if you actually want to fly like that, go nuts.  Fisheyed jittery fun.  Like holding a magnifying glass to your old TV, but making it hop around lots. Or like driving with binoculars and stuttering.

Edited May 3, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[Beazil]

5 hours ago, Tycoon said:

So ingame vr zoom affect doesn't work with migoto without messing up vr view?

 

 

 

 

This is comparing vr 10x migoto zoom with max 2d zoom.

 

 

 

 

Obviously no advantage as far as zoom goes here, would just like to see it tacked on with ingame vr zoom then everything will have been shown here. I'm sure anyone with vr could post a screenshot, shouldn't be too hard.

I'm sure your sick of me talking now, but  I don't think the disparity is that severe.  Max zoom in with migoto/vr and normal (non vr) zoom is pretty similar.  The images for left/right are swapped in the image taken from my VR footage and compared it actually looks like a mirror image.  I don't know why it turned out that way.  Thank you for posting that comparison Tycoon.  

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

6 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Al menos tienes la opción. También puedo comprar un monitor mejor y puedo comprar VR o lo que quiera, pero el software del juego DEBE ser el mismo para todos. Siempre habrá alguna ventaja. Tal vez tengas una mejor alegría, mejores pedales, una ventana que te está molestando, pero el juego no debe ser una desventaja comparativa que haga diferentes características para cualquier tipo de grupo. Debemos tener el mismo software y el resto depende de nosotros. 

 

I agree, it is time that the developers put the same zoom in VR as those of the monitor. in DCS they already have it implemented like that and it's going great

Edited May 3, 2020 by Ala13_UnopaUno_VR

[[DBS]Browning]

7 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

At least you have the choice. I can buy a better monitor as well and I can buy VR or whatever I want but the game software MUST be the same for everyone. There will be allways some advantage. Maybe you have better joy, better pedals, a window that is disturbing you but the game shoud not compansate handicaps making different features for any kind of group. We must have same sofware and the rest depends from us. 

 

There is, I suspect, software that changes what you see on screen, but would not be considered a cheat by you. 

For example:

The Reshade mod, which has been promoted by Jason in the past, makes all kinds of changes to the games appearance, some of which offer slight advantages. 

ATI and Nvidia also offer shader suites similar to reshade as well as non-shader sharpen filters. 

Teamspeak and discord can both display extra information on the screen that gives a communication advantage. 

The game outputs some telemetry for the sole purpose of it being used by software modifications that allow motion platforms to run. 

 

An outright ban on any software that changes what you see or experience in-game is an appealingly simple solution. However the reality is less simple and unless you want to ban all storts of legitimate software, you must come up with reasons why some software is ok and other software is not. 

[E69_geramos109]

11 hours ago, von_Tom said:

 

Weeee I got sucked back in.

 

I agree with this in principle, but how can that be "fair" on those that are handicapped by the software?  What if the software as programmed gives an advantage to a certain group - should it be restricted?  If you can ensure that the software as programmed allows the same spotting distance, distance to be able to identify, and restrictions on in-cockpit visibility for 2D and VR then I'd be all for it.

 

Or, make sure that alternate visibility is off because that is just too much.

 

von Tom

Then you should complain to devs so they will hear the comunity to find a solution like people with monitor is doing since the visibility path. 

3 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

There is, I suspect, software that changes what you see on screen, but would not be considered a cheat by you. 

For example:

The Reshade mod, which has been promoted by Jason in the past, makes all kinds of changes to the games appearance, some of which offer slight advantages. 

ATI and Nvidia also offer shader suites similar to reshade as well as non-shader sharpen filters. 

Teamspeak and discord can both display extra information on the screen that gives a communication advantage. 

The game outputs some telemetry for the sole purpose of it being used by software modifications that allow motion platforms to run. 

 

An outright ban on any software that changes what you see or experience in-game is an appealingly simple solution. However the reality is less simple and unless you want to ban all storts of legitimate software, you must come up with reasons why some software is ok and other software is not. 

I have no Idea about how reshade works so I dont know. If you think it changes some cracy things to spot better then you can make a post complaining about that. I figured out about migoto working like that not too much time ago. 

