Curious about fw190D and why a 30mm wasnt used in spinner

[Sublime]

Was it because it was supposed to be a stopgap?

Was the change to a inline versus radial the reason?  It seems that props begging for a 30mm motorkanone.

Imagine the upgrade in firepower to..

Probably seems a dumb question to many but please just humor me..

Frankly I dont thi k the extra weight would be an issue with at least MW50 variants.  Itd be more devatstating against bombers and wouldnt hurt at all against fighters anyways.

I just.. it seems odd.

To be fair the current armament is enough to shred anything in game. Its not the most heavily armed but its my favorite armament plus airframe. 2 20s abd 2 .50s on a near centerline is near perfect and will down anything easily.  Further it has a decent ammo load.

Even when the 20mm is gone you have enough 12.7 to really bother fighters.

Bonus - why only a counter for the mg151m would it have killed them to add the 13mm ammo too

Edited March 4, 2020 by Sublime

[RedKestrel]

28 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Was it because it was supposed to be a stopgap?

Was the change to a inline versus radial the reason?  It seems that props begging for a 30mm motorkanone.

Imagine the upgrade in firepower to..

Probably seems a dumb question to many but please just humor me..

Frankly I dont thi k the extra weight would be an issue with at least MW50 variants.  Itd be more devatstating against bombers and wouldnt hurt at all against fighters anyways.

I just.. it seems odd.

To be fair the current armament is enough to shred anything in game. Its not the most heavily armed but its my favorite armament plus airframe. 2 20s abd 2 .50s on a near centerline is near perfect and will down anything easily.  Further it has a decent ammo load.

Even when the 20mm is gone you have enough 12.7 to really bother fighters.

Bonus - why only a counter for the mg151m would it have killed them to add the 13mm ammo too

Mounting a cannon through the engine requires a specific configuration, and as far as I can tell its kind of a pain to get it right.

Unless they were going to delete some other weapons, the extra weight of the gun and ammo would reduce the plane's climb and acceleration.

So if your armament is already enough to shred anything you come across, why add more weight just to blow your enemy into smaller pieces?

[AndyJWest]

According to Wikipedia (not the best source), the Fw 190 D-12 was fitted with a 30 mm Motorkanone, though only three were built, since this was  in 1945.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Focke-Wulf_Fw_190_variants#Fw_190_D-12

[69th_Bazzer]

10 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

According to Wikipedia (not the best source), the Fw 190 D-12 was fitted with a 30 mm Motorkanone, though only three were built, since this was  in 1945.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Focke-Wulf_Fw_190_variants#Fw_190_D-12

 3 were built you say? Shhhhh! Blue pilots are going to show up any second complaining they don't have unlimited numbers of these on MP servers.

[AndyJWest]

19 hours ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

 3 were built you say? Shhhhh! Blue pilots are going to show up any second complaining they don't have unlimited numbers of these on MP servers.

 

Let them have them, but only on the condition that they have historically-accurate fuel loads. Empty tanks, and an IOU from Albert Speer. ?

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by AndyJWest
typo

[Hanu]

All is Fair in Love and War, except Dora with motorkanone would have been too good. They tested it in couple of  D-12's but then stashed those not to be found like the Ark of the Covenant.

[Bremspropeller]

The Jumo 213A couldn't do it.

The D-12 and D-13 had a Jumo 213F.

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, Hanu said:

All is Fair in Love and War, except Dora with motorkanone would have been too good. They tested it in couple of  D-12's but then stashed those not to be found like the Ark of the Covenant.

Could only be piloted by top men.

Top.

Men.

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

I have a quick question. Why do you call the MG131 cartridge "50s" or "12.7"?

 

These are not .50BMG (12.7x99mm) guns. They are basically cannons; projectile with fuse and all. The .50BMG is basically just a gigantic upscaled 30-06 rifle cartridge. 

