No check six for VR players

[PommyB]

I have VR and don't want to go back to TrackIR.

Can VR players have six view please?

[Jaegermeister]

You can look behind you if you are flexible enough.... kind of like real life. It does stretch the back and neck nicely.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Jaegermeister

[=RS=GiantPLANK]

probably best in the VR section.

 

Jus fly planes with a mirror!

[HunDread]

I use a swivel chair. Works good.

[Goffik]

27 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

You can look behind you if you are flexible enough.... kind of like real life.

 

Very true, but if you happen to have neck issues like I do, turning around that far is both difficult and sometimes painful. The problem is that a "check six" feature which moves the view without any physical movement is exactly the kind of thing which can bring on VR sickness in some people.

[AVX0]

No native support from IL-2 now, you can check this method from lefuneste:

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by AVX0

[WheelwrightPL]

28 minutes ago, GiantCorn said:

probably best in the VR section.

 

Just fly planes with a mirror!

 

Good advice: because of visibility issues VR actually rekindled my interest in US planes with rear mirrors such as P-38 and P-39.

Also: it is a new learning experience to properly take advantage of a rearview mirror, and learning new things is what keeps the game interesting and fresh.

[dburne]

1 hour ago, HunDread said:

I use a swivel chair. Works good.

 

Same here.

Along with good situational awareness.

[40plus]

Instead of making VR experience less realistic, why not make the other interfaces more realistic by limiting the max rotation angle and speed?

 

Just sayn

[Dirt_Merchant]

Be in shape and maintain flexibility for a start. 

 

Second use 3dmigoto.

 

Third you can assign snap views in the steamVR controls.

1 minute ago, pfrances said:

Instead of making VR experience less realistic, why not make the other interfaces more realistic by limiting the max rotation angle and speed?

 

Just sayn

 

This is a can of worms. Some people are more flexible than others, some have shorter necks and all kinda other things - no good way to account for this.

[40plus]

2 minutes ago, [_FLAPS_]Dirt_Merchant said:

Be in shape and maintain flexibility for a start. 

 

Second use 3dmigoto.

 

Third you can assign snap views in the steamVR controls.

 

This is a can of worms. Some people are more flexible than others, some have shorter necks and all kinda other things - no good way to account for this.

Agreed but surely no one is an owl ........ like so many trackIR players appear to be. No one can tun their head 180 degrees in a fraction of second then snap back forward with no issues.

 

Also, when I do a quick turn of my torso and neck in VR to check six, my stick moves and the plane follows.....quick motions of the pilot view could be mimicked in game with the plane jostling in kind.

 

It was hard to check your 6 in real life and it should be hard in game.

[Dirt_Merchant]

I totally agree with you in spirit - I just don't yet see any workable solutions to enforce this:/

[Talisman]

Look at left wing trailing edge, click 'VR normal view' key setting (centre VR view), then look over right shoulder and you can check your 6 easy just like with TIR like owl.  Simples.

 

Good luck.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[HunDread]

1 hour ago, pfrances said:

Instead of making VR experience less realistic, why not make the other interfaces more realistic by limiting the max rotation angle and speed?

 

Just sayn

 

Probably you already sent a few people to buy torches and pitchforks with this sentence alone (if they have time between two scientific posts about historical accuracy and immersion) 

[VR-DriftaholiC]

Real problem is we can't look out of the corner of our eyes yet due to limited headset FOV as FOV increases this will be easier. Maybe a temporary solution for the devs to implement would be the opposite of the VR zoom function where a button increases the FOV in a negative zoom fashion. This will move where we are trying to see behind us more in the center and let us check six in a fashion closer to reality. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by driftaholic

[J5_HellCat_]

It takes a little work to set these up but once you do it's a game changer and now I can never go back. and the more I fly the better it gets.

To bind these two mods to my stick I use Joytokey It's a free program

 

How to add rotation angle to check your six in VR

This allows me to be able to see behind me. You can set it from 45-90 Degrees  I set it to 90 to have the same feature that I had with TrackIR, but that's personal taste

 

Lefuneste's 3DMigoto mod 

This mod allows you to remove the prop disc, make the gunsight more visible, add increased zoom capability. 

 Use  JoyToKey  to setup your controls for zoom.

This mod is great. You can play online with it just fine. 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Or use a Pimax and rotate your eyeballs.