I thought reshade just change some colors as you can do with your monitor set up etc. Am I wrong? Is not adding any different mechanic in to the game

[[DBS]Browning]

9 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

I thought reshade just change some colors as you can do with your monitor set up etc. Am I wrong? Is not adding any different mechanic in to the game

 

There is a very wide variety of things that can be done with reshade. You could write a zoom shader into it if you wanted.

Like migoto, it doesn't add any new mechanics, it just changes how the image is rendered. I have no complaints about either.

[Lusekofte]

This is a issue only for people looking at it as a competition. 
I cannot comprehend what the problem is at all. 
I know spotting suck for all, like in other sim , some are still better at it than others. 
A pilot serving in Malta was known for this skill, became an ace and flew for Israel after the war. A Canadian I think. 
Anyway, spotting was hard in real life, I find size of targets in a distance to be part of the problem. Both aerial and groundtargets are smaller than what we see in guncams. What we see just when we are about to slam into the target, Typhoon climb away with 100 meter clearing  

 

[NiiranenVR]

Away from subject , I read about him and an interesting man : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Beurling

[von_Tom]

1 hour ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Then you should complain to devs so they will hear the comunity to find a solution 

Nah. I don’t like it that folks with Track IR avoid my attacks with their owl necks, Or that others can gain an advantage via practice by being online a lot more, as that’s just the way it goes.

 

Ultra competitive  players will always do what they can to get an advantage and provided they stay within what is permitted then good for them. 
 

There are more things in life to worry about than  a perceived but irrelevant “advantage” in a computer game. 
 

von Tom

[Cathaoir]

Well I use Reshade because I a red-green color blind...It helps with seeing things close to the ground and over the trees....but on topic I think everyone who shoots me down with vr or monitor, with mod or not should be banned...there I said it...

[Beazil]

45 minutes ago, Cathaoir said:

Well I use Reshade because I a red-green color blind...It helps with seeing things close to the ground and over the trees....but on topic I think everyone who shoots me down with vr or monitor, with mod or not should be banned...there I said it...

I can get behind that.

[JG1_Wittmann]

On 5/1/2020 at 11:23 PM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Some information on what will happen:

 

It seems that the zoom mod will not be made to work for monitors after the next patch.

 

Everyone will be forced to upgrade the mod, as the Devs have stated in the devblog that they will switch to deferred rendering. That disables the mod entirely, and any old version of it too.

 

It will only remain for VR users then. 

 

So, both sides won.

 

 

Now you guys can get a tea (Sharpe a pint of oil) and stop the discussion.

 

Fenris,   do you fly with VR or a monitor ?     If I go in game, and use the max migoto zoom,  on a monitor,   or use the max in game zoom for a monitor,   the migoto zoom is double the zoom.

 

So if it is removed from 2d users, how is it that both sides win ?     I would say the better solution is to remove the in game zoom in zoom out, and leave the migoto zoom, 3 levels, for all users that way there can be no argument

[Creep]

On 5/2/2020 at 9:39 PM, E69_geramos109 said:

At least you have the choice. I can buy a better monitor as well and I can buy VR or whatever I want but the game software MUST be the same for everyone. There will be allways some advantage. Maybe you have better joy, better pedals, a window that is disturbing you but the game shoud not compansate handicaps making different features for any kind of group. We must have same sofware and the rest depends from us. 

You’re missing the point. People in VR are simply not as competitive as people using TrackIR - no two ways about it. If anything, you should be complaining about making the experience better for people in VR - not advocating for the removal of a tool that brings some measure of parity for identifying other aircraft.

 

And side note, there are some very easy reshade settings you can apply that make the game look like a negative exposure. With that applied you can very easily spot a contact anywhere in the sky. Go complain about that garbage before you say another word about 3dMigoto please.

[Velxra]

Speaking of VR gameplay, have the devs fixed the ability for VR users to stick their heads outside the cockpit? You know placing their entire vision outside the cockpit through the glass and everything like it's not even there. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Geronimo553

[[DBS]Browning]

44 minutes ago, Geronimo553 said:

Speaking of VR gameplay, have the devs fixed the ability for VR users to stick their heads outside the cockpit? You know placing their entire vision outside the cockpit through the glass and everything like it's not even there. 

 

This has always been a difficulty setting AFAIK. 

[SCG_Wulfe]

8 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

Speaking of VR gameplay, have the devs fixed the ability for VR users to stick their heads outside the cockpit? You know placing their entire vision outside the cockpit through the glass and everything like it's not even there. 

