Developer Diary, Part XV

[Peshka]

I have seen data for flight sims in 2011 that is

 

.... 62% offline only

.....19% offline mainly and some online

.... 11% online mainly and some offline

....  8 % online only

 

As i have said in post above, i think 777 have data facts from Rise of Flight? Maybe they want to say?

[JG13_opcode]

I have seen data for flight sims in 2011 that is

 

.... 62% offline only

.....19% offline mainly and some online

.... 11% online mainly and some offline

....  8 % online only

 

As i have said in post above, i think 777 have data facts from Rise of Flight? Maybe they want to say?

Sure but does that data include people who fly the civilian sims? There's almost no point at all in flying those online.

 

I imagine if you limited the survey to combat flight simmers, the proportion of only-offline players would be much smaller.

 

I'm with ElAurens on this one; if there's no multiplayer, or if the multiplayer is not at least as functional as 1946 was at launch, I'm not buying the new sim.

[Feathered_IV]

There is only so much they can do in a single year. If their research proves indisputably that the majority of players are SP, then it makes perfect sense to concentrate on making that aspect first.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Feathered_IV

[AndyJWest]

 

...if there's no multiplayer...

 

Nobody has said that there will be no multiplayer.

[Bearcat]

Am I the only one who finds this just a bit troubling?

 

Will there be any online/multiplayer content at all?

 

Should those of us that are primarily online flyers just wait a year or two before committing funds to the project?

 

Odd way to secure your financial future, buy alienating one part of the community.

 

I am not troubled at all... nothing will trouble me really until I get the sim and see what it has to offer.... but I certainly do understand your concern.

 

Is this the result of the impossibly short deadline to produce a marketable sim?

 

This is dire news for those of us that fly online.

 

Be sure that if online is marginal or hobbled in any way from what we have come to expect,

that I, and many others will not be putting down cash just to "support the genre".

 

Economic times being what they are, I will no longer just blindly purchase any flight sim

that does not meet my requirements for value.

 

Loyalty is an earned thing, it should never be an expectation.

 

I don't see where you get that online will be marginalized or hobbled... 

 

 

Online players are a small number compared to offline players but they make big noise on forums

It makes a good business decision to concentrate on the biggest number of buyers.

 

777 know the numbers from Rise of Flight.

 

I think the key thing to keep in mind with all this is

This or any other game mode you will be able to make without assistance. BoS will be created primarily as a game for a single player. We'll closely monitor everything and develop precisely those elements that will be most popular. But we don't plan anything complex for the multiplayer at launch.

 

That doesn't mean that there won't be a multiplayer... or that it won't work.  The way I read that is .. at launch they are going to try to do what they need to do to keep sales up and the product going. If the sales are strong then they will be able to continue to work on the greater aspects of the sim but the first 6 months will probably be critical and determine whether or not the sim will be viable in the long term. From my perspective... if it looks good and flies good..I am all in .. If there are some things that don't work as well as I would like them to ...then at least I would have a product that does work. The biggest problem with CoD was that it did not work well on a wide enough range of rigs at release... If it had been released in it's current state we would not be here. If 777 had not taken over RoF it would not be what it is today.. I take all that to mean that the future of this sim is in good hands from the developer end.. but it needs to be in good hands from the simmer's end.. as in support.. so we shall see.

[AX2]

I have seen data for flight sims in 2011 that is

 

.... 62% offline only

.....19% offline mainly and some online

.... 11% online mainly and some offline

....  8 % online only

 

As i have said in post above, i think 777 have data facts from Rise of Flight? Maybe they want to say?

 

Wrong !

 

If the game is not oriented to multiplayer, and you can't fly coops with some developers support, or you have some lack in multiplayer.

Ofcourse at the end you will get 8% online only, Principles action-reaction law. 

But how many ( players ) money you lost on the way, a long of the years ?..  

Edited April 14, 2013 by Mustang

[BlitzPig_EL]

So, this means you can ignore 10% of your customers?

[AndyJWest]

No, just the ones who appear not to be capable of reading...

 

Nobody has said that there will be no multiplayer option.

