Track IR 5 really the ultimate last head tracking solution

[IckyATLAS]

I was wondering about Track IR. The hardware is version 5 existing since at least 11 yes ELEVEN years now.

I have mine since years but I use it seldom as I find it not stable enough. You have to reset your center position too often, and the cables dangling from my wireless headphones annoy me.

The latest software version has 4 FOUR years and has not moved a human hair width since then.

In our field of 3D computer graphics and gaming this is like absolute eternity, frozen in suspended animation, or near-death experiment.

 

Now my question here. Is that really the ultimate product. Are still people using it.  Nothing better done since then ?

How come there is no Track IR6 without cables (bluetooth), more compact, more precise and stable  in terms of return to center with no offset, less cumbersome etc.

 

Is there another solution on the market that has it all, and thus Natural Point is not interested to continue developing.

Just as a reminder don't tell me VR has occupied the place, simply because that's not true. VR is improving but it is not yet a replacement product for a head tracker solution.

One day in the future most probably, but still not for everyone, simply because many brains will never adapt their vision to a VR headset, and will have headaches and nausea like my wife, who cannot stand more than ten minutes a simple 3D film in a movie theater.

 

So is there something other than VR and better than TrackIR5 out there?

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by IckyATLAS

[BOO]

Im not sure there is. I suspect a combation of Opentrack and a DIY/Delan solution may offer some small additional functionality over the TIRs camera's 120 whatever thingy but not much more. Someone a while back posted a hack for BOS so the TIR had a more realistic feel. Somthing to do with the original coding within TIR being screwy. It worked great in itself but i found it caused crashes in game due to integrity which was a real shame as it really added to the pitch motion. I think they had contact TIR about it but got nowhere. Personally id love BOS to have the abilty to set the zoom to the Z a'la DCS but thats just me. 

 

I sometimes wondered about a combination of using the EDtracker for YAW/PITCH/ROLL and the the TIR for X/Y/Z but never got further than thinking about looking for where i put the EDT. In the end it became a little moot for BOX as my TIR rarely, if ever, goes squiffy, even through im sat next to a window. It would be good i suspect for DCS (if it worked) as that seems a lot more prone to TIR frame drops. 

 

I found the position of the thing its critical as is using the amplitude of the curve line effectivley. Many of the lines on my graphs are flat but positioned at varying degrees above the zero on the vertical axis. Any resetting is done with a push of a joystick button that also recentres the ingame view to default. My suspicion is that TIR was tuned originally for people starting downwards at a desktop monitor whereas many users now play using a higher and bigger screen and from a lower poistion. I replicate the poisiton of where the camera on my first 13inch monitor would have sat in front of me and have a very stable TIR. Who knows. 

 

Cables? well the Track hat dont have cables and i guess but as im english a baseball cap is an alien thing!  Its not beyond the wit of man to power anything like the delan or pro clip from a headset mounted battery pack i guess though. Theres a good few on the market. 

[simfan2015]

My guess is ... that no other company is/was interested to get into this kind of  business simply because Natural Point has a kind of monopoly/patent on the interface/API.

They reportedly sue *anyone* even trying.

Easy cash grab.

Still not sure why they themselves never came up with TrackIr Version 6+ ... maybe ... for the exact same reason ... not needed because ... no competition (allowed) anyway !?

 

Once (if ever) VR gets to a light, rather cheap and untethered goggle-type 4K+ solution it will be all over the place but until then I too am still stuck with TrackIr5 !

 

kind regards 

[Lupus]

LOL, and here I've been wondering if it was worth considering upgrading from TrackIR 4 to TrackIR 5.

[RedKestrel]

I think headtracking has probably always been a bit of a niche market for games like sims with expensive peripherals. And now with VR starting to become more feasible and affordable (Relatively) it really starts eating into market share of an already small pool. So there's not a lot of incentive to break into the market, especially when a big portion of your userbase is tech savvy enough to manage DIY things like we see all the time.

I'm dreading the eventual point when my EDtracker dies, because as of right now it looks like that company isn't restocking due to the Brexit/Coronavirus double whammy, and I'm worried that they won't restart production again. With my setup I occasionally get backlighting and glare which I think would be bad for IR and LED based tracking devices. So far the EDtracker has been very good, but nothing lasts forever. 

 

[Lupus]

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

I think headtracking has probably always been a bit of a niche market for games like sims with expensive peripherals. And now with VR starting to become more feasible and affordable (Relatively) it really starts eating into market share of an already small pool. So there's not a lot of incentive to break into the market, especially when a big portion of your userbase is tech savvy enough to manage DIY things like we see all the time.

I'm dreading the eventual point when my EDtracker dies, because as of right now it looks like that company isn't restocking due to the Brexit/Coronavirus double whammy, and I'm worried that they won't restart production again. With my setup I occasionally get backlighting and glare which I think would be bad for IR and LED based tracking devices. So far the EDtracker has been very good, but nothing lasts forever. 

