Some before and after on new diffused reflections (Work in progress). Info for skinners.

[ICDP]

Hi all,

 

The recent developer diary gave a sneak peek of the new lighting and reflections from the deferred rendering changes.  I wanted to show some before and after screenshots that I hope helps to show the new more diffused reflections.  I will give some info on any impact this will have on existing skins and the talented artists who devote their time making them for the community.

 

PLEASE NOTE: These are form a Work in Progress version of the sim and may not be final.

 

So there's a bit of a conundrum for skinners.  We spend a long time fussing over getting the alpha layers just right.  I won't lie to you, this new reflection and lighting system WILL most likely change how all the work you painstakingly done looks.  It's unlikely to break it as the difference is "mostly" subtle but for me, when I saw it in action I genuinely didn't care that I have a lot of tweaking to do.  It really does look worth it in sim.  So when i said it will make your work look different, it may do so in a good way.  Camouflaged skins are much improved with the wet look removed.  Bare metal skins no longer have the chrome mirrored look.  Obviously this will upset some people but to me they look much more realistic for wartime aircraft.

 

Lets look at some screenshots taken at the same settings and with the same planes.  Obviously these are static screenshots, in the sim the reflections are dynamic.

 

First the existing public release of the sim.

 

Note the reflection of the wing on the fuselage.  It is quite defined and is too mirror like.

 

The same skin with the newer WiP reflections

 

Note the sharply defined prop blade reflection

 

Compare the more diffused reflection of the prop blade.

 

Look at the reflection on the flap.

 

And now the newer WiP deferred rendering  The reflections are a lot more diffused and the "mirrored wet look" many don't like, is gone.

 

 

The wing reflection on the fuselage again has an excessive mirrored look to it.

 

Same skin new lighting.

 

I will test some skins from the more active skinners here for a before and after.

Edited April 4, 2020 by ICDP

[keeno]

That does look super impressive, I actually like both looks!

[szelljr]

At last !!! i hate that chrome mirrored look. .

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

If the skinner desires a post war polished metal finish will that still be possible as well? Can the alpha (or another) layer be tweaked to give the polished/wet look? Not a skinner, per se, but curious.

[Rjel]

49 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

If the skinner desires a post war polished metal finish will that still be possible as well? Can the alpha (or another) layer be tweaked to give the polished/wet look? Not a skinner, per se, but curious.

Maybe not the "wet" look but the ability to have a really polished look? I prefer a clean looking NMF on my skins, with just a hint of wear and tear. Your screens of the Mustang look perfect, BTW.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I don't prefer it either but say someone wants to produce a modern Crazy Horse version for their personal use.

[ICDP]

Here is a comparison of a clean P51 skin from Tom Weiss.  The metal has a more brushed rather than polished look but I prefer the new look over the old one but it really is subjective on these modern clean warbirds.  The polished chrome look is generally out of place on a WWI era plane in my opinion.  Somewhere in between might be a good balance but I'm personally preferring the new style if it was a take it or leave it choice.

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by ICDP

[Danziger]

How does it look on something meant to be more matte like a late war 190 or a matte green P40?

Also, are these screens with the exact same time and weather? The terrain color looks a bit different as well.

[Flying_Colander]

ICDP,

 

Thanks for walking us through the Before and Afters. I didn't know what to look for on Friday and didn't understand the Update. Now I appreciate the great improvement.

 

Cheers.

[Reggie_Mental]

I prefer the original highly polished look.

 

It looks 'faster' and more 'metal-ey'

 

 

[Gambit21]

So much better now.

[Rjel]

1 hour ago, ICDP said:

 

 

I think this effect is great, it shows the reflective shine of the aluminum perfectly I think. It's much more realistic than what we have currently. Thanks for taking the time to post these screenshots.

[[FAC]Ghost129er]

I'm somewhat for and against this... Say for example, I've skinned the Bald Eagle P-51 skin, now that scheme has quite a bit, if not, almost entirely polished metal (as is the Reno racer Precious Metal) that can be seen in a few sample images:

Does that mean we won't be able to do this or will we be able to or what exactly..? Many skins have specifically fine tuned and adjusted Alpha channels to get this effect or whatever they want the paint finish to come out as, for people who've done countless number of skins, will we have to redo all our paintschemes..?