[BlitzPig_EL]

That's not how I'm reading it.

 

Only time will tell.

 

But rest assured that I will not pre-order, and I will wait for reports

from folks I trust before I drop any coin on this one.

 

We got fooled on CloD, I won't let that happen again.

[DD_Arthur]

Banana fever.  Yawn.

[AndyJWest]

ElAurens, Read this:

 

 

 All players, even those who prefer only online battles will go through several stages of the campaign

 

Now tell me how that (or any of the many other references to multiplayer gaming that the developers have already made) could possibly be interpreted as a statement that there won't be a multiplayer option... 

Edited April 14, 2013 by AndyJWest

[BlitzPig_EL]

Andy, if you wouldn't go into full defense mode for a title that neither you nor I have any real clue about, this would go a whole lot smoother.

 

Now, there are several different ways to interpret "All players, even those who prefer only online battles will go through several stages of the campaign".

 

Without a full description from Loft about what that statement actually means for the online player, it's anybody's guess just what the online content will be.

 

Are we all being forced to play campaign mode?

 

Will we be able to make our own missions as in the past?

 

Will we be able to fly with just our mates on passworded servers flying missions of our own design?

 

These are important questions to those of us who have flown online together since day one of IL2.

 

You can choose to believe it or not, but many people's purchase decision will be based on the answers to these questions.

 

With only the new IL2 on the horizon for WW2 air combat, it is very very important that these issues be handled well by the dev team.

 

With CloD being a dead end now, and IL2/46 getting more and more dated by the month, this new sim is the only hope for those of us that

call the virtual aerial online world ours.

Edited April 14, 2013 by ElAurens

[Bearcat]

Yes but El... that works both ways..

 

Andy, if you wouldn't go into full defense mode for a title that neither you nor I have any real clue about, this would go a whole lot smoother.

Now, there are several different ways to interpret "All players, even those who prefer only online battles will go through several stages of the campaign".

Without a full description from Loft about what that statement actually means for the online player, it's anybody's guess just what the online content will be.

Are we all being forced to play campaign mode?

Will we be able to make our own missions as in the past?

Will we be able to fly with just our mates on passworded servers flying missions of our own design?

These are important questions to those of us who have flown online together since day one of IL2.

You can choose to believe it or not, but many people's purchase decision will be based on the answers to these questions.

With only the new IL2 on the horizon for WW2 air combat, it is very very important that these issues be handled well by the dev team.

With CloD being a dead end now, and IL2/46 getting more and more dated by the month, this new sim is the only hope for those of us that

call the virtual aerial online world ours.

 

Yes but El... that works both ways.. I mean you are talking about

 

So, this means you can ignore 10% of your customers?

 

I think it is reasonable to have concerns and desires for how you would like it to be.. but let's not start fanning any flames of discontent yet..

[JG13_opcode]

No, I feel that El is raising a reasonable and justifiable concern, and we don't need Andy jumping down people's throats just for expressing trepidation.

 

This part, right here:

Mission events for single player will be created on the server and is unique in the details each time for each player. This will always be a unique experience and fair play for all, as you will not know what to expect until you get to the map. The events on the ground will be developed as close to the historical realities in the different periods of the Battle of Stalingrad.

Note the word "server"... singleplayer sure doesn't need one, so this reads as if we will be forced to fly multiplayer with missions being generated dynamically or from a script or something.

 

Who knows how much control there will be? Certainly not Andy.

Edited April 14, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[FlatSpinMan]

Best advice: Wait. Calm down. Everybody be cool.

We are still months out from release. Given their backgrounds it is reasonable to assume the devs have a good awareness of online modes of play. They mentioned a focus on single player, but that does not mean multiplayer wil be abandoned.

 

Everybody make like Fonzie. And what is Fonzie like?

[TJT]

Quote

BoS will be created primarily as a game for a single player

 

Excellent news and music to my ears.

 

-----

 

I'm happy that they shot at the market from this angle too as there are other (Russian) companys that aim at the online war type of crowd already.

