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Ram399

Swiss Bf-109 J-711

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Posted (edited)

Some nice shots of my recently made J-711 G14 skin with the Caucasus mountains standing in for the Swiss Alps.

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Edited by Ram399
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55 minutes ago, Ram399 said:

Some nice shots of my recently made J-711 G14 skin with the Caucasus mountains standing in for the Swiss Alps.

Any chance you share that skin? :)

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5 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

If it's a real swiss 109, shouldn't there be some holes in it?

 

Nah, the holes where actually on the German 109 after the encounter with the Swiss 109.

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6 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

If it's a real swiss 109, shouldn't there be some holes in it?

What a cheezy comment man... 🤣

I like it, carry on and Happy Easter! 🍻

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21 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

If it's a real swiss 109, shouldn't there be some holes in it?

The holes were mainly in the engine. We got this dozen G-6 in exchange for turning this radar equipped Bf-110 G4/R8/B2 into Swiss cheese on the apron of LSMD:

1.jpg.d49f638cab27a8cbef08a5eade5b4829.jpg

 

The production quality of the dozen 109 G6 was such that it caused legal action about that to last until 1958!

 

This illustrates how well these aircraft performed:

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But I do love that skin! :)

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1 minute ago, ZachariasX said:

The production quality of the dozen 109 G6 was such that it caused legal action about that to last until 1958!

I didn't know that!  Makes sense that they would cut corners considering the whole situation with that nightfighter Bf-110 lol.

All in all I would say the Swiss still came out on top of that transaction though: You give us 12 brand new G6s, and in return we'll set your secret Bf-110 on fire.  Deal?

I was inspired to make this skin earlier today when this video was posted, its got a lot of good info on Switzerland's airspace defense over WW2.
 

Spoiler

 

Also shoutout to Mark Felton in general, he does some excellent history videos usually with an emphasis on the more obscure events.

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I actually have Johnen's book. I remember excerpts of it being really interesting to read. Got to finish some other books first, though 😅

 

Did the P-51s come from another deal, or were they "genuinely" bought from the US?

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Here's the true story about Swisserland behaviour in WW2 and about the "dozens" of G6 in exchange of the destruction of a 110 captured with all new radar equipment on board.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Ram399 said:

its got a lot of good info on Switzerland's airspace defense over WW2.

There was considerable action at Dübendorf airport.

 

Especially during the Big Week, there were most guests to be welcomed:

Spoiler

 

 

It is of note that even though the Swiss in general were fond of the Americans, doing busines with them was difficult. It was an attitude thing. The Americans were a bit much used to invading, rather than talking. The occasional bombings of Swiss towns and cities didn't provoke much grudge, as nobody had too many illusions about navigation abilities of average pilots. There was a nortable exception though, this was the bombing of Schaffhausen, that killed 40 and left hundreds homeless. One of the largest Swiss weapon makers (SIG) had their production facilities there. It was suspected that the Americans thought (not without reason) that this factory could supply the germans to whatever extent and had to be dealt with it. The Swiss were very much used to the blackout (manadated by the Germans, else our cities would have been great beacons at night), but air raid drill was nothing people knew. As soon as the sirens went, people went in the streets and to to windows to see the airshow! After this, even the Swiss noticed that this is a tragic idea.

 

Still, the USAF and the Swiss AF mingled a lot, depite the USAF only shot down one 109. (They could have been much worse.) And this not just over the borders, as the bomber streams used to cross Switzerland occasionally on their way to north Africa. My father told me vividly what he witnessed as a kid when the bomber streams and packs of escorts would appear overhead and how the usual SAF fighters would appear only to find themselves in a hopeless situation against the Mustangs and be chased away. It made the Mustang a rather popular aircraft among the spectators.

 

7 minutes ago, =FEW=ayamoth89 said:

true story

Semi true, I'd say. As I posed above and Felton details, it was a trade to keep the Bf-110 radar and weapon arrangement secret. The 12 planes that were received were from a normal production batch, but the engines were such that it could only be described as sabotage. Those aircraft never made it in regular service, but remained largely pet rides in the brief instances when they could be made operational.

 

I'd say we made a bad deal. We should have traded the 110 for a bunch of Mustangs. The Americans would have delivered airworthy planes. Then again, Switzerland needed a daily six trainloads of coal from Germany. In the end there was not so much we could negotiate about.

 

They collected a lot of toys in Dubendorf. A Mossie for instance:

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The techincian that looked at this aircraft when it landed in Dübendorf on Sept. 30th, 1944 called his wife right after the inspection, telling her that he knew why the aliies would win the war. They loved that crate and kept it until 1952. It also served as testbed for jet engines.

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3 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

The Americans were a bit much used to invading, rather than talking.

It seems as if it can't be helped, far too often we take the shoot first ask questions later approach.
My great uncle flew P-47s with the 396th FS but luckily never came near Switzerland as far as I know lol.

From what I've read the SAF downed more than a couple Allied bombers, along with a number of Axis craft over the war, and with US bombers "accidentally" bombing Swiss towns I really don't blame them- I know that I would have definitely done the same.

Probably why the first thing I did upon completing the skin was this:

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56 minutes ago, Ram399 said:

All in all I would say the Swiss still came out on top of that transaction though: You give us 12 brand new G6s, and in return we'll set your secret Bf-110 on fire.  Deal?

 

This was in fact a very bad deal! The G6 they delivered were in really bad condition and of really poor quality - useless at end.

 

29 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Then again, Switzerland needed a daily six trainloads of coal from Germany. In the end there was not so much we could negotiate about.

