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gimpy117

Me-109 elevator stab exploit

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when is this gonna be fixed? mapping both stab and elevator to one axis produces broken behavior of the aircraft. this is an exploit....it's been years!

i would like to hear from the devs on this 

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I'm sure if you stamp your feet and scream too,  the dev's will take notice. When has the above approach ever yielded results among adults?

 

As an aside, how about them flap hangers as well? It's a game. There will always be exploits.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

I'm sure if you stamp your feet and scream too,  the dev's will take notice. When has the above approach ever yielded results among adults?

 

As an aside, how about them flap hangers as well? It's a game. There will always be exploits.

flaps could be fixed by more drag, stab can be fixed mapping to buttons only.

 

can i ask, do you have stab mapped to your pitch axis? you have a German clan tag 

it always puzzles me when a community that demands realism is okay with having a crank wheel with a high reduction mapped to a joystick axis. i dont even see what your argument is other than "tough luck hands off my exploit" I see not historical reason to Map this axis onto the same one as pitch. German pilots didn't have a 3rd arm.  

 

Edited by gimpy117
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I actually fly both sides. I clan up when my mates are on. None of us use any exploits and I am strictly an energy fighter by trade.

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44 minutes ago, gimpy117 said:

when is this gonna be fixed? mapping both stab and elevator to one axis produces broken behavior of the aircraft. this is an exploit....it's been years!

i would like to hear from the devs on this 

 

i would be interested in how many people are actually doing it...

 

i think of myself 75% aviation history/sim fanatic, 25% gamer; using exploits would never occur to me.  Well for most part..i admit i do set mixture at 49% in p-38...  :)

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, SCG_Tzigy said:

 

i would be interested in how many people are actually doing it...

 

i think of myself 75% aviation history/sim fanatic, 25% gamer; using exploits would never occur to me.  Well for most part..i admit i do set mixture at 49% in p-38...  :)

i've seen videos of it done, finally say my first 100% positive use of it in multi. causes almost instant 20-30 degree jinking, it's silly and broken 

https://streamable.com/f4ql2

https://streamable.com/pfb9n

https://streamable.com/zpb12

this is not my recording, but the behavior of the aircraft was the same 

Edited by gimpy117
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S! 

 

If an exploit is there to be used, people will use it. And some actively look for more of them. An endless battle for devs. 

 

I personally have trim on a wheel that rotates 3 revolutions. Makes use of it very precise. And no matter how fast I turn it, the trim wheel in game won't move any faster. 

 

I would be more concerned of this abundant use of flaps at any situation turning planes to super stable helicopters..

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27 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

 

 

I personally have trim on a wheel that rotates 3 revolutions. Makes use of it very precise. And no matter how fast I turn it, the trim wheel in game won't move any faster. 

 

 

 

Somehow it is possible to adjust the trim or stabilizer instantaneously. I notice it on youtube videos of people flying every now and then. My controls are also set up on a wheel for this like yourself. So I know how slowly it adjusts regardless of input. What I do not know is how some people are able to make it adjust far faster.

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8 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

when is this gonna be fixed? mapping both stab and elevator to one axis produces broken behavior of the aircraft. this is an exploit....it's been years!

i would like to hear from the devs on this 

The developers addressed this, over a year or so ago, by making the 109 trim wheel take around 8 second to move from one extreme to the other. This timing was based on a video of someone adjusting the wheel in a real 109 cockpit.

 

Even so, I cannot see any decent pilot considering that co mapping it to his elevator axis would give him any sort of an advantage. Maybe a noob would get some sort of placebo effect from it, convincing himself he could turn harder. 

 

Also, with the current g modelling, it sounds like a recipe to inadvertently black out.

 

If anyone bests you whilst using this 'exploit', I think the failure lies somewhere other than the developers.

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Last time I checked it took around 14s to move the trim wheel from one extreme to the other. You could do those maneuvers with the 109 just by yanking the stick, without any special mappings.

 

I'm not sure how stalling yourself out is considered to be a hack or a valid tactic for that matter (as the 2nd clip is showing). By the way, when were those clips recorded? They might be well before any issues were addressed.