Imo not trying to compete directly at release with them for this niche market within a niche  is probebly a good thing.
Especially given how demanding about what should be included and for free people are nowdays..... Better to focus on one aspect and get it solid then try to be a jack of all trades at release.

And they didnt say they would be completly without multiplayer, just that single player would be the focus initially.

Edited April 14, 2013 by TJT

[dburne]

 

This part, right here:

Note the word "server"... singleplayer sure doesn't need one, so this reads as if we will be forced to fly multiplayer with missions being generated dynamically or from a script or something.

 

 

I have fairly recently gotten into ROF. WWI is really not my thing, I much prefer WWII era, but wanted to give it a try namely because 777 is involved now in developing the next WWII sim.

I myself am a single player , I just don't get into the multiplayer aspect at least for now and the foreseeable future. When you launch ROF, you can either log in online, or offline. It has a Career Mode, which is still in beta, but is quite a lot of fun. It is single player, but requires one to be logged in online to access the career mode, and obviously requires data from the server.

 

I would suspect they are going to do something similar with BOS, and I would think anyways, that BOS would at least have the same, or similar multiplayer capabilities, as ROF currently does.

[FlatSpinMan]

Okay, so there is clearly some uncertainty about what the multiplayer portion will be. Lets make a couple of concise key questions that the Devs might answer next week.

 

[JtD]

Everybody make like Fonzie. And what is Fonzie like?

Old. :D

 

Personally I think focussing on the biggest marked (and that's what SP is) is a good thing. If they had said they were going for the 1% of the community that's constantly whining on some internet boards, I'd expect a game as good and successful as CloD. I think that a good offline mode is the basis for a large and longliving community. Nonetheless, I sure hope there'll be some good stuff for online, too.

[Bearcat]

Best advice: Wait. Calm down. Everybody be cool.

We are still months out from release. Given their backgrounds it is reasonable to assume the devs have a good awareness of online modes of play. They mentioned a focus on single player, but that does not mean multiplayer wil be abandoned.

 

Everybody make like Fonzie. And what is Fonzie like?

 

That is exactly my point.. and as I said I understand El's concerns.. but at this point it is just too early to go into panic mode. Doggles .. don't forget the language thing.. for all you know he could mean the PC running the sim when he says "server"...

 

Okay, so there is clearly some uncertainty about what the multiplayer portion will be. Lets make a couple of concise key questions that the Devs might answer next week.

 

Sensible advice...

 

The bottom line for me is... You can please some of the people all of the time .. and all of the people some of the time... but you can't do both.. I like both online and off line .. and for me as long as there is an online component that has the potential for expansion I am all in. I realize that there will be certain limitations whose breakthrough will depend directly on support for the sim out of the gate.. For me though, if this product is delivered some time in 2014 as scheduled,  then my faith in the devs will not be shaken at all.. even if it is a little late. Just for comparison .. in the case of CoD for me ... my faith was based on Oleg & 1C in terms of their reputation with IL2.. but if you look back there were indications from the jump almost that CoD would have issues.. but I supported it anyway in spite of the fact that it came out years later than it was originally planned.. and even then it had basic functionality issues right out of the gate that rendered it almost inoperable for too many people so for me a large part of how much support I give BoS will have less to do with what the fine details of what's in it upon release and more to do with it's overall functionality and the timeliness of the release.. because if they release a working product.. a well working product even if it lacks certain features initially that will tell me that they have a plan and they are true to their word.. So far I have seen nothing to indicate the contrary.

[philiped]

 

With CloD being a dead end now,

 

Have you seen the work Team Fusion is doing? By the time BoS Is out, you will have more than enough choice for online WW2 battles. Hardly a dead end. More an alternative avenue.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Gents,

 

I'm not trying to wind anyone up, really I'm not.

 

I'm just concerned. Many of you guys have known me for a long time.

I love online, it's why I still have RoF, IL2/46(stock and HSFX) and CloD on my drives.

I want every part of what's left of the WW2 air combat "community" to find satisfaction in

their choice of play style.

 

So please forgive me for championing my favorite way to use flight sims.

 

philliped,

 

I have the TF patch applied to my CloD install, it's a very good improvement, be sure!