 

You're not the first person I've heard say this. I've heard people in discord say stuff like "I'm out of 20mm, only have 50 cals left."

[Yogiflight]

3 minutes ago, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

I have a quick question. Why do you call the MG131 cartridge "50s" or "12.7"?

 

These are not .50BMG (12.7x99mm) guns. They are basically cannons; projectile with fuse and all. The .50BMG is basically just a gigantic upscaled 30-06 rifle cartridge. 

 

You're not the first person I've heard say this. I've heard people in discord say stuff like "I'm out of 20mm, only have 50 cals left."

Especially as it is .51 cal.

[[=PzG=]-Southernbear]

18 minutes ago, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

I have a quick question. Why do you call the MG131 cartridge "50s" or "12.7"?

 

These are not .50BMG (12.7x99mm) guns. They are basically cannons; projectile with fuse and all. The .50BMG is basically just a gigantic upscaled 30-06 rifle cartridge. 

 

You're not the first person I've heard say this. I've heard people in discord say stuff like "I'm out of 20mm, only have 50 cals left."

While the definitions of what is and isn't a cannon has been rough (example when a Russian 23mm gun was re bored to 14.5mm it was still considered a Space "cannon") what is forcertain is that the modern American definition of a cannon is that it have explosive filler of some form and to be 15.46mm or over. This is the more modern example where as the Germans in WW2 if memory serves classified it as 15mm or over (which is why the MG 151 on the Bf 109 F2 is considered a cannon even though for me it feels like it hits like a glorified Machine gun...it depends on your preference) 

 

MG 131s aren't cannons, but like .50BMG and Russian 14.5 they hit like a ton of bricks conpared to say...7.92 or .303

[BlitzPig_EL]

And to add more confusion to this subject, the Japanese considered their .50 machine guns cannons, and their 20mm guns were basically upscaled Browning machine guns in form and function.

[=621=Samikatz]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

And to add more confusion to this subject, the Japanese considered their .50 machine guns cannons, and their 20mm guns were basically upscaled Browning machine guns in form and function.

 

If I'm not mistaken they also used proper explosive rounds in their... I think 13.2mm guns? It's a blurry line at times

[Yogiflight]

6 hours ago, [=PzG=]Southernbear said:

where as the Germans in WW2 if memory serves classified it as 15mm or over (which is why the MG 151 on the Bf 109 F2 is considered a cannon even though for me it feels like it hits like a glorified Machine gun...it depends on your preference) 

 

Why then they called it MG151 (Maschinengewehr/machine gun) and not MK151 (Maschinenkanone/machine cannon)?

To me it more looks like they saw guns up to 20mm as MGs, unlike today, where a 20mm clearly is a MK.

[danielprates]

All regional flavours aside, isn't the more or less accepted rule that anything above and including 20mm a cannon, because that is the caliber that where explosive shells become viable?

[Gretsch_Man]

15 hours ago, Sublime said:

Its not the most heavily armed but its my favorite armament plus airframe.

 

Bonus - why only a counter for the mg151m would it have killed them to add the 13mm ammo too

Same here. As far as prop planes go, the Dora 9 is my absolute favorite. I especially love the ingame engine sound.

 

I was also wondering why there is only a counter for the MG151.

 

Regarding your original question of why a 30mm wasn't used in the spinner, I think that was because the Dora was designed to mainly engage enemy fighters, for which the armament installed was quite sufficient. Adding a 30mm would have been overkill plus a decrease in performance.

[Sublime]

19 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

According to Wikipedia (not the best source), the Fw 190 D-12 was fitted with a 30 mm Motorkanone, though only three were built, since this was  in 1945.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Focke-Wulf_Fw_190_variants#Fw_190_D-12

Yes I noticed this as well. Apparently one was at LW fighter hq. (I noticed after my post)  which further made me confused. Because they did pull it off.

