Wake turbulence?

[Reggie_Mental]

Is wake turbulence modelled in the game?

 

I can never tell sometimes. In a turning dogfight I get a flutter which doesn't look like a tip stall or AOA stall

 

If it is I need to make sure I avoid it to improve my gunnery

[busdriver]

I've not found any wake turbulence in game. What's a "tip stall" versus an "AOA stall?"

[Jaegermeister]

It is modeled when you taxi

[RedKestrel]

I have heard it said that it is modeled in single player a little bit but not multiplayer as it was too hard on the networking. Nothing confirmed by the devs though. I think I may have noticed it in SP once in a while but it’s subtle and possibly my imagination.

[busdriver]

@RedKestrel you could be right, but I've not found any. And I've never seen any behavior that might be wake turbulence. But I confess that without force feedback, in game turbulence looks very odd to me. Which is a long winded was of saying, "if wake turbulence is modeled...I missed it."

[SCG_motoadve]

Is not modeled, RL wake turbulence will throw your aim off , moves your plane around in a different way than wind, wake turbulence your control inputs get very slow , sluggish almost unresponsive for a few seconds, can be very scary if low, and still quite surprising at higher altitudes.

 

Can imagine it can be quite hard to model it probably, maybe some day?

[Reggie_Mental]

14 hours ago, busdriver said:

What's a "tip stall" versus an "AOA stall?"

https://www.flitetest.com/articles/what-are-tip-stalls-how-do-they-form

 

A tip stall is an incomplete loss of lifting airflow over part of one wing or both, usually affecting ailerons. 

[Legioneod]

11 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Is not modeled, RL wake turbulence will throw your aim off , moves your plane around in a different way than wind, wake turbulence your control inputs get very slow , sluggish almost unresponsive for a few seconds, can be very scary if low, and still quite surprising at higher altitudes.

 

Can imagine it can be quite hard to model it probably, maybe some day?

I could have swore experiencing this in singleplayer. I remember getting on a enemies direct six and my aim was all over the place, I couldn't steady the aircraft at all.  I've never experienced anything like it in multiplayer though, but I'm almost certain it was modeled at one point in singleplayer.

 

It was subtle but definitely noticeable and a stark difference from multiplayer flying. Could be my imagination though, who knows.

[SCG_motoadve]

Just now, Legioneod said:

I could have swore experiencing this in singleplayer. I remember getting on a enemies direct six and my aim was all over the place, I couldn't steady the aircraft at all.  I've never experienced anything like it in multiplayer though, but I'm almost certain it was modeled at one point in singleplayer.

 

It was subtle but definitely noticeable and a stark difference from multiplayer flying. Could be my imagination though, who knows.

Maybe there were windy conditions? I have never experienced in the sim, but a few times in real airplanes.

[Legioneod]

Just now, SCG_motoadve said:

Maybe there were windy conditions? I have never experienced in the sim, but a few times in real airplanes.

Unlikely as it only occurred when on their direct six, I've never experienced it in any other situation.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I think ROF had it in single player.

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

No, wake turbulence is not modelled... prop wash is... not in multiplayer though..

It would be awesome to have though.. ITs game changing in DCS... 

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, Reggie_Mental said:

https://www.flitetest.com/articles/what-are-tip-stalls-how-do-they-form

 

A tip stall is an incomplete loss of lifting airflow over part of one wing or both, usually affecting ailerons. 

 

IOW you're simply describing the wingtip exceeding the critical AOA prior to other parts of the wing. I've just never seen anyone give it a name. We didn't use that term in the RL fighter community or at the airlines. No worries. 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

The other sim has wake turbulence, but it is a real resource hog. Slows missions to a crawl. So mostly recommended to be turned off for better performance. 

[Legioneod]

6 hours ago, [APAF]spartan85 said:

No, wake turbulence is not modelled... prop wash is... not in multiplayer though..

It would be awesome to have though.. ITs game changing in DCS... 

That's what I experienced then, I knew it was something that kept throwing my nose off and ruining my aim.

[JG7_X-Man]

What I would like to see in my rounds not fly through the guys propeller when I am on his six.

[busdriver]

19 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

wake turbulence your control inputs get very slow , sluggish almost unresponsive for a few seconds,

 

To clarify...your control inputs are NOT any slower...you still have the ability to rapidly slam the stick side to side and the ailerons will move exactly as they should, but the rotation of the wake vortex may simply be too much for the airplane to handle until you pass through it. That's why rather than trying to roll counter to the wake turbulence, it is easier to roll in the direction of the upset. 

