anyone gonna fly the ju88c6 in mp?

[Bremspropeller]

The radar aerials on the night-fighter variants are also canted downwards, so I think @Juri_JS has the correct answer here.

 

I'm not sure whether the first Ju 88Cs were built with shooting down aircraft in mind. I think they were rather intended as strafers.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

I'm not sure whether the first Ju 88Cs were built with shooting down aircraft in mind. I think they were rather intended as strafers.

It would fit the Idea of the Ju-88 as a Dive Bomber if the Wing Racks are fitted.

 

I think they just tried to M3 Bradleyfy the Ju-88 and to create a Multi-Role Platform. A Plane that could strafe Trucks in the morning, Dive Bomb at noon and be an Interceptor in the Evening.

It can definetly work as an Emergency Fighter, an additional pair of Guns, to take down the heavy strike Elements of an attacking Force, leaving the Fighters to Entertain one another.
I also don't think the Numbers on the C-6 I often see are correct. The A-4 supposedly has a lower Service Ceiling than the C-6 but better Speed.

I don't buy that. If you have the same Airframe and the same Engines any additional Drag or Weight that decreases Speed also decreases Ceiling.

Edited September 13, 2021 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Bremspropeller]

27 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

The A-4 supposedly has a lower Service Ceiling than the C-6 but better Speed.

 

The quoted numbers might be for C-6s with night-fighter equipment. Either the full-up stuff, or just parts (e.g. just the flame-dampers).

Some A-4s also had flame-dampers installed, so the difference might also be just the radar.

 

The As also had dive-brakes, so building an additional hard-nosed dive-bomber wasn't all that neccessary. Some As later also had the forward MG fitted with a locking-device and/ or other fixed, forward-firing MG/FF installed.

 

Like this example:

Spoiler

 

Or this A-4 with flame-dampers

Spoiler

 

 

Fixed fwd firing MG/FF on an A-1 or A-5 (thin prop-blades). Note the inboard only flame-damper on the left engine.

 

 

Looks like two fwd firing MG17s on this KG 3 A-4

 

Flame dampers on this night-attack KG 30 A-4 - looks like it has it's fwd firing, Bola installed MG/FF covered.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[453=SGII_Wotan]

I will fly this piece of art

[danielprates]

Hmmm... what about the sights? Do they point exactly foward and the pilot, knowing about the gun angle, compensate for that; or do they follow the gun's offset angle?

[AEthelraedUnraed]

10 minutes ago, danielprates said:

Hmmm... what about the sights? Do they point exactly foward and the pilot, knowing about the gun angle, compensate for that; or do they follow the gun's offset angle?

Gunsights aren't much use if they point somewhere else

 

Gunsights always follow the gun angle, unless in rare cases where not all guns are aligned, as was apparently the case on the Tsetse Mosquito that we'll get. 

[danielprates]

4 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Gunsights aren't much use if they point somewhere else

 

Gunsights always follow the gun angle, unless in rare cases where not all guns are aligned, as was apparently the case on the Tsetse Mosquito that we'll get. 

 

Hm-hmm yes you would think that but still, so many defensive mgs have that extra "thingy" on the crosshairs to help you calculate how to shoot outside of the gun's latteral alignment, I can't help thinking that such an offset gun must have had some unique kind of sight - can it really be as simply as "slanted gun, slanted sight"?

 

Having a gun shoot anywhere other than exactly (or almost) the aircraft's path causes that "yet another extra factor" on top of fall, lead, letality and etc. Il21946 let you experiment with some sort of japanese version of "schrage musik" and boy, I couldn't shoot that to save my life.

 

EDIT: as far as targeting other planes go, anyway. If the intention was merely to straffe ground targets everything is much simpler of course, tracers and impact splashes help directing fire and there is probably little issue there.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by danielprates

[Juri_JS]

8 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

I'm not sure whether the first Ju 88Cs were built with shooting down aircraft in mind. I think they were rather intended as strafers.

The initial idea was to use it as a heavy long-range fighter, similar to the Bf-110. The first Ju-88 C unit, (Z)./KG 30, flew fighter mission over Norway. When it became apparent that the heavy fighter idea didn't worked when modern single engine fighters were encountered, the Ju-88 C switched to other roles, like nightfighting. It's use as strafer only really began when bomber units on the Eastern Front received the first Ju-88 Cs in 1942.

[sevenless]

21 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

The initial idea was to use it as a heavy long-range fighter, similar to the Bf-110. The first Ju-88 C unit, (Z)./KG 30, flew fighter mission over Norway. When it became apparent that the heavy fighter idea didn't worked when modern single engine fighters were encountered, the Ju-88 C switched to other roles, like nightfighting. It's use as strafer only really began when bomber units on the Eastern Front received the first Ju-88 Cs in 1942.

 

Thanks for that. Didn´t know. I always thought the main raison d'etre for development of the C-series was the need for long range nightfighter business in 1940/41.