 

9 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

when is this gonna be fixed? mapping both stab and elevator to one axis produces broken behavior of the aircraft. this is an exploit....it's been years!

i would like to hear from the devs on this 

 

Did you try it for yourself?

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S!

 

 One can achieve faster elevator response by using a historically accurate way. Many Finnish aces said that they used to trim the Bf109G so that you had to slightly push nose down to maintain level, 1/4 rotation of nose up trim. When combat started trim helped entering the turns faster. But none specifically said they used trim during combat, never used flaps.

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20 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 One can achieve faster elevator response by using a historically accurate way. Many Finnish aces said that they used to trim the Bf109G so that you had to slightly push nose down to maintain level, 1/4 rotation of nose up trim. When combat started trim helped entering the turns faster. But none specifically said they used trim during combat, never used flaps.

 

That is how I trim all aircraft unless I am in dash mode to escape. Then I trim slightly nose down. As a game mechanic, as well, it helps to be slightly nose up if the blackout is sustained and keeps me from nosing over into lawn dart mode.

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I know about trimming up to pull out of a dive easier, but, my question is...then how is someone still able to have elevator authority like in those videos posted? is it lag? is it a cheat? I say this because that is exactly how a pilot was jinking to avoid shots last night in online play, a sudden extra 300 level of elevator authority right as i was beginning to pull into a firing solution. 

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Posted (edited)

Even if he was using the exploit, the trim wheel doesn’t move fast enough to aid much in a jink. It would be more for sustained turns. You can jink fuel injected aircraft really hard but you will burn through your E really fast too. Just yo-yo him and set back up for the next shot.

 

I’m not saying I use the exploit or that I approve of it either but I’m not necessarily seeing it in your example. There are too many commands to not map multiple inputs to some keys. I’m not sure how to have that and kill this exploit. Even if you made them be separate someone would just write a script as a work around if they were dedicated. 

 

There is evidence some pilots used the trim wheel in dive recovery and to tighten turns IRL. So keeping sim pilots from moving both is not realistic. They already slowed the trim wheel speed years ago.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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8 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

There is evidence some pilots used the trim wheel in dive recovery and to tighten turns IRL.

Indeed - it says in the manual :)

this is from the manual for the Emil:

image.png.ee1e77b8c471216e9978bfaf39d715ff.png

VI. Flight under special circumstances

a. Dive

1. Trim Stabalizer, that you have to push to stay in dive. Best done by starting in cruise trim and than trim half a turn nose up. If you notice you don't have to push anymore abort dive immidiatly.

 

So yes - they were trained to use the stab trim ^^

And since after the kommandogerät took care of all the engine managment, trimming was basically the only thing the pilot had to do in flight besides manipulating the control surfaces...

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On 4/14/2020 at 1:42 AM, gimpy117 said:

flaps could be fixed by more drag,

I hope they never do this for the simple readon that flaps don‘t add too much drag. It would be correcting an error with an error.

 

The problem in this game is that setting flaps gives you nose up attitude rather than nose down. The added AoA you get with the flaps is taken away woth the nose down attitude. If they made this right in the FM (for all aircraft!!) then you‘d see much less flaps use and if so, just to keep flying when slow. As they did in the real aircraft.

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S! 

 

As ZachariasX said. This flap flipflopping needs to go. Correcting them would force people to actually fly their plane instead of relying in the flaps making their current magic. 

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On 4/14/2020 at 9:42 AM, gimpy117 said:

flaps could be fixed by more drag, stab can be fixed mapping to buttons only.

 

can i ask, do you have stab mapped to your pitch axis? you have a German clan tag 

it always puzzles me when a community that demands realism is okay with having a crank wheel with a high reduction mapped to a joystick axis. i dont even see what your argument is other than "tough luck hands off my exploit" I see not historical reason to Map this axis onto the same one as pitch. German pilots didn't have a 3rd arm.  

 

 

LOL, watch as an I-16 can simultaneously lower/raise flaps, increase and decrease the throttle while manoeuvring, probably lower the undercarriage as well, so please at least see what other exploits are out there on either side before talking about Germans having a third arm.  

There will always be exploits and perhaps having anthropomorphic controls might reduce the ability of the third arm, however, until then, players will do whatever to gain an advantage to win.