@RedKestreli agree - but a 30mm is more centerlined and Id delete the 13mms for it and youd think itd be very handy with a button for 2 20mms and for bombers a trigger for all 3.  But yes the current armament shreds of course.  However this didnt stop the LW from putting more armament than necessary on say early Fw190s

[Kurfurst]

8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Why then they called it MG151 (Maschinengewehr/machine gun) and not MK151 (Maschinenkanone/machine cannon)?

To me it more looks like they saw guns up to 20mm as MGs, unlike today, where a 20mm clearly is a MK.

 

You needed to be 2cm + to qualify as a machine cannon in the Wehrmacht.

 

The MG 151/20 started out as MG 151, as a high velocity 15mm heavy machine gun, they just changed the barrel and bored out (cut down) the original 15mm bottle-shaped cartridge to make the shorter 20mm version, hence the '/20'. The two were interchangeable if u changed the barrel. But the origin does not explains it, as even the MG FF was and "MG", and it started out as a 20 mm 'shell gun'. Other than that, every 2cm weapon I can think of had the MG designation. 

 

But, not everybody agree and there were minor revolts against this, as in one single D9 document I have seen it referred to as MK 151/20.

[Yogiflight]

3 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Other than that, every 2cm weapon I can think of had the MG designation. 

But for example you have the 2cm Flak. So there it is qualified as a cannon.

 

And for the aircrafts they were also titled as Motorkanone, Flügelwurzelkanone, Flügelkanone (engine cannon, wing root cannon, wing cannon). This is really odd.

[AndyJWest]

Why does it matter whether you call something an MG or a cannon? It won't affect the ballistics, or anything else...

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, Gretsch_Man said:

I was also wondering why there is only a counter for the MG151.

 

Supply shortages. Same deal with the Bf 109 K-4 cockpit. 

[Sublime]

18 hours ago, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

I have a quick question. Why do you call the MG131 cartridge "50s" or "12.7"?

 

These are not .50BMG (12.7x99mm) guns. They are basically cannons; projectile with fuse and all. The .50BMG is basically just a gigantic upscaled 30-06 rifle cartridge. 

 

You're not the first person I've heard say this. I've heard people in discord say stuff like "I'm out of 20mm, only have 50 cals left."

Use occams razor.  Im an ignorant American.  Therefore I say 50 cal and expect everyone to kowtow to my ridiculous math system and understand I get the difference vaguely but mean 13mm or 12.7 but in my head theyre also somehow the same.

No not all Americans are like me and thats an opinion but as a blanket statement this is why if you seriously got uptight and corrected someone over 7.62 versus 7.92 theyd probably roll their eyes and say same thing.

Im a bit more than a layman insofar Im very aware theres LOTS happening that is so far beyond me I dont even realize it.  So I too would think .50, 12.7, and 13mm would all be very similar.  Im sure Im quite wrong.  I know deep down they arent exactly the same,  but I dont really care if the damage is all the same if they model diff guns rate of fire and other issues to me the difference is that small as opposed to 20mm or 30mm.  Now if the game were to a point we had nothing left but issues like this Id agree and ask you to explain the differences; but first Id want them to look at whether HE on shells is working properly in game.

My .02 cents on what youve been experiencing. Americans like me.

7 hours ago, Gretsch_Man said:

Same here. As far as prop planes go, the Dora 9 is my absolute favorite. I especially love the ingame engine sound.

 

I was also wondering why there is only a counter for the MG151.

 

Regarding your original question of why a 30mm wasn't used in the spinner, I think that was because the Dora was designed to mainly engage enemy fighters, for which the armament installed was quite sufficient. Adding a 30mm would have been overkill plus a decrease in performance.

I thought so too. I thought it was perhaps it was intended as a stopgap, ended up being used mostly as a fighter and especially jet cover; and the A8s were still viable (or better 262s) for bombers.

I love the plane.  Like the tempest i feel almost invincible. Unlike the tempest im not constantly killing myself.