 

This has just turned into a mess of disinformation. That is not possible for VR users anymore than it is possible for any other user. If the server has cockpit boundaries turned off (no commonly flown servers do except for Berloga) then you can stick your head through the sides of your aircraft. Once again, none of the mainstream servers have this turned off except for Berloga.

[Alonzo]

On 5/2/2020 at 5:24 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

There is software as well to do that with Vr. For me is not an equivalent argument becuase track ir ca not improve the technology or devs can do nothing to change that. You are allways limited because your monitor is on your front. But with VR devs can give an equivalent zoom to Vr and Vrs can improve the technology for more definition (Already are really good Vrs)

On the other hand you would need a Cinema screen to see what you can see with Migoto X10 zoom

If that happens then Will be 2 kind of players Vr that would have and advantage on the Game with ID contacts and monitor users. VR players with one of the latest glasses will be able to install the mod and use it as a cheat as well

 

There is no in-game software to do 180 snap views in VR. Have you seen what you can do with a snap view in 2D? Snap 180 check six with the headrest not obstructing your view at all. It's crazy. The out of game hacks to do 180 snap view do not work for anyone actually in a dogfight. The snap turn alters your head's center position so you constantly need to recenter your view. It basically doesn't work, I've tested it extensively.

 

Yet again, you're making an argument knowing nothing about how the VR solution actually works. What a bunch of hot air.

 

180 snap views in 2D are a big advantage and VR players have no equivalent. That's unfair.

3D Migoto mod that allows VR players enough zoom to actually ID things is very similar to in-game 2D zoom. That seems fair to me.

[Barnacles]

9 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

Speaking of VR gameplay, have the devs fixed the ability for VR users to stick their heads outside the cockpit? You know placing their entire vision outside the cockpit through the glass and everything like it's not even there. 

I don't think that's ever been possible, if the server owner has disabled it in the difficulty settings.

 

1 minute ago, Alonzo said:

 

There is no in-game software to do 180 snap views in VR. Have you seen what you can do with a snap view in 2D? Snap 180 check six with the headrest not obstructing your view at all. It's crazy. The out of game hacks to do 180 snap view do not work for anyone actually in a dogfight. The snap turn alters your head's center position so you constantly need to recenter your view. It basically doesn't work, I've tested it extensively.

 

Yet again, you're making an argument knowing nothing about how the VR solution actually works. What a bunch of hot air.

 

180 snap views in 2D are a big advantage and VR players have no equivalent. That's unfair.

3D Migoto mod that allows VR players enough zoom to actually ID things is very similar to in-game 2D zoom. That seems fair to me.

A friend of a friend told me that they know someone who got turned into a newt by a VR player.

[Beazil]

4 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

 

A friend of a friend told me that they know someone who got turned into a newt by a VR player.

Pesky sorcerers.

[Alonzo]

3 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

A friend of a friend told me that they know someone who got turned into a newt by a VR player.

 

VR players are all flagrant members of the vulgar materialistic bourgeoisie and should only exist in-game to give the proleteriat -- society's only means of useful production -- something to shoot at. They should be encumbered with as many disadvantages as possible and will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

[Barnacles]

2 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

VR players are all flagrant members of the vulgar materialistic bourgeoisie and should only exist in-game to give the proleteriat -- society's only means of useful production -- something to shoot at. They should be encumbered with as many disadvantages as possible and will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

That would be a start..

 

[KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82]

On 4/30/2020 at 4:28 PM, HerrBree said:

How can people seriously compare this to Trackir?

 

Because they have no arguments, period.

 

TrackIR is simulating a real life head movement.

But 50x zoom is simulating what again??

 

I life near an little airfield. If anybody can spot a plane (fighter size, cessna size) beyond 10km on good weather conditions, I will buy him bavarian beer.

And thats against the horizon/sky.

No way that someone could spot a 10m x 14m plane from 38km far away against the ground.

[[DBS]Browning]

No one has 50x and no one is spotting planes from 38k away (without alt-vis on).

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Alonzo said:

180 snap views in 2D are a big advantage and VR players have no equivalent. That's unfair.

There will always be snap views in these sims so this “unfairness” will always exist. 