[Goffik]

20 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Look at left wing trailing edge, click 'VR normal view' key setting (centre VR view), then look over right shoulder and you can check your 6 easy just like with TIR like owl.  Simples.

 

That would be about the slowest and most clunky method of checking your six possible, and in no way "just like TIR".

 

The thing that amuses me is that people always seem to be moaning about TIR owls, yet when someone asks for a similar ability for VR it gets shot down pretty quick. This is despite the fact that it would genuinely help those incapable of physically turning that far, something which is not an issue for TIR or non-TIR/VR players. Is it the TIR users that don't like this idea or what? ?

Edited March 6, 2020 by Goffik

[Drano]

21 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Look at left wing trailing edge, click 'VR normal view' key setting (centre VR view), then look over right shoulder and you can check your 6 easy just like with TIR like owl.  Simples.

 

Good luck.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

The problem with this is you have to look away from the target and then look back. Not very intuitive, especially in scissors fight. Spotting at all is hard enough as it is without actually looking away from the guy! But as it's the only way I can do it with a Rift S and it's relatively narrow FOV, that's how I have it set up too. Not the best. I started a thread in the devs suggestion forum about simply enabling the hat views in combination with VR in order to expand FOV. Super easy, quick and intuitive (at least for those of us that pre-date TIR). All these other third party solutions are way too crazy. There's just no need for it. Make it something available in game and the problem is solved for all that need it. Clearly I'm not the only one having this issue. Really loving the game so far but the lack of ability to easily look around in a combat game in VR is a killer.

[SCG_motoadve]

I know is a disadvantage but the way to check 6 in VR is very realistic.

In the real plane you are strapped in, but have more FOV,  I have tried checking 6 many times on the real plane thinking of how it compares to VR, and its pretty much the same.

VR you can have a swivel chair , so that compensates for less FOV.

 

I would not mind a 6 snap view , neck hurts after a lot of dog fighting.

But can also live without it.

[69th_Bazzer]

You're not the only one having this issue, but I don't know that the solution you want is realistic. For me, I never experienced any 'VR sickness' until I made a snap view button and tried it for 5 minutes. Never again.

[Talisman]

2 hours ago, Goffik said:

 

That would be about the slowest and most clunky method of checking your six possible, and in no way "just like TIR".

 

The thing that amuses me is that people always seem to be moaning about TIR owls, yet when someone asks for a similar ability for VR it gets shot down pretty quick. This is despite the fact that it would genuinely help those incapable of physically turning that far, something which is not an issue for TIR or non-TIR/VR players. Is it the TIR users that don't like this idea or what? ?

Practise and you can get real quick and it becomes second nature.  It works.  Adapt and overcome.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Alonzo]

7 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Or use a Pimax and rotate your eyeballs.

 

With the 'normal' FOV on Pimax, how would you say it compares to the Migoto +20 degrees rotation? That's what I'm using right now on my Rift S, but eyeball rotation to check six is a primary reason I'm thinking about Artisan. With Rift S + neck crane + Migoto 20 degrees I'm seeing 180 behind me but it's quite a bit of effort to get round that far.

 

4 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

I know is a disadvantage but the way to check 6 in VR is very realistic.

In the real plane you are strapped in, but have more FOV,  I have tried checking 6 many times on the real plane thinking of how it compares to VR, and its pretty much the same.

VR you can have a swivel chair , so that compensates for less FOV.

 

My rig is a fixed chair, no rotation, but at least I'm not strapped to the chair or a chute. Unfortunately I don't have many "grab handles" in the cockpit, well none unless you count the chair arms. I know some folks with various styles of replica cockpit like the fact that you can push on the frame to lever yourself around. I think WAF would decrease if I built more cockpit stuff onto the rig, though...

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

On 3/5/2020 at 1:26 PM, pfrances said:

Instead of making VR experience less realistic, why not make the other interfaces more realistic by limiting the max rotation angle and speed?

 

Just sayn

 

My toy has advantages and disadvantages compared to their toy.  I want ALL the advantages and they spent less money on their toy, so screw 'em!  

 

Just sayin'   

[40plus]

54 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

My toy has advantages and disadvantages compared to their toy.  I want ALL the advantages and they spent less money on their toy, so screw 'em!  