I guess it would have been overkill.  My thought would be a varianr for bombers.  Add mw50 for all those and use the 30mm too.  2 13mm, 2 20mm, 1 30mm would be formidable.

O/T but this sim changed my perception of the p51 so drastically Im genuinely curious how the Ta152 (which didnt impress me at all in 46) would fly.

I wondered about the ammo counters too. Luke answered.. shortages.

8 hours ago, danielprates said:

All regional flavours aside, isn't the more or less accepted rule that anything above and including 20mm a cannon, because that is the caliber that where explosive shells become viable?

In my book yes.

The 15mm in 109 F2s is odd to me and I never use it if possible.  I think it shoots a cannon round - dont recall but I think of it like what a BTR would have a super heavy mg.

[Tyberan]

Isn't the only surviving dora at Everett a D12? If so makes it super rare.

[[=PzG=]-Southernbear]

16 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Why then they called it MG151 (Maschinengewehr/machine gun) and not MK151 (Maschinenkanone/machine cannon)?

To me it more looks like they saw guns up to 20mm as MGs, unlike today, where a 20mm clearly is a MK.

Frankly...I don't actually know...the MG series for german aircraft guns are odd...for example the MG17 and MG 131 are Machine guns and the MG 151 (15mm) and the MGFF (early 20mm used on 109 Es and 190 A3s) AND the MG 151/20 (the german 20mm gun we all know and love) are all cannons...so...yeah confusing I know...

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Tyberan said:

Isn't the only surviving dora at Everett a D12? If so makes it super rare.

 

No, there's a D-9 from JG 3 on display at the USAF museum in Ohio, and there's a couple more being restored. 

 

The one in Everett is a D-13. 

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

13 hours ago, Sublime said:

My .02 cents on what youve been experiencing. Americans like me.

 

I'm a USA citizen too. Lol. I presume that is what you mean by "American". Hahaha. 

 

[Gretsch_Man]

16 hours ago, Sublime said:

O/T but this sim changed my perception of the p51 so drastically Im genuinely curious how the Ta152 (which didnt impress me at all in 46) would fly.

Ah, the Ta152! Now I surely would LOVE to have that one in IL-2.

 

Right now I'm reading an account by Willi Reschke, who actually flew the Ta152 in combat (and even made I think two kills while doing so). If you aren't familiar with his account, here are some of his impressions:

* Acceleration on take off was so great that once body was pressed against the seat back.

* The Ta lifted off after only a few hundred meters.

* Initial climb rate was enormous.

 

Oh, and the Ta had a 30mm in it's spinner, together with two MG151 in the wing roots.

[Sublime]

51 minutes ago, Gretsch_Man said:

Ah, the Ta152! Now I surely would LOVE to have that one in IL-2.

 

Right now I'm reading an account by Willi Reschke, who actually flew the Ta152 in combat (and even made I think two kills while doing so). If you aren't familiar with his account, here are some of his impressions:

* Acceleration on take off was so great that once body was pressed against the seat back.

* The Ta lifted off after only a few hundred meters.

* Initial climb rate was enormous.

 

Oh, and the Ta had a 30mm in it's spinner, together with two MG151 in the wing roots.

I was thinking of Reschkes account actually and remember him saying he felt he hadnt even begun to push the crafts limits

I wasnt impressed at all in 46.  I really wonder how shed fly im this

3 hours ago, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

 

I'm a USA citizen too. Lol. I presume that is what you mean by "American". Hahaha. 

 

Well.. yes..  but no...

I mean the fact you even differentiated the two puts you in a dangerous intellectual category for us

On 3/4/2020 at 6:53 PM, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

I have a quick question. Why do you call the MG131 cartridge "50s" or "12.7"?

 

These are not .50BMG (12.7x99mm) guns. They are basically cannons; projectile with fuse and all. The .50BMG is basically just a gigantic upscaled 30-06 rifle cartridge. 