However, with the complexity of every aspect of CloD, there is no way a group of part time enthusiasts like TF,

can possibly expand the sim in any timely manner. We will be stuck with the English Channel for a very long time.

Yes, I frequent their website, and know of their plans for a Med expansion, but they will never be able to produce

all the extra aircraft needed, not to mention ships, at the quality level of the original sim, in less than 2 years.

Just having any old 3D model will not do when they will be placed in stark comparison to the original CloD models.

 

I don't want to see a repeat of the early days of modding for IL2 when there were massive numbers of substandard models

that eveyone said were "great", and are now all forgotten because they were actually rubbish.

 

I hope you are right though. I'm just not going to go off the deep end of enthusiasm any more.

 

Once bitten, twice shy.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Ok, all this discussion came cus Loft said they will not release new MP modes?? If I recall right he was answering to a quiestion regarding new MP modes, not the ones that allready are usable in RoF, I guess DN engine can handle the same modes at BoS, this is, Coop, DM, capture the flag. I didnt get from his answer this 3 modes wont be there from release, sure they are, what it wont be there on release will be NEW Mp modes thats it.

 

I can live 6 months or so untill a new MP mode is release?? sure yes I can. Been waiting for a good WWII sim a lot of years (not the russian front but hey...better than nothing I guess).

Edited April 14, 2013 by SYN_Haashashin

[Sokol1]

The biggest problem with all this is use of "il-2 Sturmovik" name, a double-edged sword.

This implies harness the series marketing but at the same implies - for many:

 

Have the SAME il-2 FMB

Have the SAME il-2 QMB

have the same il-2 online possibilities

Have the SAME il-2 COOP system

Have the SAME support for "online" WAR's.

Etc. etc.

 

Even CLoD, made by same developer and largest based in same engine fail in offer it - despite not having exactly this proposal...

 

RoF engine is a different thing - even better will not do things in the SAME way (Take as an example the FMB editor question).

If the new game are simply "The Battle of Stalingrad" or whatever, the things going simple and all are happy at the end.

 

In our local community, if game are not "online" oriented most will ignore it.

 

Sokol1

 

 

 

[Jason_Williams]

It is true that the vast majority of users are primarily SP players, but we don't "ignore MP" users either.

 

BOS will have online MP capability. Are we doing anything extremely new with online for launch? No. Will we consider and investigate adding, inventing new MP features or re-vamping old features once we know the general popularity of the product and receiving some feedback on the initial product? Yes.

 

We simply do not have the time or the budget to re-invent the wheel in the dev cycle. We are forced to make hard choices every day of where to invest our talents and budget. We always have ideas on new modes of gameplay, but no budget or time to build them. It's the curse of being a professional developer, especially in a niche market. I hope some of you can respect the challenge we have before us and would rather have a sim that works well at launch instead of many half-baked modes of gameplay that don't work.

 

And we are absolutely not the same developer as CLOD.

 

The budget and time spent on CLOD about destroyed any hope of another hardcore prop sim such as this being produced. We are lucky to have the budget we have to give you BOS. Please get behind the project to help us make it a success.

 

Jason

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thank you for the reply Jason.

[Rjel]

I absolutely admire the honesty and openest displayed by the developers. Unless everything goes south in a hurry I'm willing to invest in BoS' future.

[Bearcat]

It is true that the vast majority of users are primarily SP players, but we don't "ignore MP" users either.

 

BOS will have online MP capability. Are we doing anything extremely new with online for launch? No. Will we consider and investigate adding, inventing new MP features or re-vamping old features once we know the general popularity of the product and receiving some feedback on the initial product? Yes.

 

We simply do not have the time or the budget to re-invent the wheel in the dev cycle. We are forced to make hard choices every day of where to invest our talents and budget. We always have ideas on new modes of gameplay, but no budget or time to build them. It's the curse of being a professional developer, especially in a niche market. I hope some of you can respect the challenge we have before us and would rather have a sim that works well at launch instead of many half-baked modes of gameplay that don't work.

 Please get behind the project to help us make it a success.