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5 hours ago, Haza said:

 

LOL, watch as an I-16 can simultaneously lower/raise flaps, increase and decrease the throttle while manoeuvring, probably lower the undercarriage as well, so please at least see what other exploits are out there on either side before talking about Germans having a third arm.  

There will always be exploits and perhaps having anthropomorphic controls might reduce the ability of the third arm, however, until then, players will do whatever to gain an advantage to win.

as we know, putting the landing gear down mid combat is of course, the most effective combat technique ever. get real. being able to put the landing gear down on an I16 at the same time isn't making it a more effective combat aircraft, and i don't think anyone in their right mind would use flaps in combat on an I16, it already out turns anything. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

as we know, putting the landing gear down mid combat is of course, the most effective combat technique ever. get real. being able to put the landing gear down on an I16 at the same time isn't making it a more effective combat aircraft, and i don't think anyone in their right mind would use flaps in combat on an I16, it already out turns anything. 

 

Hi Gimpy,

 

I'm now confused! I thought that you were talking about exploits and you mentioned the word 'cheat' all in the same discussion appearing to say that you are puzzled when a community demands realism but allows none realistic things to happen. Therefore, the ability to do things that I have mentioned that IRL are not realistic, you now appear to dismiss, by saying players wouldn't do such things, is rather farsicle! Therefore, are you for or are you against realism, it's as simple as that?

 

As I said, try all of the other aircraft and think about anthropomorphic controls before you start 'cherry picking' your argument. Indeed the automated functions that gave the Luftwaffe an advantage, are perhaps lost in this game because of the lack of anthropomorphic controls that allows Russian aircraft to be played so easily.

 

However, if you are all about realism, I fully support your observation regarding the 109.

 

Regards

 

 

Edited by Haza

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On 4/13/2020 at 5:45 PM, gimpy117 said:

i've seen videos of it done, finally say my first 100% positive use of it in multi. causes almost instant 20-30 degree jinking, it's silly and broken 

https://streamable.com/f4ql2

https://streamable.com/pfb9n

https://streamable.com/zpb12

this is not my recording, but the behavior of the aircraft was the same 

 

I don't see anything here that isn't more easily explained by network prediction algorithms. The client-side network prediction believes the plane is continuing to fly straight ahead, then it gets an update from the server that says, "Oh by the way, about 100ms ago, the plane pitched up really hard," so the client-side has to play catch up. It does this by moving the plane unnaturally fast for a brief moment to get it into the new, corrected position.

 

If you'd like a detailed technical article which has some animations that show this behavior, I recommend reading https://www.gafferongames.com/post/snapshot_interpolation/

 

Pay attention to the last animation in particular, which shows very clearly how the right image (the client's view) shoots up much faster than what happened on the left side (the server's view).

 

Now I am not an IL-2 developer so I can't say for certain what's going on here, but the sudden jinking you see in combat flight sims is more likely to come from network latency than a controls exploit.

 

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On 4/14/2020 at 1:32 AM, gimpy117 said:

when is this gonna be fixed? mapping both stab and elevator to one axis produces broken behavior of the aircraft. this is an exploit....it's been years!

i would like to hear from the devs on this 

I fly both sides and I'm all for fixing these issues. Players should still be allowed to map trim on controller axes, but not to co-map on the same axis.

 

BTW the effect is minor in the 109, due to the slow response of it's elevator trim. The exploit works extremely well in the P-51, which not only becomes very nose heavy at high speeds, but loses a lot of it's roll rate as well. Mapping elevator trim on the joy pitch, and aileron trim on the joy roll axis totally transforms the plane at high speeds, especially in combination with the g suit.

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S! 

 

No wonder you see P51D's pulling some spectacular stunts. A real exploit extravaganza going on. But that is nothing new though. If someone can use a loophole to win, they will. 

 

And even devs would plug this by not allowing binding of roll/pitch trim to aileron/elevator axis, the exploiters would just use 3rd party software to bypass that. 

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Posted (edited)

S! 

 

The Bf109 trim thingy was plugged with decreasing speed of the trim wheel to more accurate values. So no real use to map trim to control axis. And frankly, better to fly 109 when trim is used right. 

 

Regarding Pony. Every bit helps in roll department, so mostly usable there. Pitch would require more tweaking to avoid constant stalling at slow speed. But helps at high speed, when even Pony starts to compress. 

