Ramming SeaWolf

[HagarTheHorrible]

Don”t do it, he doesn’t like it.  He certainly doesn't like to be rammed from behind, but likes it even less, being rammed in the face, but worse still, is when two friendly players come together when chasing someones rear, all he does is moan and moan and moan, you'd almost think he enjoyed it.

 

I was wondering if, you’re a good pilot, you might be more susceptible to being rammed, although it has to be pointed out, it takes two to tango. If a fight is hard, then a player is more likely to push for any and every chance, if on the other hand a fight is perceived to be easier then a more relaxed attitude, less risky, will prevail.

 

To sum up, it’s your own fault for being too good.

Edited February 27, 2020 by HagarTheHorrible

[J2_Trupobaw]

"Ramming Seawolf" sure is a catchy title. I propose "The mission is a man" for tagline. 

[HagarTheHorrible]

I really am trying to avoid any innuendo, but it really is very hard ?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

It's a tough call.  Either abandon your line for a less advantageous one, allowing him to keep his.  Or hold to your line, and hope that he abandons his and you get to keep yours.

 

Another reason why dogfights are for suckers.  The closest an opponent should ever be allowed to pointing their nose at you should be a prop-hang.

[J2_Drookasi]

I have learned something those few years I am flying. If you are serious about your v-life never engage in a turning fight. If needed do it after you have wounded/damaged your opponent via a bounce. Get in fast, shoot, get out of there.

[Chill31]

42 minutes ago, J2_Drookasi said:

I have learned something those few years I am flying. If you are serious about your v-life never engage in a turning fight. If needed do it after you have wounded/damaged your opponent via a bounce. Get in fast, shoot, get out of there.

These are the same rules for protecting your real life!

[ZachariasX]

48 minutes ago, J2_Drookasi said:

Get in fast, shoot, get out of there.

And then you would have shot at home for cowardice and running from the enemy. Btw, I just got rammed the other day by a D.VII(F?) diving at me while doing circles besides SeaW0lf near Cappy. It's very simple. You pay chicken, you ask for it. In all other instances (like happened to me then), if you are the slower party, you're at the discretion of the faster party. You don't like it, don't fly.

 

And no, people certainly didn't value life much according to your standards back then when all they aimed for was taking life, and on average they don't do it today. Just check the news.

 

Another example about the value of you "v-life": According to Heinz Ewald, when he reported to Gerhard Barkhorn (Barkhorn being already a 100 victores ace) upon arrival to the squadron, Barhorn asked him four questions in quick succession:

 

"Are you able to fly?" - "Jawohl, Herr Hauptmann!"

"Are you able to shoot?" - "Jawohl, Herr Hapuptmann!"

"Are you able to maintain your position as wingman during aerial combat?" - "Jawohl, Herr Hauptmann!"

"Are you able to die?" - "Jawohl, Herr Hauptmann!"

 

Four correct answers and Ewald was good to go. Barkhorn was 24 years old at that time. Those skies were no place for sissies.

 

 

[J2_Drookasi]

I am not a combat pilot but I believe that they have something called 'Risk Assessment'. If a mission is too hairy and could turn to a suicide mission, they just don't do it, because fighter pilots are difficult to get and maintain. They are altering the parameters of the mission so that they increase the chances for success. As for getting up unprepared, yes they did it, and they were swelling the statistics of pilots that knew when not to get in a fight they could not certainly win.

 

Valuing ones v-life is a matter of how he gets the immersion he seeks for from the game. If someone is looking for quick fun he is perfectly welcome, I personally am in the game for MY entertainment and I am trying not to play my enemy's fight. I will engage on my own terms which I try to make hugely in favour of myself. My apologies enemies!

 

 

[ZachariasX]

22 minutes ago, J2_Drookasi said:

If a mission is too hairy and could turn to a suicide mission, they just don't do it, because fighter pilots are difficult to get and maintain.

They made tens of thousands of them. Death was the norm on the job. If you seek to protect your v-life, that's perfectly fine, as we are here for entertainment and everybody should play such that they have most fun.

 

But one shouldn't confuse your own survival instinct with the degrees of freedom available to aircrews back then. It really takes someone to to in where you cannot reasonably expect to come home from. And if you do, do it again next day.

[J2_Drookasi]

35 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

But one shouldn't confuse your own survival instinct with the degrees of freedom available to aircrews back then. It really takes someone to to in where you cannot reasonably expect to come home from. And if you do, do it again next day.

 I can really upvote this!

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

What if you want to protect your V-life but fly a Bristol as a pilot who does the objectives? Last night in the Thursday fly in there were some guys I'm sure that were trying their hardest to ram us in our Bristol's. 

[HagarTheHorrible]

5 minutes ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

 some guys I'm sure that were trying their hardest to ram us in our Bristol's. 

 

Oh !!!!!  The ironic innuendo, it really is just too much.

[Feathered_IV]

It is all to easy to get fixated on  pair of Bristols.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

Not allusive at all, Sure looked like it to us. 

[J2_Trupobaw]

16 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

They made tens of thousands of them. Death was the norm on the job. If you seek to protect your v-life, that's perfectly fine, as we are here for entertainment and everybody should play such that they have most fun.