 

20 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

can be very scary if low, and still quite surprising at higher altitudes.

 

I absolutely agree with this on both accounts. It can kick off the autopilot and make you say the F word when a wide-body does it to you in RVSM airspace. I called it flying through "used air."

[SCG_motoadve]

13 minutes ago, busdriver said:

To clarify...your control inputs are NOT any slower...you still have the ability to rapidly slam the stick side to side and the ailerons will move exactly as they should, but the rotation of the wake vortex may simply be too much for the airplane to handle until you pass through it. That's why rather than trying to roll counter to the wake turbulence, it is easier to roll in the direction of the upset. 

 

Agreed.

[AGVoodoo5]

Prop wash and wingtip vorticies"Wake Turbulence would really bring this game to life especially if it activates the simshaker(Telemetry output). I enjoy it in DCS. Finding and avoiding wake is a VERY real part of warbird flying. Very important. I've been rolled upside down and on my side a few times while chasing another P51 at high speed. Tigercats, Bearcats and Sea Furys are THE WORST!

[SCG_motoadve]

12 minutes ago, AGVoodoo5 said:

Prop wash and wingtip vorticies"Wake Turbulence would really bring this game to life especially if it activates the simshaker(Telemetry output). I enjoy it in DCS. Finding and avoiding wake is a VERY real part of warbird flying. Very important. I've been rolled upside down and on my side a few times while chasing another P51 at high speed. Tigercats, Bearcats and Sea Furys are THE WORST!

Agreed 100% avoiding wake turbulence in a fighter is a big part of flying and specially dogfighting that its missing in IL2.

In the sim you can cross the wake turbulence or even just sit at dead six of the enemy plane and you feel nothing.

I wonder how difficult will it be to model it, hope they can do it some day.

[Bremspropeller]

On 3/4/2020 at 3:11 AM, busdriver said:

What's a "tip stall" versus an "AOA stall?"

 

It's when you tip that hot waitress less than 20% - your dating chances will take a real plunge after that.

 

 

BTW: I read "Wake", so is PTO confirmed after all?

[kestrel79]

Are there any real pilot accounts of wake turbulence in any of the old books? I would imagine German fighters diving into formations of 100s of bombers there's be some turbulence diving on those formations.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm sure it was an issue then, but nothing like it would be today, given the much larger and faster aircraft these days.  Cessna 172 vs. 747 is not a pretty thought.

[ZachariasX]

On 3/5/2020 at 2:53 AM, busdriver said:

That's why rather than trying to roll counter to the wake turbulence, it is easier to roll in the direction of the upset. 

You do that? I mean, if you are in a Mustang, fine. But in a Cub or a Robin? They will go nose down hard if you roll them over and the stick pushing forward will stop your roll while being ob your back already. I souldn't want to fly inverted in neither of these aircraft, as good as they are.

 

What I've learned is full foot against the upset and leave the ailerons. The rudder will not only indice some roll against the upset (nice word) but it will also make you veer out of the vortex. The ailerons should be left for not exceeding max AoA on the wingtip. The vortex may well indice a significant angle there. Does that make sense?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

An-2 Wake Turbulence is strong at 1:30

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[busdriver]

22 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

You do that? I mean, if you are in a Mustang, fine. But in a Cub or a Robin?

 

Does a Citabria count? 

 

23 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

They will go nose down hard if you roll them over and the stick pushing forward will stop your roll while being ob your back already. I souldn't want to fly inverted in neither of these aircraft, as good as they are

 

I revert to my F-4 training...Unload For Control. So if this upset rolls me beyond 90 degrees I continue my roll "unloaded" all the way around to upright...no hesitation for inverted flying. AoA close to zero...no exceeding critical AoA on any surface.

 

28 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

What I've learned is full foot against the upset and leave the ailerons. The rudder will not only indice some roll against the upset (nice word) but it will also make you veer out of the vortex. The ailerons should be left for not exceeding max AoA on the wingtip.

 

I respect that.  We're going to fly the way we were trained. I might use that technique if the upset is less than 90 degrees. I was trained that way, along with bunting to light in the seat. Back in my high school Cessna 150 days of the early 70s I had an AF aero club instructor that was very good about giving me unique situations. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

 

Does a Citabria count? 

 

 

It counts for maximum cool points in my book.