 

Quote

 

Die ersten britischen Bombenangriffe bei Nacht auf Ziele in Deutschland zwangen die Luftwaffe dazu, Nachtjagdverbände aufzustellen. Im November 1940 begann die I./NJG 2 damit, Fernnachtjagd über Ostengland zu fliegen, um die Operationen der RAF-Nachtbomber zu stören. Für diese Einsätze standen schwarzlackierte Ju 88 C-2 und C-4 zur Verfügung, die noch keine Radaranlagen besaßen. Im Oktober 1941 wurde die Fernnachtjagd über Nordengland beendet, die I./NJG 2 verlegte an das Mittelmeer. Ab Oktober 1941 flogen Ju 88-C-2- und C-4-Nachtjäger der I./NJG 2 Begleitschutz für Mittelmeergeleitzüge und Transportflugzeuge von Flugplätzen in Sizilien aus.

Die ab 1942 zunehmenden nächtlichen Bombenangriffe der RAF erforderten eine verbesserte Nachtjagd. Ju 88 C-6 wurden als Nachtjäger eingesetzt und mit der jetzt in Form des Funkmessgerätes FuG 212 Lichtenstein C zur Verfügung stehenden Radartechnologie ausgerüstet. Auch die im Mittelmeerraum operierenden Maschinen wurden zurückbeordert und der Reichsverteidigung unterstellt.

Verglichen mit dem zweiten weitverbreiteten zweimotorigen Nachtjäger, der BF 110, hatte die Ju 88 bei gleicher Geschwindigkeit und schlechterer Wendigkeit den Vorteil der größeren Reichweite und Flugdauer. Daher war sie für die Verfolgungsnachtjagd gut geeignet: vom Bodenradar wurde sie in den Bomberstrom geleitet und suchte dann mit Hilfe des Bordradars ihre Ziele.

Junkers Ju 88 – Wikipedia

 

 

 

[Juri_JS]

29 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Thanks for that. Didn´t know. I always thought the main raison d'etre for development of the C-series was the need for long range nightfighter business in 1940/41.

Nightfighting was almost completely neglected by the Luftwaffe until it was realized in mid 1940 that nightfighter units would be desperately needed. The Luftwaffe was lucky that it had the heavy fighters Bf-110 and Ju-88 C available that could be used in this role, although this wasn't their initial purpose. (Z)./KG 30, that I mentioned above was also transformed into a nightfighter unit and became part of II./NJG 1, which was the first nightfighter group equipped with this aircraft type.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Juri_JS

[sevenless]

3 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

Nightfighting was almost completely neglected by the Luftwaffe until it was realized in mid 1940 that nightfighter units would be desperately needed.

 

Erm, I might be wrong, but wasn´t the Kammhuber Line established as early as 07/1940 in conjunction with the plan to use Dornier Do 17Z-10s, Junkers Ju 88Cs and Messerschmitt Bf 110s? Anyways, you certainly are deeper into this stuff. Thanks for the details. Weserübung was from 04/1940-06/1940, so conceptual work for the C-series surely must have been prior to that date?

[Juri_JS]

34 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Erm, I might be wrong, but wasn´t the Kammhuber Line established as early as 07/1940 in conjunction with the plan to use Dornier Do 17Z-10s, Junkers Ju 88Cs and Messerschmitt Bf 110s? Anyways, you certainly are deeper into this stuff. Thanks for the details. Weserübung was from 04/1940-06/1940, so conceptual work for the C-series surely must have been prior to that date?

 

You are right. The first nightfighter units were hastily formed in late June 1940, without much preliminary planning. Kammhuber became head of the new nightfighter arm in July 1940 and work on the Kammhuber line began. So that's after the development of the C-series started in 1939 . The first aircraft were delivered in early 1940 and went to (Z)/KG 30, that was formed in February 1940.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Juri_JS

[sevenless]

29 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

The first aircraft were delivered in early 1940 and went to (Z)/KG 30, that was formed in February 1940.

 

Thanks. I just googled a little about KG 30. Seems like they were heavily involved in anti-shipping raids as early as fall 1939 and of course with Weserübung. Interesting stuff. I whish we would have more anti-shipping possibilities in the game. Maybe we get that in the future.