I'm just asking because this could very well be the make it or break it for polished metal skins, where as above, they would require this super polished finished, world war or not...

As it is, almost all the skins seem too unrealistically glossy/polished in game (default skins especially) but if the global variable was changed to fix just a few default skins, then that means there's about 100 skins I have to redo all over again. I can only imagine what it'd be like for a lot of other people who've made 200+ skins (and some have) but yeah, I'm just concerned as I'd really like to have my polished Bald Eagle skin as well as Precious Metal skin...

Edit: An option could be a toggleable way to enable or disable it like I suppose? I honestly feel that all most of the default skins need are just some Soft Light black overlay on them to darken the alpha channel and I've done this for a lot of the default skins that I see commonly on our server to counter the highly polished look they have... I'm not trying to be negative and immediately turn down this shading effect, but honestly, it really could be fixed by just darkening the Alpha channels of all the default skins a lot... I've seen a lot of custom skins where people actually have adjusted their alpha channels really carefully and that's another skill/what makes skins special and really something 'well done' depending on how the skin is done.

Just my two cents there.

Edited April 4, 2020 by [FAC]Ghost129er

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I can understand that an existing skin will look different under the two systems.  The question I have is, can the Alpha be reworked to regain the amount of reflection one may want?

[[FAC]Ghost129er]

2 minutes ago, VBF-12_Stick-95 said:

I can understand that an existing skin will look different under the two systems.  The question I have is, can the Alpha be reworked to regain the amount of reflection one may want?

 

This. So much this. It would be a real stab I feel as I always found these mirrored finishes a really cool thing; especially for the P-51, P-47 and P-38... From what it sounds by ICDP, no, not at all...

3 hours ago, ICDP said:

Obviously this will upset some people but to me they look much more realistic for wartime aircraft.

But like any conversation regarding opinions and thoughts, there will be people for and against it, and i just hope there's a way to enable/disable this rendering effect.

[336th_Ripper*]

Thanks @ICDP. Once the final version is out, from what you are saying here, if people want a more authentic look from WWII time period, then all current templates do no require an adjustment in the alpha layer, but rather only those looking for a more reflective look? 

[Ribbon]

1 hour ago, [FAC]Ghost129er said:

I'm somewhat for and against this... Say for example, I've skinned the Bald Eagle P-51 skin, now that scheme has quite a bit, if not, almost entirely polished metal (as is the Reno racer Precious Metal) that can be seen in a few sample images:

Does that mean we won't be able to do this or will we be able to or what exactly..? Many skins have specifically fine tuned and adjusted Alpha channels to get this effect or whatever they want the paint finish to come out as, for people who've done countless number of skins, will we have to redo all our paintschemes..?

I'm just asking because this could very well be the make it or break it for polished metal skins, where as above, they would require this super polished finished, world war or not...

As it is, almost all the skins seem too unrealistically glossy/polished in game (default skins especially) but if the global variable was changed to fix just a few default skins, then that means there's about 100 skins I have to redo all over again. I can only imagine what it'd be like for a lot of other people who've made 200+ skins (and some have) but yeah, I'm just concerned as I'd really like to have my polished Bald Eagle skin as well as Precious Metal skin...

Edit: An option could be a toggleable way to enable or disable it like I suppose? I honestly feel that all most of the default skins need are just some Soft Light black overlay on them to darken the alpha channel and I've done this for a lot of the default skins that I see commonly on our server to counter the highly polished look they have... I'm not trying to be negative and immediately turn down this shading effect, but honestly, it really could be fixed by just darkening the Alpha channels of all the default skins a lot... I've seen a lot of custom skins where people actually have adjusted their alpha channels really carefully and that's another skill/what makes skins special and really something 'well done' depending on how the skin is done.

Just my two cents there.

You can't compare today's ww2 warbirds from someones collection which are vax polished and given special treatment before airshows by groud crew with those back in ww2.

Military just don't do that!

 

I think leveling down grey tones in aplha channel and you'll still have that shiny mirror look after new rendering drops in.

Shouldn't be much work as reworking them from scratch!

 

 

Thanks @ICDP, welcome improvement and does look better!