Maybe they can add a command like this for VR?
I figure a reason for limits on VR such as the zoom level and maybe snap views is that players would just make themselves sick, but they would feel at a disadvantage if they didn’t use these and then are forced to be sick playing. I don’t know but it’s a guess. I imagine the zoom view in VR has to be quite disorienting.

Edited May 4, 2020 by SharpeXB

[SCG_Wulfe]

1 hour ago, KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82 said:

 

Because they have no arguments, period.

 

TrackIR is simulating a real life head movement.

But 50x zoom is simulating what again??

 

I life near an little airfield. If anybody can spot a plane (fighter size, cessna size) beyond 10km on good weather conditions, I will buy him bavarian beer.

And thats against the horizon/sky.

No way that someone could spot a 10m x 14m plane from 38km far away against the ground.

 

 

You are completely misrepresenting the VR with zoom mod argument.

 

I will break it down in point form to simplify our actual argument: 

 

 

1 - The purpose of the VR zoom is not to spot. (It does not render planes that would not have rendered without zoom.) 

 

 

2 - None of us are using it to spot planes from far away. It would not help with that as it focuses on a tiny portion of sky. (We use it to help ID planes that we have already spotted organically with no zoom)

 

 

3 - VR has much lower apparent resolution than a monitor. (This makes Identification of contacts more difficult than it is on a crisp monitor) - note: I say identification, not spotting . We still see the blurry object of an aircraft, we just can't make out what it is.

 

 

4 - The base in-game zoom for monitor users is 5x, the base in-game zoom for VR players is 1.5x zoom (so not only do we have a blurrier picture, we can't even zoom in as far as monitor players)

 

 

5 - The purpose of the 10x zoom in the mod (not the 50x zoom you stated) is to help us overcome the lower apparent resolution of a VR headset and ID contacts we have already spotted. The aim is to achieve approximate parity of identification ability with a monitor player. 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[von_Tom]

I’m thinking this is a pointless discussion now going round and round in circles. 
 

Those in VR have mostly had the experience of 2D so we can compare.  Best for those using 2D to try VR normally and with this mod before complaining about how it impacts VR and gameability.
 

If they can’t get to try VR then that sucks but then it is really all hot air and wasted angst.

 

This isn’t to diminish the potential merits of some kind of change, but this whole thread is in a Lufberry turn to the bottom. 
 

von Tom

. 

[JG1_Wittmann]

11 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

Speaking of VR gameplay, have the devs fixed the ability for VR users to stick their heads outside the cockpit? You know placing their entire vision outside the cockpit through the glass and everything like it's not even there. 

 

SO  if you were in an AC  that  didn't have a bubble canopy,  you could simulate   a super bubble canopy  with no supporting   framework ?

[E69_geramos109]

Stop making arguments about how monitors have some advantages over Vr etc. At first that is not the case for some VR players and then. People using monitors may have advantage but BECAUSE the hardware NOT because the game itself making different softare to compensate. Thats the point. 

If you Vr guys are so anoyed because you can not spot shit or because you have no proper In game zoom you can go and complain to devs for improving the game and improving the spoting but the Game should be the same for everyone!!! If you want to have mods activated make the server admins to chose if they want to use in game mods or  not rather than having some advantages just for some people. 

Then the discussion would not have limits talking about how to compansate disadvantages for people having different hardware! The solution is Same game for everyone!!

Edited May 4, 2020 by E69_geramos109

[SCG_Wulfe]

8 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

 

SO  if you were in an AC  that  didn't have a bubble canopy,  you could simulate   a super bubble canopy  with no supporting   framework ?

 

3 hours ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

This has just turned into a mess of disinformation. That is not possible for VR users anymore than it is possible for any other user. If the server has cockpit boundaries turned off (no commonly flown servers do except for Berloga) then you can stick your head through the sides of your aircraft. Once again, none of the mainstream servers have this turned off except for Berloga.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Stop making arguments about how monitors have some advantages over Vr etc. At first that is not the case for some VR players and then. People using monitors made have advantage BECAUSE the hardware NOT because the game itself making different softare to compensate. Thats the point. 

If you Vr guys are so anoyed because you can not spot shit or because you have no proper In game zoom you can go and complain to devs for improving the game and improving the spoting but the Game should be the same for everyone!!! If you want to have mods activated make the server admins to chose if they want to use in game mods or  not rather than having some advantages just for some people. 

Then the discussion would not have limits talking about how to compansete disadvantages for people having different hardware! THe solution is Same game for everyone!!