 

Just sayin'   

Well if you want to be a child about it, sure.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

10 hours ago, pfrances said:

Well if you want to be a child about it, sure.

 

TBH, having realistic rearward look limits would probably prevent the Trackir from getting hung up at 180 degrees when looking backward.  If I didn't slow my head turn rate and self-restrict the settings to not go full 180, I'd probably have slipped disks in my neck "flicking" the head piece to force the thing to look in the direction I need.  

IMO it would only aid situational awareness, so I'm all for it.  

[C6_lefuneste]

18 hours ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

You're not the only one having this issue, but I don't know that the solution you want is realistic. For me, I never experienced any 'VR sickness' until I made a snap view button and tried it for 5 minutes. Never again.

The "recenter" trick made me sick, bit not using driver4VR and OV advanced settings with 45°. The key is to use it only when you have turn your head at max. and can not look back more.

[Drano]

The thing is--it's an air combat game. You HAVE to be able to look around. That's just a basic part of it that's common to all of them. Currently, if I was using a mouse for views, which I'm not and can't imagine there are more than a few players that are, I could look all around easily. Hat switches? Same thing. Enter TIR and this discussion is like history repeating itself when that happened. The peeps that couldn't afford it thought it was some unfair advantage. It really wasn't. You could still look around just as you could with hats, it was just a bit more intuitive. Realistic? I get a kick out of these guys. NOTHING about TIR views is REALISTIC and I'd bet the vast majority of players here are using it now. It's the way it's done basically these days. Might want to watch some recent IL-2 vids. Pretty much looks like every one is using TIR. I used it for years even before I could afford it building my own tracker so I know what it's all about. In TIR you still HAVE to be looking at the monitor. So no one is craning their neck more than a few degrees. So there's your realism! This isn't a problem for them so it isn't a problem. It's THEY that have an unfair advantage and that's where this pushback comes from just as it did long ago when TIR was new from the hat users. The difference is then no one had their view restricted in any way. This is not the same. All I'm asking for is to level the field. Not forcing anything on anyone but needs to be an option for those that need it. Don't want to use it? Good for you then don't! 

 

VR is just the next gen in seeing the world but they're not built for flight sims. They're built for other games where you're running and jumping around in a virtual world. There isn't a way to tweak the tracking of any HMD like you can with TIR where it would work sitting down. And it's a problem for players trying to play the game. VR currently isn't the be all end all advantage. The resolution and spotting leaves much to be desired vs that of a monitor and people complain about that all the time! Seeing anything at a distance is certainly no advantage in VR and there are multiple threads about it. Things do look a lot cooler especially up close. All said there's zero chance of going back to a monitor now even if it was 1000fps.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Trackir player:  Sits in real life first-person view looking at a 2D representation of in-game first-person view which he basically controls from a third-person perspective, all the while trying to keep situational awareness of a 3D simulated environment.  Somehow manages to keep the damned plane from tipping right over into the ground during anything other than basic maneuvering.  

 

VR player: First-person view is first-person view but peripheral vision is lacking.  Thinks it being that close to real is a disadvantage. 

 

The only thing I'll concede is VR is worse for people with neck problems.  

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

19 hours ago, Alonzo said:

 

With the 'normal' FOV on Pimax, how would you say it compares to the Migoto +20 degrees rotation? That's what I'm using right now on my Rift S, but eyeball rotation to check six is a primary reason I'm thinking about Artisan. With Rift S + neck crane + Migoto 20 degrees I'm seeing 180 behind me but it's quite a bit of effort to get round that far.

 

 

My rig is a fixed chair, no rotation, but at least I'm not strapped to the chair or a chute. Unfortunately I don't have many "grab handles" in the cockpit, well none unless you count the chair arms. I know some folks with various styles of replica cockpit like the fact that you can push on the frame to lever yourself around. I think WAF would decrease if I built more cockpit stuff onto the rig, though...

I think it's easy with the Pimax. I had regularly gotten neck issues from playing VR before I got the Pimax headset - ever since then, my neck has been loyal. There's a direct correlation - it's just that the game requires peculiar features of an HMD. I like to use large FOV, which is possible since the native Pimax support has been added. But normal FOV is enough as well and performs much better too (can easily ramp up supersampling far beyond good spotting). It is true that the difference is negligible between these modes, and the bigger one increases only immersion. It's 170° vs 200°. The 170° translates to 150° horizontal and is just enough to see something at your six when turning. It's a case of enough vs. not enough.