 

Jason

 

That is the bottom line.. as much as so many want to speak on what they will or will not tolerate.. the bottom line is that if we do not support the project those who are naysayers will get what they put into it back.... and in reality it is just too early to get too worked up in either direction because the sim is still at least 8 months out..

[JG13_opcode]

Please get behind the project to help us make it a success.

 

Jason

Jason, respectfully, the community is not responsible for making the game a success. That responsibility lies with the development team. If it's a good game, we'll support it. If it's not, then we won't.

 

Every other market works the same way, and you are not entitled to a certain level of support from the community, or a particular number of sales.

 

I'm sorry to be blunt, but saying that the hopes of WWII sims rely on us buying your game before we even know anything about it is trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

 

The attitude you are displaying with this post is the same attitude that Luthier displayed during CLOD development. We are right to be cautious; the ball's in your court, not ours.

 

I truly and sincerely wish you the best with this endeavor, but I'm not prepared to become a sycophant like other here seem to be.

Edited April 15, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[Jason_Williams]

Small markets like this one have very few oppoortunities to move forward. If those potential customers that are at least remotely interested in such a product fail to get behind a working product, even if they don't like ALL of the design decisions, the hardcore genre will probbly die. What I object to is the absolutism I see that pollutes this genre to the point where good products aren't given a chance to succeed because of small issues. Just as you are being cautious, so are we and we're not promising you everything under the sun. That is the responsible approach. You should applaud that. You got burned before and we don't plan to do that again. You're right, it is a market, but maybe the market isn't viable anymore. That does happen on occassion. I can't tell you how many investors have told me to go make tablet games.

 

And since you want to be blunt, you don't know anything about my attitude and don't accuse me of lying to you. I wake up every day trying to give you something this community will enjoy and our previous product is proof of just that.  Luthier did the same thing from what I know. I just don't mince words and am honest with the sim community. No point in BSing you. No one is asking you to be a fanboi. Just consider buying the product as Loft shows you what we are doing. And notice I said "help".

 

Jason

[=69.GIAP=TARAS]

Hello Jason.

There are some questions left unanswered in the "questions for developers" part of the forums. Mainly about squad vs squad possibilities.

Will it be possible for the community to develop "online wars" system like we have with SEOW in Il-2, or will the squad vs squad "wars" be on a RoF level?

We will buy your product either way, but you can also help online squads survive. Il-2 is getting to old. We all had high hopes for Clod but...

Some long lasting squads just vanished and the rest are strugling to stay together. I'm sure you know that squads are pushing the envelope and squeezing the most out of every sim. Help us and we will help you.

Thanks and ~S~!

Edited April 15, 2013 by =69.GIAP=TARAS

[AX2]

Small markets like this one have very few oppoortunities to move forward. If those potential customers that are at least remotely interested in such a product fail to get behind a working product, even if they don't like ALL of the design decisions, the hardcore genre will probbly die. What I object to is the absolutism I see that pollutes this genre to the point where good products aren't given a chance to succeed because of small issues. Just as you are being cautious, so are we and we're not promising you everything under the sun. That is the responsible approach. You should applaud that. You got burned before and we don't plan to do that again. You're right, it is a market, but maybe the market isn't viable anymore. That does happen on occassion. I can't tell you how many investors have told me to go make tablet games.

 

And since you want to be blunt, you don't know anything about my attitude and don't accuse me of lying to you. I wake up every day trying to give you something this community will enjoy and our previous product is proof of just that.  Luthier did the same thing from what I know. I just don't mince words and am honest with the sim community. No point in BSing you. No one is asking you to be a fanboi. Just consider buying the product as Loft shows you what we are doing. And notice I said "help".

 

Jason

 

 

 

the hardcore genre will probbly die.

 

Thanks for reply, Thanks for your honesty!

BoS is the last remaining hope for me, and the last hope for  many players.

Boys! we  must support BoS!, maybe is the last hope, We must think about it.

Destroy is  very easy, and build is very difficult...Now I can understand.

The SIM hardcore genre is dying, we must fight all together for a big for success.