 

So you think it's fair that the in-game zoom for you on a monitor is 5x.... and the in-game zoom for the less clear VR headset is 1.5x....

 

Yep, ok, enough said. I think everyone can see how fair minded you are. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[Creep]

5 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Stop making arguments about how monitors have some advantages over Vr etc.

No.

[JG1_Wittmann]

1 hour ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

 

You are completely misrepresenting the VR with zoom mod argument.

 

I will break it down in point form to simplify our actual argument: 

 

 

1 - The purpose of the VR zoom is not to spot. (It does not render planes that would not have rendered without zoom.) 

 

 

2 - None of us are using it to spot planes from far away. It would not help with that as it focuses on a tiny portion of sky. (We use it to help ID planes that we have already spotted organically with no zoom)

 

 

3 - VR has much lower apparent resolution than a monitor. (This makes Identification of contacts more difficult than it is on a crisp monitor) - note: I say identification, not spotting . We still see the blurry object of an aircraft, we just can't make out what it is.

 

 

4 - The base in-game zoom for monitor users is 5x, the base in-game zoom for VR players is 1.5x zoom (so not only do we have a blurrier picture, we can't even zoom in as far as monitor players)

 

 

5 - The purpose of the 10x zoom in the mod (not the 50x zoom you stated) is to help us overcome the lower apparent resolution of a VR headset and ID contacts we have already spotted. The aim is to achieve approximate parity of identification ability with a monitor player. 

 

 

I  don't  accept  the  lower resolution makes spotting more difficult.  The opposite is true for  many people   .  I have  a 32"  4K  monitor,  that works great for  everything.  The problem is in this game due to   "  spotty "   pun intended,   graphics  and ability to spot objects,  I am forced to run it in 1080 instead of it's native  res.  So lower is better.

 

I have flown with people using VR and they are able to identify AC  at much farther ranges  than someone using full in game zoom.   In fact,   I was in an AC on the ground, saw several contacts  Near the AF ,   a player using VR, and I assume this migoto,  was able to ID them as to type,  from @30K.   I saw dots, even on full zoom and they were less than 10K  from my position.  Max in game zoom,  dots  from less than 10,   positive AC Id from 30.  

 

It strikes  me as very disengenuous that  the thread originally started out from someone that wanted the mod  gone,  for everyone.   It seems like  the vast majority of the VR users posting here,  simply want the ability to use it removed  from the 2d users,  and that seems like a real problem as having flown with VR users my experience is they already have  a very big advantage  using this when it comes to identifying ac.   

 

If the in game zoom,  compounded  on top of the migoto zoom  is   considered  unfair,  then the devs should remove the in game  zoom in zoom out   and simply  have everyone  use the migoto  zooms.      Now,  there are  other features  that are in migoto, that says  vr only.   Why can't those be made available to 2d ?   If that is not possible,  then perhaps in the spirit of fairness they should be removed  from the vr users as well

 

I was  just reading  about some of the features of migoto,  from creator of it  "In game zoom can be stacked with all zoom, convergence settings for stacked zoom must also be defined"    Can the VR users  stack in game zoom, on top of migoto zoom,    like  2d users as well ?    It also appears that the 3 levels of  migoto zoom can be  changed,  by each user to suit ?    Is there a limit on that ?  

Edited May 4, 2020 by JG1_Wittmann

[Alonzo]

39 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

If you Vr guys are so anoyed because you can not spot shit or because you have no proper In game zoom you can go and complain to devs for improving the game and improving the spoting but the Game should be the same for everyone!!!

 

First, this is about ID, not spotting. Second, VR users have politely and persistently asked the developers for an improved built-in zoom, and we will continue to do so. But the developers have many things to worry about, not just VR, and not just ID. They make a complex game for a big audience. For all we know, their major source of revenue might be single player "icons on" pilots, and the rest of us make up just a fraction of the player base. But we don't know, they do, and they make decisions about their product.

 

3D Migoto has enabled a level playing field between VR users and monitor users without the game developers needing to put resources into improving VR zoom, which might only benefit a small fraction of players. While I might argue that VR users should get some love, at the moment the mod is doing the job for free. Isn't that a good thing?