 

You're not the first person I've heard say this. I've heard people in discord say stuff like "I'm out of 20mm, only have 50 cals left."

AND I truly had NOOO clue until rereading your post again that the German 13mm and Russian 12.7 have explosive fillers and fuzes. Wtf!?  I thought they were just bullets!

Edited March 6, 2020 by Sublime

[Voyager]

Didn't the US also use an explosive incendiary rounds in the 0.50 BMG too, towards the end of the war? 

[CrazyDuck]

On 3/4/2020 at 8:09 PM, Sublime said:

Was it because it was supposed to be a stopgap?

 

The answer is simple and non-philosophical: it was because Jumo 213A couldn't mount engine cannon (it was intended for bombers initially), but 213F could (and did). End of story.

[Sublime]

1 hour ago, CrazyDuck said:

 

The answer is simple and non-philosophical: it was because Jumo 213A couldn't mount engine cannon (it was intended for bombers initially), but 213F could (and did). End of story.

The answer for why it was intended as a stopgap?

Did those intentions continue after the stream of positive reports on the D9?

16 hours ago, Voyager said:

Didn't the US also use an explosive incendiary rounds in the 0.50 BMG too, towards the end of the war? 

I dont think so..?  We used incediary rounds...  

I wish we could alter our tracers.  This was used for say P51s solid tracers at the end of ammo

[sevenless]

On 3/6/2020 at 12:08 PM, Gretsch_Man said:

Ah, the Ta152! Now I surely would LOVE to have that one in IL-2.

 

Right now I'm reading an account by Willi Reschke, who actually flew the Ta152 in combat (and even made I think two kills while doing so). If you aren't familiar with his account, here are some of his impressions:

* Acceleration on take off was so great that once body was pressed against the seat back.

* The Ta lifted off after only a few hundred meters.

* Initial climb rate was enormous.

 

Oh, and the Ta had a 30mm in it's spinner, together with two MG151 in the wing roots.

 

The D-13 also had that. One original (ex JG 26) is left and on display in the US.

 

https://flyingheritage.org/Explore/The-Collection/Germany/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190-D-13-(Dora).aspx

[Sublime]

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

The D-13 also had that. One original (ex JG 26) is left and on display in the US.

 

https://flyingheritage.org/Explore/The-Collection/Germany/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190-D-13-(Dora).aspx

Jg26 was always my fav JG too. Probably because I read Caldwells excellent tome on them first at age 10.  And yes I didnt understand much of it.  But I read it and asked my USAF dad... reread it..  a few times. Good stuff.

Been to the USAF museuem.several.times. not since 2000 last. I think I missed the new FW190S

i did get to see because my dad was a lt col a partially uncrated zero JUST FOUND in a jungle circa 94.  I was 9 and decidedly unimpressed with the faded metal that wasnt put together.

coolest childhood thing was my dad snagging depenfents day flag rank passes for us on the Cv65.  Tons of photos from that day. Imagine age 11.. seeing planes cat and trap. F14 sonic boom

 a6s dropping cement bombs. Perhaps 50 or 100nm off norfolk in 96.  Pm if anyone wants pix sorry for the O/T

(also I thought the USAF museum had a trainer, and a FW in Jg3 colors I dont recall hearing they got the D13).

On 3/6/2020 at 6:08 AM, Gretsch_Man said:

Ah, the Ta152! Now I surely would LOVE to have that one in IL-2.

 

Right now I'm reading an account by Willi Reschke, who actually flew the Ta152 in combat (and even made I think two kills while doing so). If you aren't familiar with his account, here are some of his impressions:

* Acceleration on take off was so great that once body was pressed against the seat back.

* The Ta lifted off after only a few hundred meters.

* Initial climb rate was enormous.

 

Oh, and the Ta had a 30mm in it's spinner, together with two MG151 in the wing roots.