 

Quote

Am 9. April 1940 griffen 47 Kampfflugzeuge des Kampfgeschwaders 30 und 26 in der Nordsee eine britische Kreuzergruppe mit den Kreuzern Southampton, Manchester, Glasgow, Sheffield und Aurora, zusammen mit den Zerstörern Afridi, Gurkha, Sikh, Mohawk, Somali, Matabele und Mashona an. Dabei versenkten sie, unter Verlust von vier Kampfflugzeugen, den Zerstörer Gurkha (♁Lage) und beschädigten die Southampton und Glasgow leicht.^[8] Am 17. April traf die II. Gruppe erneut auf eine britische Kriegsschiffgruppe, bestehend aus dem Schweren Kreuzer Suffolk und den Zerstörern Kipling, Janus, Juno und Hereward, die gerade mit ihrer Artillerie den Seefliegerhorst Stavanger angriffen. Aufgrund mehrerer Bombentreffer auf der Suffolk sank ihr Achterdeck unter die Wasserlinie und wurde überflutet. Sie konnte sich aber, ebenso wie die beschädigte Kipling nach Großbritannien retten.^[9] Bereits am nächsten Tag griffen Flugzeuge der II. Gruppe bei Narvik das britische Schlachtschiff Resolution an. Eine 1000 kg Bombe traf das Schiff und durchschlug drei Decks bevor sie explodierte. Die Resolution konnte sich mit Beschädigungen retten.^[10]

Kampfgeschwader 30 – Wikipedia

 

[Retnek]

On 9/13/2021 at 7:38 PM, Juri_JS said:

 

You are right. The first nightfighter units were hastily formed in late June 1940, without much preliminary planning. Kammhuber became head of the new nightfighter arm in July 1940 and work on the Kammhuber line began. So that's after the development of the C-series started in 1939 . The first aircraft were delivered in early 1940 and went to (Z)/KG 30, that was formed in February 1940.

The Ju-88 early-C (C2 mostly afaik) from (Z)./KG30 (Z = Zerstörer = destroyers) in July 1940 were re-established as the 4. Squadron of the 2nd Group of Nachtjagdgeschwader 1 (4./NJG1). 5./NJG1 was build up with Do-17 Z-7 and Z-10 - destroyer-conversions of the Do-17 bomber. The 6./NJG1 was freshly build up, equipped with Ju-88 C, too.

II./NJG1 was ordered to develop the "Fernnachtjagd" - long range night-fighting. At that time this was seen as an equitable element in the concept of of the Luftwaffe night-fighters - together with the local nightfighter-defenses. Concept was not to wait for the RAF-bombers coming in one-for-one - go out an get them at their bases. This very much corresponded to the strictly offensive attitude of the Luftwaffe fighters and leaders. In September 1940 the II./NJG1 was re-named to I./NJG2 to established the new NJG2. 4. (Ju-88 C), 5. (Do-17 Z) and the still maturing 6./NJG1 (Ju-88 C) became 1., 2. and 3./NJG2.

The group more and more developed procedures, tactics and experience to visit the RAF-bomber-bases. They had moderate losses and were quite successful disturbing RAF-night-operations and crew-training. Until Oct. 1941 when they were sent to the Mediterranean TO and soon stopped to exist as a specialized night-fighter-group. That change was ordered by a "Führerbefehl" - command given by Hitler himself. Who allegedly wanted to see the bombers falling down where the German people could see them burning ...
(Never seen a source checking the origin of that order in detail. Hitler's "direct orders" after the war gladly were used as an excuse by German politicians and military leaders to camouflage their own failures. Hitler easily was mad enough for such an order, but better be cautious until there's a proof.)

 

The concept of long-range-night-fighting was (nearly completely) abandoned by the Luftwaffe after 1941. RAF was quite happy about it since the long-range-operations gave them a lot of headaches.

Sources:

Möhlenbeck, Otto; Leihse, Manfred (1976): Ferne Nachtjagd. Aufzeichnungen aus den Jahren 1940-1945. 2nd edition. Stuttgart: Motorbuchverlag.

Aders, Gebhard (1977): Geschichte der deutschen Nachtjagd, 1917-1945. Stuttgart: Motorbuch.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Retnek

[Dennis_Nedry]

I have a couple questions about the C6 if anyone has the answers.

 

1. What is it’s maximum speed at combat power?

2. Can it carry SC1000 bombs under the wings?

3. Is it able to have a single 13mm MG for defense instead of the MG81?

 

I love the Ju 88 and I’ve been flying the A4 a lot.  Even if the C6 is “crap” I can’t wait to fly it!

 
thank you!

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

2 minutes ago, Dennis_Nedry said:

I have a couple questions about the C6 if anyone has the answers.

 

1. What is it’s maximum speed at combat power?

2. Can it carry SC1000 bombs under the wings?

3. Is it able to have a single 13mm MG for defense instead of the MG81?

 

I love the Ju 88 and I’ve been flying the A4 a lot.  Even if the C6 is “crap” I can’t wait to fly it!

 
thank you!

 

1.: Given the decreased drag from the removal of the Bomb Racks it's gonna be about 25km/h faster clean and 12km/h faster with two Bomb Racks instead of the A-4's four Racks. 

2.: I think it will be able to even carry the SC1800. 

3.: Unlikely.

[ATAG_SKUD]

On 9/12/2021 at 10:15 AM, Juri_JS said:

I always thought that the guns were slightly angled to compensate the tail down flying position of the Ju-88.

This is correct. All the Ju-88s rode 5 degrees nose high. This is in the original manuals. I'll try to find the exact passage.

skud