I already redone current alpha channels for p51,p38 and p47 to avoid excessive mirroring and wet look so i guess stock alpha channel will be just fine when new rendering drops in.

Maybe custom alpha channel for camo p51/38/47 will need tweak!

 

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by EAF_Ribbon

[Jaegermeister]

I think the new rendering looks great! I really like the way you still get reflections from the aluminum but none on the painted surfaces like invasion stripes or anti-glare surfaces. I have never been a fan of the wet mirror look on a combat aircraft. Once that aluminum is in the elements for a while, it would never look that way.

 

It looks like I will wait until after the next patch to release the P-38 skins for the upcoming “Lightning Strikes” campaign. I might have to tweak the alpha layers a bit. Maybe not though, it will be fun to see.

 

And a toggleable (is that even a word?) deferred rendering seems far fetched to me.

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, Reggie_Mental said:

I prefer the original highly polished look.

 

It looks 'faster' and more 'metal-ey'

 

Which is fine for postwar skins but is entirely out of place for wartime skins. The new effects look entirely better for that. 

[Jade_Monkey]

Thank you for sharing the screenshots! I think it will be a great upgrade.

 

Other than planes, what else will look different with the deferred shading? Will this have a big impact on water? What about clouds? Vegetation?

 

Could DS have an impact on visibility when a plane is flying low? sometimes it's hard to see as they blend against the landscape very much. Would a different shader perhaps show a bigger contrast between plane and background (i dont mean to artificially make it stand out). 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Jade_Monkey

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

31 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Which is fine for postwar skins but is entirely out of place for wartime skins. The new effects look entirely better for that. 

 

I agree. Highly polished is absolutely inappropriate for wartime skins.  

 

My initial inquiry was specifically regarding post war skins; Will guys who want to paint up currently flying AC, such as War Horse or the Red Bull P-38, which are mirror polished, still be able to have those skins gleam as they do in real life by tweaking the alpha channel?

[Dutch2]

I think this is a great improvement, but can I still use the oldstyle “ shinny waxed” 4k skins or are these being obsolete. 

 

[SIA_Sp00k]

Its all irrelevant if the P51 can still show up as a contrasting white beacon from 10000 feet above

Edited April 5, 2020 by TWC_Sp00k

[ICDP]

1 hour ago, TWC_Sp00k said:

Its all irrelevant if the P51 can still show up as a contrasting white beacon from 10000 feet above

 

If you haven't already you would be better posting a bug report on the forum specifically setup for reporting issues and bugs.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/89-technical-issues-and-bug-reports/

 

Back on topic.

 

I am looking at what can be done with the new lighting rather that what can't right now.  Previously getting a clean looking camouflaged skin with some realistic reflections was impossible without the "wet look".

 

Here are some G14 screens showing how the alpha affects new reflections and lighting affects on a camouflaged skin.  I have increased the alpha channel to levels that are pretty high.  In sim when you move the camera position the reflections and lighting look much improved on this particular skin.

 

Current Il-2.  The wing is far too glossy and wet.

 

Now the new WiP Lighting.  The same skin now shows a much more realistic look.

 

Old

 

New

 

Old

 

New

Edited April 5, 2020 by ICDP

[Oyster_KAI]

I'm wondering how is Deferred Shading influence in cockpit and navigation lights.

[Lusekofte]

This might be off topic. Would planes at distance shine less? 
 

[Raptorattacker]

19 hours ago, ICDP said:

I will test some skins from the more active skinners here for a before and after.

Now that WOULD be interesting! The thing is with the 'new' process there is FAR more scope for realism. By a country mile, in fact!

Those who are griping about the loss of the mirror-effect, especially for post-war 'concourse' aircraft will surely be able to achieve SOMETHING like that by cranking the Alpha above and beyond, no?

That said, it IS a WW2 sim after all and the onus for development has got to be on authenticity and so there would be a lot less hassle to incorporate 'genuine'-looking custom (and default) skins (of which there are FAR more, of that there's no doubt) than the creators of post-war renovated or 'hangar fresh' skins of the same machines (and I myself have done a few 'from the factory to the squadron' paintjobs) to be lumbered with having to boost their Alphas to regain the polish they are after? Does that make sense?...