 

And yet here you are, arguing the developers should do....what exactly? Pour development resources into monitoring all processes running on a player's PC, in a way that is secure, workable, doesn't violate the player's privacy, isn't invasive, and works bug-free and doesn't increase the number of support tickets they get because the game doesn't work for a paying customer? Seems unlikely.

22 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

It strikes  me as very disengenuous that  the thread originally started out from someone that wanted the mod  gone,  for everyone.   It seems like  the vast majority of the VR users posting here,  simply want the ability to use it removed  from the 2d users,  and that seems like a real problem as having flown with VR users my experience is they already have  a very big advantage  using this when it comes to identifying ac.   

 

If the in game zoom,  compounded  on top of the migoto zoom  is   considered  unfair,  then the devs should remove the in game  zoom in zoom out   and simply  have everyone  use the migoto  zooms.      Now,  there are  other features  that are in migoto, that says  vr only.   Why can't those be made available to 2d ?   If that is not possible,  then perhaps in the spirit of fairness they should be removed  from the vr users as well

 

I was  just reading  about some of the features of migoto,  from creator of it  "In game zoom can be stacked with all zoom, convergence settings for stacked zoom must also be defined"    Can the VR users  stack in game zoom, on top of migoto zoom,    like  2d users as well ?    It also appears that the 3 levels of  migoto zoom can be  changed,  by each user to suit ?    Is there a limit on that ?  

 

I'm not reading the thread the same way. The VR users have a mod that (we claim) levels the playing field between monitors and VR users. It's available to monitor users as well. I'm not sure any actual serious VR pilot would suggest the mod should not work on monitor mode, only that it will provide less of a benefit because monitor users already have a reasonably good 5x zoom (oh, and snap 180 check six views, let's not forget that).

 

I'm not sure if there's a limit on how the mod works in terms of how much you can stack or increase the zoom, but there are two practical limitations. First, if you can't spot a set of pixels to look at, you have no way to know what to zoom in on. I guess you could randomly zoom in on empty bits of sky and cross your fingers, but spotting is the basic limitation on knowing where to zoom. Spotting is an entirely different topic, let's not open that can of worms here. Secondly, even the 10x zoom is difficult to use simply because trying to hold your head still and point the VR headset at that piece of sky is difficult. It's not like using a mouse, you need to hold the headset steady with your neck muscles, and with the 10x zoom that is very difficult. I've been using the mod extensively for 18 months and I use 7.5x zoom only, because 10x is just very hard to keep the plane in your vision. So I would say 10x is a practical limitation on the zoom but 7.5x or 5x are much more usable.

[Beazil]

Don't you guys think the mod makers AND developers have everyone's fair play in mind?

Geremos, all that stupid testing I did is in the readme for the 3d migoto mod; it is working as intended.  All you and I did was see something that was there the whole time.  Forget about my interest priorities for a second and try to forget yours for a moment.  

We have a glorious sim that is getting better all the time.  You have made an argument and presented a case that has been beaten like a pinata.  It has been looked at and will be addressed to provide parity.  Good.  That's good for all of us.

It will only get better from here.  But it's pretty good now, and we are only rehashing things that the playerbase and devs already knew about.

Get out there and enjoy.  Shoot down some bad guys and take your lumps with good humour.  You have all the tools the rest of us do and can tweak to your hearts content.  That is the very definition of parity.  If you find something game breaking you should do exactly what you have done - present and ask as you have done.  

It's up to you to decide if the responses have merit; that's the "fun" of these discusssions, and why we enjoy vigorous debate.

No one is trying to serve the interests of one party over the other.  Certainly not the developers or the mod makers.  I hope you can see that.  VR users and non VR users are the same users -IL2 BOX users.  I appreciate your passion on the subject.  I just hope eventually you will come to see the solution that has been developed using the mod is available to everyone and that it really doesn't serve one group over the others.  

I flip back and forth between VR and non VR.  I honestly find the big difference between the two is performance and spotting between the two is the same.  With the mod in play.  Which is why it is here in the first place.  If you put as much passion into your flying as you do your arguments then I'm sure you are well on your way to becoming a fine virtual pilot, if you are not already.  What I am trying to say is the community is richer for having you, and I think we are all on the same side.

Cheers man.