 

 

I do get 'twitching' and 'sticking' occasionally because of backlighting or unusual glares that hit. I think a combination of the two would probably make for the ideal head tracking solution. 

[Remontti]

Edtracker here too. I've have Trackir 5 too and I'm keeping it as backup. Surely Natural Point could improve their trackir hardware but as mentioned they seem reluctant to do so. It's been a while since I checked their forum but my understanding is that they haven't improved their software either other than added supported games.

I don't value them much as a company for above reasons.

[RedKestrel]

28 minutes ago, Remontti said:

Edtracker here too. I've have Trackir 5 too and I'm keeping it as backup. Surely Natural Point could improve their trackir hardware but as mentioned they seem reluctant to do so. It's been a while since I checked their forum but my understanding is that they haven't improved their software either other than added supported games.

I don't value them much as a company for above reasons.

When/If they do start producing again I think I will purchase another backup unit just in case.

[56RAF_Roblex]

I stopped using TrackIR and switched to EDTracker because apart from the glitches from stray lights etc,  I sometimes found it got confused if I whipped my head around too fast eg during a head-on pass or a violent flat or rolling scissors which is the one time you really don't want to lose your target..  EDTracker does not have those issues.   I get the sideways head movement by mapping it to head roll but I admit it is not quite as natural as looking around the canopy frame or joystick in TrackIR.

 

 

[SCG_Tzigy]

Love TrackIR.  Once u have a good profile, not sure there is anything outhere that can beat it other than VR...

 

Always made sure i had an extra unit around, as couldn't fly w/o one...

[BOO]

54 minutes ago, SCG_Tzigy said:

Love TrackIR.  Once u have a good profile, not sure there is anything outhere that can beat it other than VR...

 

Always made sure i had an extra unit around, as couldn't fly w/o one...

Agreed!

 

Good position, good profile, unabitious curves. 

 

I tranditioned quite slowly from the EDT pro but, in the end there was no real reason to continue to use it. Once everything is dialled in (so not just downloading others profiles) TIR works very well. Not prefect by any means but not too shabby at all.  

[BRSQD_Bacana]

On 15/04/2020 at 14:50, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Parei de usar o TrackIR e mudei para o EDTracker porque, além das falhas das luzes dispersas, etc, às vezes ficava confuso se eu mexesse a cabeça muito rápido, por exemplo, durante um passe frontal ou uma violenta tesoura plana ou rolante, que é a única Quando você realmente não quer perder o seu objetivo. O EDTracker não tem esses problemas. Eu recebo o movimento lateral da cabeça mapeando-o para rolar a cabeça, mas admito que não é tão natural quanto olhar ao redor da moldura do dossel ou do joystick no TrackIR.

 

 

@56RAF_Roblex His movements very smooth. You can share your Profile. I also use Edtracker PRO with Opentrack.

[56RAF_Roblex]

1 hour ago, =ABr=BR_Paco said:

@56RAF_Roblex His movements very smooth. You can share your Profile. I also use Edtracker PRO with Opentrack.

 

Put this in a txt file and save it as a profile called BoX.ini (or any name as long as it has '.ini.    )   in Users\ <user>\Documents\Opentrack-2.3

 

[migrations]
last-migration-at=20170420_00~

[modules]
tracker-dll=Joystick input

[tracker-joystick]
joy-guid={7AF5A270-DA95-11E7-8001-444553540000}
axis-map-1=0
axis-map-2=0
axis-map-3=0
axis-map-4=2
axis-map-5=3
axis-map-6=4

[spline-yaw]
points=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\xfQList<QPointF>\0\0\0\0\x1@D\xb3\x33\x33\x33\x33\x33@f \0\0\0\0\0)

[spline-pitch]
points=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\xfQList<QPointF>\0\0\0\0\x1@>\x99\x99\x99\x99\x99\x9a@f\x80\0\0\0\0\0)

[accela-sliders]
rotation-deadzone=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\x18::options::slider_value\0?\x9e\xb8Q\xeb\x85\x1e\xba\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0?\xb9\x99\x99\x99\x99\x99\x9a)
ewma=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\x18::options::slider_value\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@i\0\0\0\0\0\0)

[proto-freetrack]
used-interfaces=2

[opentrack-ui]
x-source-index=5
y-source-index=4
z-source-index=4
center-at-startup=true
keycode-center=
centering-method=0
neck-depth=20
neck-enable=true
compensate-translation=true
start-in-tray=true
use-system-tray=true
button-zero=-1
guid-zero=
button-center=2
guid-center={90614380-112E-11E6-8001-444553540000}
compensate-translation-disable-source-pitch=true
compensate-translation-disable-source-roll=true
compensate-translation-disable-x-axis=false
compensate-translation-disable-y-axis=true
compensate-translation-disable-z-axis=true