Martin, could you test if it would be possible for these folk to still get their desired 'high-polish' effect, should they so desire please, just to lay their minds to rest?

Personally I'm a massive fan of 'the dirtier the better' but that just applies to not only my skins but my life in general as well (ask our household)!! 

Thanks

Rap

Edited April 5, 2020 by Raptorattacker

[[Pb]Bones18]

I'm assuming they aren't using PBR rendering yet correct?

[Bearcat]

20 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

If the skinner desires a post war polished metal finish will that still be possible as well? Can the alpha (or another) layer be tweaked to give the polished/wet look? Not a skinner, per se, but curious.

 

I was wondering the same thing. I actually like both looks and think that both were used during the war. I have a picture of a aircrewman polishing the side of a 332nd P-51 and his reflection was clearly visible... liken mirrored surface. Inhope that both can be achieved.

[Raptorattacker]

20 minutes ago, Bearcat said:

I have a picture of a aircrewman polishing the side of a 332nd P-51 and his reflection was clearly visible...

I bet it wasn't when the plane got back (if it did, that is)! They all used to clean the planes to give the slightest advantage they could in speed/reduced resistance. There's some late 109's that had been cleaned SO much that the paint (of which they were becoming short) was almost worn off!!

[Rjel]

9 minutes ago, Raptorattacker said:

I bet it wasn't when the plane got back (if it did, that is)! They all used to clean the planes to give the slightest advantage they could in speed/reduced resistance. There's some late 109's that had been cleaned SO much that the paint (of which they were becoming short) was almost worn off!!

Unless the airfield was muddy, why wouldn't it be? Perhaps some more exhaust stains and some blowback from fluids, but it wouldn't be filthy either. At most there might be some bug juice on it but the plane wouldn't be tarnished from a flight or two after cleaning.

[szelljr]

...planes in war .

 

 

 

...planes in air shows...(boahh)

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by szelljr

[ICDP]

39 minutes ago, Bearcat said:

 

I was wondering the same thing. I actually like both looks and think that both were used during the war. I have a picture of a aircrewman polishing the side of a 332nd P-51 and his reflection was clearly visible... liken mirrored surface. Inhope that both can be achieved.

 

This one?

 

The majority I have seen after a quick Google show no mirrored reflection.  I hope we can get some adjustments for a more compromised look but if it is either or, then the newer one is definitely more indicative for wartime era planes.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by ICDP

[LizLemon]

Do all the planes have the same settings for reflections and specular now or is it still different from plane to plane?

[smink1701]

Meh.

 

I really wish they would concentrate on the important stuff for a flight simulator like simulating flight ... better AI and FMs.  I think the dev team wants to show they are constantly improving the game without tackling the hard / expensive stuff.  IMHO.  

[Danziger]

9 minutes ago, smink1701 said:

Meh.

 

I really wish they would concentrate on the important stuff for a flight simulator like simulating flight ... better AI and FMs.  I think the dev team wants to show they are constantly improving the game without tackling the hard / expensive stuff.  IMHO.  

Gotta bring in the bucks to be able to budget for the expensive stuff.

[smink1701]

I have purchased about everything that's flight related but playing less and less because after 5 minutes I get bored and frustrated with AI and many of the FMs.  I'm afraid Normandy may be the end of the line since I don't see them doing the Pacific and after getting a few more planes like Hurricane and p51B, that's everything I need.  

[G_Schwarz]

TBH i like both the new and old and wish it can be implemented, on p51 am not sure but i think most of it wasn't fully painted like german fighters so it will be more shainey and mirror like.

 

can it be implemented on each aircraft, like (German no shaine), (US with shaine) ?

 

thank you for the pictures 

[ICDP]

1 hour ago, smink1701 said:

Meh.

 

I really wish they would concentrate on the important stuff for a flight simulator like simulating flight ... better AI and FMs.  I think the dev team wants to show they are constantly improving the game without tackling the hard / expensive stuff.  IMHO.  

 

Do you genuinely think a graphic programmer would be of any help programming AI or FM improvements?  It's like asking a factory worker to try their hand at surgery.

Edited April 5, 2020 by ICDP

[ShamrockOneFive]

Thanks for sharing this ICDP. It's good to have a look at side by side comparisons.

 

Looks very convincing with the new effects!