Reschkes account also states he felt " he hadnt even begun to test the abilities of the Ta"

This is what made me suspicious...

He is discussing dogfighting a tempest at treetop height.  3 on 2 and on Ta crashes immediately.  

Tempests excel low level.  The Ta was optimized for high altitude.  I mean was she really THAT good that he would even "feel strained" to to speak fighting a tempest??? Again Reschke very well may have been the better pilot - he killed his oppo - but his oppo clearly also wasnt just a crap pilot. Reshkes own account is of not a quick hit and run or boom and zoom but a tree top dogfight with several turns and moves before the tempest changes direction and he gets a snapshot.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Sublime

[=621=Samikatz]

If you go by what ace pilots say of their planes, every aircraft should be faster and out-turn every other aircraft. What matters is testing and data

[Bremspropeller]

I think you'll have to recognize that Reschke used to fly a plain-Jane A-8 before the Ta, so he naturally was pretty excited about an airplane that had more torque and a bigger prop (better climb and acceleration) and turned substantially better.

 

Whether the Ta was really *better* than it's opponentes or whether they were just surprised by the unknown capabilities of the aircraft (and hence no idea how to tactically counter it in a 1v1 or 2v2) is up to discussion.

[CUJO_1970]

German pilots in the West flying FW190A learned very early that two 20mm and two mg were more than enough against any Allied aircraft, even for bombers. This was well before the D-9 ever showed up with 2 MG151 and two heavy hitting 13mm all placed close to the center-line. A rookie pilot with JG26 asked why his FW190A didn't have the outer guns installed, he was told "you don't need them".

 

An MG151/20mm cannon round hitting whatever aircraft you are sitting in is very bad news. Especially if it's a mine round. I've read so many accounts of what these rounds do to humans after they penetrate a B-17 or B-24 air frame - blowing arms and legs off, decapitating etc. It's awful. It was heavy enough armament for any Allied fighter, including the P-47.

 

The 30mm MK-108 is another level of destruction altogether. A JG/7 pilot said aircraft hit by it would "burst like a balloon".

 

As for the Ta-152...it was an extreme altitude fighter, built for performance at altitudes even P-47s had trouble breathing. Up there they were obscenely fast and the long glider-like wings meant they were highly maneuverable in the thinner air up there. They were not optimized for dogfights on the deck (slow on the deck by late-war standards), yet the war situation placed the small number of them available there anyway. Ironically the huge wing made the aircraft a superb turner on the deck.

 

 

 

 

[Sublime]

11 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

I think you'll have to recognize that Reschke used to fly a plain-Jane A-8 before the Ta, so he naturally was pretty excited about an airplane that had more torque and a bigger prop (better climb and acceleration) and turned substantially better.

 

Whether the Ta was really *better* than it's opponentes or whether they were just surprised by the unknown capabilities of the aircraft (and hence no idea how to tactically counter it in a 1v1 or 2v2) is up to discussion.

I can respect this though.  This is the attitude youd want your pilots to have. Like in "The Right Stuff" when hes asked whose the best pilot hes ever seen : "me"

[MiloMorai]

4 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

German pilots in the West flying FW190A learned very early that two 20mm and two mg were more than enough against any Allied aircraft, even for bombers. This was well before the D-9 ever showed up with 2 MG151 and two heavy hitting 13mm all placed close to the center-line. A rookie pilot with JG26 asked why his FW190A didn't have the outer guns installed, he was told "you don't need them".

Now you have done it. Crumpp would be all over you for this false statement about removing the outer cannons.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Haven't seen Crump round these parts in some time now!

 

Edit: Looks like he bowed out of these forums early in 2017.

Edited March 10, 2020 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[ZachariasX]

26 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

Haven't seen Crump round these parts in some time now!

 

Edit: Looks like he bowed out of these forums early in 2017.

Let's say that he had considerable help for "bowing out" in a very assertive way after things got a bit out of hand again in a discussion.