[opentrack-mappings]
y-alt-axis-sign=true
yaw-alt-axis-sign=false
z-alt-axis-sign=false
x-max-value=30
pitch-alt-axis-sign=true
y-max-value=30

[spline-X]
points=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\xfQList<QPointF>\0\0\0\0\x5@\x10\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@$\0\0\0\0\0\0@\x14\0\0\0\0\0\0@.\0\0\0\0\0\0@)\0\0\0\0\0\0@9\0\0\0\0\0\0@B\xc0\0\0\0\0\0@>\0\0\0\0\0\0@R \0\0\0\0\0)

[alt-spline-Y]
points=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\xfQList<QPointF>\0\0\0\0\x2@\x14\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@4\0\0\0\0\0\0@D\0\0\0\0\0\0)

[spline-Z]
points=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\xfQList<QPointF>\0\0\0\0\x2@\x14\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@4\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0)

[alt-spline-yaw]
points=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\xfQList<QPointF>\0\0\0\0\x1@:\0\0\0\0\0\0@f\x80\0\0\0\0\0)

[spline-Y]
points="@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\xfQList<QPointF>\0\0\0\0\n\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0?\xf0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@ \0\0\0\0\0\0@$\0\0\0\0\0\0@.\0\0\0\0\0\0@P\xe0\0\0\0\0\0@5\0\0\0\0\0\0@N\0\0\0\0\0\0@8\0\0\0\0\0\0@I\0\0\0\0\0\0@:\0\0\0\0\0\0@B\xc0\0\0\0\0\0@;\0\0\0\0\0\0@;\x80\0\0\0\0\0@=\0\0\0\0\0\0@\x1e\0\0\0\0\0\0@>\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0)"

[alt-spline-pitch]
points=@Variant(\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\xfQList<QPointF>\0\0\0\0\x1@E\x80\0\0\0\0\0@f\x80\0\0\0\0\0)

[BRSQD_Bacana]

TKS @56RAF_Roblex Works well! Thanks for sharing.

Edited April 24, 2020 by =ABr=BR_Paco

[E69_Qpassa_VR]

VR is what the future has brought

Edited April 24, 2020 by E69_Qpassa_VR

[RedKestrel]

Just now, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

VR is where the future has brought

Probably, but until we can all afford high end PCs to run the expensive VR sets, headtracking is here to stay.

[VR-DriftaholiC]

With the O+ being $300 and a RTX-2070 being able to push it just fine, I would say that's a bit shy of "high-end"

[SharpeXB]

I think TrackIR has not needed to improve from version 5 because honestly I don’t think any improvement is possible. 
Your complaint is about the wire needed for the TrackClip Pro? Unless you want to change batteries or have a heavier headpiece to hold them, wires are what they are. And there are battery powered versions. The reflector cap works just fine IMO. 
Also the need to re-center occasionally is produced by the game, not TIR, for example I never need to re-center in IL-2 but need to constantly in DCS. 
 

Naturalpoint makes other products besides TIR including mouse emulating devices for the handicapped, it’s my guess that’s where TrackIR began life. For what it does, it’s very accurate and cost effective. Sure I can imagine an internal tracking solution but that might not be as responsive and would certainly cost more.  

Edited April 25, 2020 by SharpeXB

[RedKestrel]

6 hours ago, driftaholic said:

With the O+ being $300 and a RTX-2070 being able to push it just fine, I would say that's a bit shy of "high-end"

That’s 1000 dollars for GPU and headset combined. Before taxes. And you need a good processor to push it too to get acceptable performance. To me that’s high end.

[E69_Qpassa_VR]

3 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

That’s 1000 dollars for GPU and headset combined. Before taxes. And you need a good processor to push it too to get acceptable performance. To me that’s high end.

A second hand 1080ti has more performance than a 2070 and should cost you $450~

 

Example: http://reddit.com/r/hardwareswap/comments/g7l4ug/usaca_h_evga_gtx_1080ti_sc2_gaming_w_paypal/

Edited April 25, 2020 by E69_Qpassa_VR

[Remontti]

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I think TrackIR has not needed to improve from version 5 because honestly I don’t think any improvement is possible...
 

They could fix the head sinking problem when using True view. I got a reply from Natural Point long ago that they were aware of the issue and planned fixing it. I haven't used Tir5 for a while so can't say for sure if it is still a issue.

 

There are few features in Opentrack that I would like to see in Tir. Like ability to combine sideways movement with panning.

 

For hardware a combination of LED tracking and a gyroscope would really help keep on tracking if you momentarily move outside of camera view.

 

So I think there is room for improvement. But they are competing in a niche market where they represent old tech compared to VR. Probably not worthwhile to develop Tir further.