I would have kept the Index if it would be enough and if it had less glare. Its picture is softer than the 5K+. 

 

I must notify you though that the Artisan's production is on hold as far as I know and they are ramping up production on 8K+ and 8KX right now. The supply chains were hit due to Corona Virus and as a result they as well had to sacrifice. So, I would discourage you from considering the Artisan at the current stage of things. But I still recommend Pimax. And may I remind you, you have such a wonderful computer - it deserves an 8KX or at least 8K+ to be honest. That's top of the line and in sync with what your computer could properly propel.

 

You will understand once you have experienced it. You can quote me on that..

 

It's a good analogy: https://youtu.be/EJLT9cQZDXw

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[PommyB]

Thanks for replies.

I have "moved up" from HiTech's Aces High, which I played for about 15 years, but they seem to want go more "arcade" than "sim" and I was looking for a more realistic experience.

So I guess I cant complain that my FOV is like a WW2 pilot wearing goggles, though they were younger than me and could turn their heads more.

HiTech have always combined hat switch with VR which works wonderfully well. As good as Track IR but way more immersive. I thought VR would put TrackIR out of business.

I will persist with IL2, but I keep getting killed by invisible enemies just like the real thing. I guess you have to be careful what you wish for.

[xXThumperXx]

I have to say I would really like a snap view option for VR. I have a bad back from a service related injury and fly in a fixed seat quasi sim pit. I have to really crank to try and look over my shoulder, unfortunately for me the enemy always seems to know I am mostly blind from behind lol. I would say almost every death for me in the past week on MP has been from someone sneaking up on me form behind. I use to use track IR and one of the first issues I noticed going to VR (Rift S) was now I was limited by my own range of motion,  which kind of sucked  but the overall experience of VR was amazing. Having flown on both systems I would say using track IR makes it easier to track targets and keep up with whats going on around you, at least for me. That being said would it really be that bad to give VR a rear snap view?   

[Alonzo]

4 hours ago, xXThumperXx said:

I have to say I would really like a snap view option for VR. I have a bad back from a service related injury and fly in a fixed seat quasi sim pit. I have to really crank to try and look over my shoulder, unfortunately for me the enemy always seems to know I am mostly blind from behind lol.

 

I'm in the same boat. If you want a few extra degrees motion, Lefuneste's excellent mod allows you to crank an extra 15-20 degrees by holding a keyboard shortcut, you can then use joy2key or autohotkey or another tool to map that onto your joystick. I have a POV hat that does 22 degrees left/right, gentle zoom and Lefuneste's mega-zoom. I find it essential. (More than 22 degrees = lots of artifacts, and a chance the game doesn't render a bad guy so you're not actually checking six!).

 

 

[C6_lefuneste]

38 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

I'm in the same boat. If you want a few extra degrees motion, Lefuneste's excellent mod allows you to crank an extra 15-20 degrees by holding a keyboard shortcut, you can then use joy2key or autohotkey or another tool to map that onto your joystick. I have a POV hat that does 22 degrees left/right, gentle zoom and Lefuneste's mega-zoom. I find it essential. (More than 22 degrees = lots of artifacts, and a chance the game doesn't render a bad guy so you're not actually checking six!).

 

Did you try that ?

I found it far far better than my mod rotation.

[SCG_motoadve]

Will this work with Windows Mixed Reality headsets like the HP Reverb?

[VR-DriftaholiC]

Lean left, look behind to the right, roll plane almost 90 and pull back a little. Six checked. Do it both ways if you're paranoid. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by driftaholic

[C6_lefuneste]

1 hour ago, driftaholic said:

Lean left, look behind to the right, roll plane almost 90 and pull back a little. Six checked. Do it both ways if you're paranoid. 

Do that in a furball, with some guys chasing you...

9 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Will this work with Windows Mixed Reality headsets like the HP Reverb?

That's 100%  steamVR. Did WMR  use steamVR ?

Edited March 21, 2020 by c6_lefuneste

[VR-DriftaholiC]

Just adds to the immersion, this is why modern fighters have mirrors.

[dburne]

1 hour ago, driftaholic said:

Just adds to the immersion, this is why modern fighters have mirrors.