 

Nevertheless to myself these exploits are more of a hassle than a real benefit. Let those using them think they are so L33T..🤣

Edited by LLv34_Flanker
Typos

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On 4/17/2020 at 8:14 PM, JG27_PapaFly said:

The exploit works extremely well in the P-51, which not only becomes very nose heavy at high speeds, but loses a lot of it's roll rate as well. Mapping elevator trim on the joy pitch, and aileron trim on the joy roll axis totally transforms the plane at high speeds, especially in combination with the g suit.

 

I tried this and timed rolls at 400mph and 350mph and found no reproducible advantage, especially given the "slop" that develops when trying to re-level the wings. This also leads to a slowdown in counter-roll - if your opponent switches from clockwise to anticlockwise, it will take longer for you to do the same in response as the maxed out aileron trim fights you.

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6 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

I tried this and timed rolls at 400mph and 350mph and found no reproducible advantage, especially given the "slop" that develops when trying to re-level the wings. This also leads to a slowdown in counter-roll - if your opponent switches from clockwise to anticlockwise, it will take longer for you to do the same in response as the maxed out aileron trim fights you.

So, like many of the supposed exploits people think exist in the game, it a)Doesn't work and b)actually makes things worse.

 

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3 hours ago, Talon_ said:

I tried this and timed rolls at 400mph and 350mph and found no reproducible advantage, especially given the "slop" that develops when trying to re-level the wings. This also leads to a slowdown in counter-roll - if your opponent switches from clockwise to anticlockwise, it will take longer for you to do the same in response as the maxed out aileron trim fights you.

1) Try it at higher speeds

2) Adjust the response curve for the trim axis to a much more aggressive response. The response curves can be set independently for e.g. the roll and roll trim response. My roll trim response has a dead zone of about 10 percent, but is then maximally steep and reaches maximum trim input way before I fully deflect the stick.

3) What did you exactly time? What values did you record? You do know that especially Fw-190 pilots like to roll a lot when defensive at high speeds. One classic move is to initiate a left break with a three-quarter roll to the right. By the time a regular mustang finishes the roll I've completed a 90 degree turn. And the elevator trim exploit is very effective in the mustang.

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4 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

1) Try it at higher speeds

2) Adjust the response curve for the trim axis to a much more aggressive response. The response curves can be set independently for e.g. the roll and roll trim response. My roll trim response has a dead zone of about 10 percent, but is then maximally steep and reaches maximum trim input way before I fully deflect the stick.

3) What did you exactly time? What values did you record? You do know that especially Fw-190 pilots like to roll a lot when defensive at high speeds. One classic move is to initiate a left break with a three-quarter roll to the right. By the time a regular mustang finishes the roll I've completed a 90 degree turn. And the elevator trim exploit is very effective in the mustang.

 

1. 400mph is definitely quick enough to notice control stiffening on the Mustang

 

2. I adjusted all the control curves inside and outside of IL-2 using TARGET however I was unable to increase the maximum rate of trim change to a speed equal to the aileron movement, leading to "slop" and a decreased ability to change roll direction quickly.

 

3. I began in level flight and completed three rolls while recording, using elevator and rudder to keep the gunsight on the horizon. Playing back the files in Tacview there was no measurable difference in the deg/sec rate of roll data during rolls 2 and 3. Roll 1 also didn't produce clear results though with a wider margin of error. We can surmise that this is for two reasons:

 

a. Maximum aileron deflection is reached before roll 2 begins regardless of trim setting. Trim cannot increase actual aileron deflection limits any further.

 

b. The trim change is too slow during the entry of roll 1 to make an appreciable difference to aileron deflection speed compared to simply jamming the stick all the way to the side.

 

These two factors combined should explain the results pretty clearly.

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Yo

On 4/22/2020 at 12:51 AM, Talon_ said:

 

1. 400mph is definitely quick enough to notice control stiffening on the Mustang

 

2. I adjusted all the control curves inside and outside of IL-2 using TARGET however I was unable to increase the maximum rate of trim change to a speed equal to the aileron movement, leading to "slop" and a decreased ability to change roll direction quickly.