We must give time to developers  ...and after the success of BoS, we can request some features.

I trust on you Jason!

Edited April 15, 2013 by Mustang

[Jason_Williams]

Mustang,

 

Thanks for the support and enthusiasm, but let's not swing back the other way to the other extreme. This is what polarizes this sim community, that once was a bit more cohesive and interested in just flying and having fun and less about who's right and who's wrong. It's exhausting for all involved. 

 

All we want is users to be open minded and be like hey, cool there is a new Sturmovik. I hear it works and seems to have some cool planes and features, let me give this a try. If you like it tell your buddies. The extreme criticism and in some cases extreme support just get's people riled up and forces myself and others to argue with people we don't want to argue with or we just shut up and don't deal with it. Neither is ideal. Myself and the team wants to focus on the fun we will have when the product is released and the cool features and content it will have.

 

I hate to paint a pessemistic picture of the genre, that was not my opinion 5 years ago when I started 777. But experience has shown me how difficult it is to make these kinds of products a success. The develoeprs, the community and changes to the market are all to blame in one way or another for the dirth of success in this genre. No need to point fingers any more. Let's enjoy Loft's Diaries and info and as development get's closer the picture will be come clearer and we can look forward to the release.

 

Jason

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I wont buy it unless it has all of Hitlers secret technolgies unlockable in deathmatch gameplay that only allows me to win every round and everyone else lose. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    

 

 

Cant wait for BoS, keep up the good work, looking forward to those dog fight vids!!!

[Freycinet]

I'm sorry to be blunt, but saying that the hopes of WWII sims rely on us buying your game before we even know anything about it is trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

 

The attitude you are displaying with this post is the same attitude that Luthier displayed during CLOD development. 

 

Accusing the developer of lying... - Classy.   

[Kling]

Gents,

 

I'm not trying to wind anyone up, really I'm not.

 

I'm just concerned. Many of you guys have known me for a long time.

I love online, it's why I still have RoF, IL2/46(stock and HSFX) and CloD on my drives.

I want every part of what's left of the WW2 air combat "community" to find satisfaction in

their choice of play style.

 

So please forgive me for championing my favorite way to use flight sims.

 

philliped,

 

I have the TF patch applied to my CloD install, it's a very good improvement, be sure!

However, with the complexity of every aspect of CloD, there is no way a group of part time enthusiasts like TF,

can possibly expand the sim in any timely manner. We will be stuck with the English Channel for a very long time.

Yes, I frequent their website, and know of their plans for a Med expansion, but they will never be able to produce

all the extra aircraft needed, not to mention ships, at the quality level of the original sim, in less than 2 years.

Just having any old 3D model will not do when they will be placed in stark comparison to the original CloD models.

 

I don't want to see a repeat of the early days of modding for IL2 when there were massive numbers of substandard models

that eveyone said were "great", and are now all forgotten because they were actually rubbish.

 

I hope you are right though. I'm just not going to go off the deep end of enthusiasm any more.

 

Once bitten, twice shy.

Then you didnt see their Malta WIP screenshot...

[Skoshi_Tiger]

 

6) Not so much a question as a wish that the developers don't forget that there are people that suffer from color-blindness.

 

 

Thanks.

 

As one of the 10% of men that sufferer from Red-Green colour blindness (my pilot's licence is endorsed "DAYLIGHT FLYING ONLY" ) I do not ask any special consideration for this condition.

In real life I expect this condition would have precluded me from flying as a combat pilot, so in flying a sim I actually would like to experience the situation where this condition would make a noticeable difference, even if it is detrimental to my game play. These are the cards I was dealt and I actually want to play with them!

 

Cheers!

Edited April 15, 2013 by Skoshi_Tiger

[FlatSpinMan]

>McGraw-Hill Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs. ?

[JtD]

Thanks for these statements Jason...but then again, I see you asking for support and I start to wonder why actual support offers have rarely been accepted so far.

[BraveSirRobin]

Thanks for these statements Jason...but then again, I see you asking for support and I start to wonder why actual support offers have rarely been accepted so far.

 

He wants you do buy the game.