 

Well, I wouldn't see it that way. Sure, Swiss government was in a some kind of precarious situation, but on the other hand they also had a big trump card to toss in

the game: The secure and reliable rail track through the whole country from north to south (Gotthard line), which was vital for the German army. This way they could

officially transport "neutral" goods such as medical equipment, food rations and coal for Italy. All of this was very needed in the south.

And of course, I don't want to omit the fact, that nobody of the Swiss officials back then even controlled what's really inside of all railroad cars / under the coal. But

that's another story.

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44 minutes ago, Ram399 said:

From what I've read the SAF downed more than a couple Allied bombers

I wouldn't say downed, as those bombers usually lost their formations and were for the most part heavy damaged. There was no SAF plane ever to attack a box formation of B-17's. Nobody would have been stuipd enough to do that in an Emil or worse a Morane. It was more like "very nervous people shown their way to where the food is by other very nervous people".

 

Still, the assertive way of the Americans was not all negative. Just after the war, there was the famous incident of an American plane crashing in the Gauli glacier in bad weather on its way to Italy. The Americans kind of mistook a rescue operation with invading that gacier from Italy to retrieve the stranded crew and passengers. It didn't go well for the Americans and after exhausting their known options, they finally listened to the Swiss (who in turn learned mountaineering by the British hunderd years earlier). Swiss creativity (using German made aircraft to fetch the crew and passengers) led to an air rescue organziation that we're still bloody proud of. But it was not without further "help" of our American friends. On June 30, 1956, two airliners collided over the Grand Canyon. The crash site is rather remote and the collection of bodies and debris was more than challenging. This time, the Americans remembered that the Swiss could be helpful in cleaning up and allowed (it was private initiative!) a Swissair DC-7 to fly Swiss mountain guides to the site and have them parachute in the canyon. 55°C ambient temperature made the use of helicopters impossible. But all in all, it taught us a lot for fetching people, cattle and material of remote sites.

 

46 minutes ago, -=-THERION said:

And of course, I don't want to omit the fact, that nobody of the Swiss officials back then even controlled what's really inside of all railroad cars / under the coal. But

that's another story.

Fair enough. But the Kohlesperre was a frequent threat, especially early in the war when the Germans felt they had more time poking the Swiss.

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On 4/10/2020 at 2:03 AM, ZachariasX said:

The production quality of the dozen 109 G6 was such that it caused legal action about that to last until 1958!

 

So, what ended up happening with the case?

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2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

So, what ended up happening with the case?

I find no documents about an outcome. I can‘t imagine Switzerland getting more than an equivalent of a roll of duct tape from that. Else, that would be as much of a public episode as the incident that caused it all.

 

My guess is that the persons responsible for that little feud just got retired nobody felt like picking up on that matter and the affair was mutually shelved for good. It was really in nobodys interest. After the war, Switzerland got rather intimately involved in getting Germany rebuilt as a mean to develop their own market. Follies were frowned upon in general. Personal relationships mattered way more than red tape. Lawyering was absolutely out of place. Because of this, Switzerland got away with almost anything until the late 90‘s. Until that time, there were still people around that well remembered who was practical when Germany was pariah. After that, not so much anymore and sh*t hit the fan in bilateral politics. A startled Switzerland then had to find a new approach in dealing with Germany. We‘re still working on that.

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On 4/10/2020 at 11:43 AM, ZachariasX said:

There was considerable action at Dübendorf airport.

 

Especially during the Big Week, there were most guests to be welcomed:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

It is of note that even though the Swiss in general were fond of the Americans, doing busines with them was difficult. It was an attitude thing. The Americans were a bit much used to invading, rather than talking. The occasional bombings of Swiss towns and cities didn't provoke much grudge, as nobody had too many illusions about navigation abilities of average pilots. There was a nortable exception though, this was the bombing of Schaffhausen, that killed 40 and left hundreds homeless. One of the largest Swiss weapon makers (SIG) had their production facilities there. It was suspected that the Americans thought (not without reason) that this factory could supply the germans to whatever extent and had to be dealt with it. The Swiss were very much used to the blackout (manadated by the Germans, else our cities would have been great beacons at night), but air raid drill was nothing people knew. As soon as the sirens went, people went in the streets and to to windows to see the airshow! After this, even the Swiss noticed that this is a tragic idea.

 

Still, the USAF and the Swiss AF mingled a lot, depite the USAF only shot down one 109. (They could have been much worse.) And this not just over the borders, as the bomber streams used to cross Switzerland occasionally on their way to north Africa. My father told me vividly what he witnessed as a kid when the bomber streams and packs of escorts would appear overhead and how the usual SAF fighters would appear only to find themselves in a hopeless situation against the Mustangs and be chased away. It made the Mustang a rather popular aircraft among the spectators.

 

Semi true, I'd say. As I posed above and Felton details, it was a trade to keep the Bf-110 radar and weapon arrangement secret. The 12 planes that were received were from a normal production batch, but the engines were such that it could only be described as sabotage. Those aircraft never made it in regular service, but remained largely pet rides in the brief instances when they could be made operational.

 

I'd say we made a bad deal. We should have traded the 110 for a bunch of Mustangs. The Americans would have delivered airworthy planes. Then again, Switzerland needed a daily six trainloads of coal from Germany. In the end there was not so much we could negotiate about.

 

They collected a lot of toys in Dubendorf. A Mossie for instance:

60326_900.jpg

 

The techincian that looked at this aircraft when it landed in Dübendorf on Sept. 30th, 1944 called his wife right after the inspection, telling her that he knew why the aliies would win the war. They loved that crate and kept it until 1952. It also served as testbed for jet engines.

 

Very interesting facts, thanks for sharing! First time I ever read something about the air war in Switzerland, I have to admit.

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5 hours ago, lantern53 said:

Beautiful skin...which 109 is this for? tks


Its made for the G14, thanks.

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