 

3. I began in level flight and completed three rolls while recording, using elevator and rudder to keep the gunsight on the horizon. Playing back the files in Tacview there was no measurable difference in the deg/sec rate of roll data during rolls 2 and 3. Roll 1 also didn't produce clear results though with a wider margin of error. We can surmise that this is for two reasons:

 

a. Maximum aileron deflection is reached before roll 2 begins regardless of trim setting. Trim cannot increase actual aileron deflection limits any further.

 

b. The trim change is too slow during the entry of roll 1 to make an appreciable difference to aileron deflection speed compared to simply jamming the stick all the way to the side.

 

These two factors combined should explain the results pretty clearly.

Your methodology is flawed.

 

At 450 mph IAS, the P-51 takes 3.75 seconds per 360 degree roll when using the trim exploit, and 4.75 seconds without trim (tracks attached). This was the second roll in a series of rolls. In order to get accurate time readings, I slowed down the playback to 1/4th of the original speed. If you really want to find out what's going on in the roll performance department, please don't use TacView, an app that records a datapoint every 0.25 seconds.

 

So, once and for all: THE TRIM EXPLOIT IS REAL! Under the given test conditions, the Mustang rolls 75°/second without aileron trim, and 96°/second with the trim exploit.

That's a 28% improvement in roll performance.

Mustang_Roll_Trim.zip

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Yo

Your methodology is flawed.

 

: THE TRIM EXPLOIT IS REAL!

 

So now we know; PapaFly has a PhD in feet stamping.......:rolleyes:

Edited by DD_Arthur

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

So know we know; PapaFly has a PhD in feet stamping.......:rolleyes:

 

DD_Arthur,

Do we now know your PhD or is that a no for now? I do not know!

😉

Edited by Haza

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Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2020 at 8:27 PM, JG27_PapaFly said:

So, once and for all: THE TRIM EXPLOIT IS REAL! Under the given test conditions, the Mustang rolls 75°/second without aileron trim, and 96°/second with the trim exploit.

That's a 28% improvement in roll performance.

 

It's true the trim improve a bit the roll rate. 

I also find 27% improvement at 450mph. 

 

-> But here is the result of my tests at 400mph (because you rarely reach 450mph in a fight). 

Without trim: 4,68 4,78 4,71 4,81

With full trim: 4,01 4,05 4,15 4,10

It's 14% improvement. 

 

-> Also, it takes 3.1sec to go from neutral trim position to full trim position.

 

So yes it's amazing to just say "Trim exploit improve by 28% your roll rate!". 

 

But: 

 

-> The improvement decrease with the speed. As the average combat speed of P51 is around 300mph, roll rate improvement will be lower than 14%. Far from being a real advantage. 

 

-> You need 3sec of full aileron deflexion to get the full trim position (if they are on same axis). The roll improvement is far from being instantaneous, and dogfight is not aerobatics. There are no situations where you need to perform such long aileron rolls in a middle of a fight. May be in a defensive barrel roll, but at 600mph, your elevator is almost completely stuck by the speed. Just for 25% improvement, and probably crashing on the ground just after...? Never saw a P51 trying this and I never tried either. 

 

-> When you will stop your roll, you will still have a residual roll rate, the time needed for the trim to go back to neutral position. Definitely not an advantage. In my case, I found it very annoying and unconfortable. That would piss me off in a fight. 

 

IMHO, is the trim exploit a real advantage? Definitely NOT. 

 

 

 

I also tried with the 109's elevator: Didnt even notice a tiny improvement on elevator authority. People jerking out their elevators in a fight are not necesseraly using the trim exploit. They just don't care about breaking their joysticks or simply don't know a better way to avoid shots. 

Fun fact: with elevator and stab on same axis, you loose speed as your stab will generate drag. Not a big deal with a G2 flying at ~515km/h, but with the K4, it's a 15km/h loss. 

 

 

At the end, if some people really use that "trim exploit", who care? At best it brings as much advantages as inconvenients, at worst more incovenients than advantages. 

 

 

EDIT: Didn't tried the "elevator exploit" on the Mustang. But last time I tried to get out of a dive with trim because my elevator was stuck, it didn't saved me at all (no noticeable authority improvement), so.... 

Edited by JG300_Faucon
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