Edited May 4, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[JG1_Wittmann]

9 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

I'm not reading the thread the same way. The VR users have a mod that (we claim) levels the playing field between monitors and VR users. It's available to monitor users as well. I'm not sure any actual serious VR pilot would suggest the mod should not work on monitor mode, only that it will provide less of a benefit because monitor users already have a reasonably good 5x zoom (oh, and snap 180 check six views, let's not forget that).

 

I'm not sure if there's a limit on how the mod works in terms of how much you can stack or increase the zoom, but there are two practical limitations. First, if you can't spot a set of pixels to look at, you have no way to know what to zoom in on. I guess you could randomly zoom in on empty bits of sky and cross your fingers, but spotting is the basic limitation on knowing where to zoom. Spotting is an entirely different topic, let's not open that can of worms here. Secondly, even the 10x zoom is difficult to use simply because trying to hold your head still and point the VR headset at that piece of sky is difficult. It's not like using a mouse, you need to hold the headset steady with your neck muscles, and with the 10x zoom that is very difficult. I've been using the mod extensively for 18 months and I use 7.5x zoom only, because 10x is just very hard to keep the plane in your vision. So I would say 10x is a practical limitation on the zoom but 7.5x or 5x are much more usable.

 

I believe  that  the  Fenris ?   has said just that  and  stated that  it should be kept for VR, disabled for 2d.     I think all should be able to use this.

 

As far as this  making VR zoom,  on par with 2d users in-game  zoom,  I don't have VR  goggles to compare myself (  I may buy a set, just to do so )    What I have been able to do  is test the 3 levels  of migoto  against  the in-game zoom.     The following are my  observations,  based on my setup  :

 

1)   Max migoto zoom,  when applied to a monitor  " with no additional in game zoom stacked on top "     is " DOUBLE  Max in-game zoom "   This was done  putting a tank, on the ground,

opening commander hatch,   migoto  full zoom, screenshot, then  in-game  max zoom.  I say double  because the size of the tank at 2000m   was 2 times larger on screen that the in-game max zoom.  I can't post the pics here,  but can  if any1 wants to see  later, after work    What I can also do is post  the  offline mission  I made  just to test the zoom.   3 tanks, level ground   1 t34 is 2K  from player, one t34  is 4K from player.   This was measured, on my screen using a calipers,  it is 2x.

 

2) Medium migoto zoom   seems  like it is real close to max  in game  zoom .    What  I have noticed for myself is that if using migoto medium  it  seems easier to pick up  and ID  ac  than  it is  on max in game zoom.   It seems like moving  tgts  are easier to pick up, especially if they are against a forest or other background  using medium migoto.   That one will be harder to quantify,  but I am certainly going to see if it can be.

 

3)   The low migoto zoom  I did not measure,  but appears to be around  a 1.5 zoom.  This is very handy in several ways.  It is instantaneous,  it can be used  in a combat maneuver  to get a better look.   Very useful,  have seen positive comments   using  it on gunsight  instead of using  in game in and out,  way faster, consistent.  

 

I will be doing  some further testing of this  and   if I get a set of goggles then  I will share that info  as well.   IF you have goggles, and can use mission builder,   put down 3 tanks 1 player, 2 nme.   ranges 2k  4k.   Best area of map I found is rhineland   north of antwerp  lots of flat ground.   Finding a 4K  stretch not obscured by any trees took me a few  but it's there.    will post mission later  so others can post  goggle  vs  monitor screenshots  if they would

 

[Alonzo]

12 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

As far as this  making VR zoom,  on par with 2d users in-game  zoom,  I don't have VR  goggles to compare myself (  I may buy a set, just to do so )    What I have been able to do  is test the 3 levels  of migoto  against  the in-game zoom.     The following are my  observations,  based on my setup  :

 

1)   Max migoto zoom,  when applied to a monitor  " with no additional in game zoom stacked on top "     is " DOUBLE  Max in-game zoom "   T

 

2) Medium migoto zoom   seems  like it is real close to max  in game  zoom . 

 

3)   The low migoto zoom  I did not measure,  but appears to be around  a 1.5 zoom.

 

This is correct. The raw mechanics of the zoom function are 10x, 5x (= in-game 2D zoom), and 1.5x.

 

The thing you're unable to test, though, is the apparent effect when in VR. Due to the way the VR headset requires pixels and then warps them into a 3D view, the zoom feels different and it seems like you need a bit more zoom in the VR headset to get the same apparent level of clarity of the thing you're looking at.