 

But one shouldn't confuse your own survival instinct with the degrees of freedom available to aircrews back then. It really takes someone to to in where you cannot reasonably expect to come home from. And if you do, do it again next day.

That's RFC bias. British Army Corps indeed made tens of thousands expandable pilots and threw them away; other services were more cautious.  Germans, in particular, did not have *airframes* to throw away and had to use risk assesment.

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Germans, in particular, did not have *airframes* to throw away and had to use risk assesment.

You say Falkenhayn & Co. wouldn't have "thrown them away" if they could have afforded it? Those guys?

 

I'd much rather say that for a fancy reason, *some* pilots had a say that was heard beyond the Etappe. If there were pilots that would ever resemble even remotely to your typical MP gamer, then it's the dudes of Jasta 11 et. al.. In numbers by no means representative to your average expended pilot, they could make what made sense to them personally. Of course, they thought it being the best thing for the Fatherland as well. Maybe. Maybe not. I mean, it made it possible for the BE2 to be used up until 1917, because in most places they were unmolested and did their job. Even during Bloody April, the RFC did their job. Sure, they lost a lot of aircraft. But how many German soldiers down low were blown to bits due to precise artillery? Why shouldn't I afford losing a low ranking officer flying a Quirk, but losing a low ranking officer manning artillery is inconsequencial?

[J2_Trupobaw]

Falkenhayn was out of picture by the time Jastas happened. Both Ludendorff and von Hoepner were running tight ships and carefully managing few resources they had. What they had was few planes, but excellent pool of highly trained officers and NCOs to draw pilots from. "Average German pilot" had to be an exceptional veteran on the ground (or merely an academy-trained officer with combat experience) to even be trusted with a plane. Then, he had to shine again as two-seater pilot to be allowed into Jagdschule. By the time he reached a Jasta he was a veteran and a survivor, with combat experience on the ground and in the air. British logistical situation was total opposite; they had plenty of planes but no large pool of military academy graduates so they were filling the skies with warm bodies without expecting all of them to come back.

Edited February 29, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[Yours_truly_Ace]

As J2_Drookasi said; If you stay in the dogfight for too long you will either; be rammed by a wingman or foe, or shot down by wingman (friendly fire) or foe. 
Best is to not play their "game" and get in, hammer the bastard, then get out! If you have good energy you can gain some altitude, check your six and surroundings, if clear, go down for another burst. But always be moving. If you lock on your target and get tunnel vision you are most likely to crash into someone or get shot down by the guy at your six you never saw.

Edited March 10, 2020 by 127Tom

[ZachariasX]

On 2/29/2020 at 11:53 PM, J2_Trupobaw said:

Both Ludendorff and von Hoepner were running tight ships and carefully managing few resources they had. What they had was few planes, but excellent pool of highly trained officers and NCOs to draw pilots from.

I see your point, but in times where everyone was expended at leisure it is hard to believe that they were really concerned about flying NCO's when artllery NCO's were just items in the tick-list.

 

I find only one explanation for the wholly disproportionate "care" high command had toward their pilots (or aircraft, as you say). This is some of them having a hero staus with propagande leverage (especially for the pilots own causes) and what these pilots had high command do in essence was adjust tailor the whole fighter air force to their own personal liking, detailed in the moto "Shoot down aircraft, everything else is nonsense." That's the Jasta. Get the good ones together and let them fight at remotely acceptable odds, preferably on the defense. Same as in MP servers, it's the best way to build your streak. But scorers then and now don't really help you to "win the map" if you just let them have their way.

 

As for the Allied pilots, they never had that much of leverage. In some remarkable exceptions, some profilic pilots just took off on their own to go scoring and have a little bit of fun. Less so in the last year of the war. Command had an idea of what their airforce should do and that was it. On average pilots fielded were capable of performing their task, regardless of the fact whether they were highly accomplished NCO's before or not.

 

[J2_Trupobaw]

The relation of German high command with the fighter pilots was complex and changed over time, general theme was command being out of touch with realities of air combat and (a little after each major error) ceading policy making to pilots themselves (who in turn believed command to be complecent and prone to resting on laurels; see MvR alarmistic letters about D.V). 

The real issue was the morale of German soldiers in trenches in face of Entente strafing and directed artillery. It reached low point during battle of Somme, which made HQ finally approve Boelckes long-witheld request to form Jastas (see above). The Jastas did great job in reducing pressure on ground troops and restoring morale on the ground in late 1916, and were balancing Entente superiority ever since.

As of "shoot down aircraft, everything else is rubbish" motto, just like Albatros complains it should be taken in context of pilots relations with HQ . It was army protocol-acceptable way of saying "Ground troop generals should let Jasta pilots under their nominal command do their jobs, rather than hinder them by attempts at micromanagement". IIRC, that conflict ended with replacement of general who tried to dictate JG1 patrol hours and routes (as opposed to  telephone-based ground assisted interceptions MvR wanted) .

A simple summary would be, HQ thought in terms of pressure being taken off the troops on the ground  with limited resources they had and propaganda value of Jastas, while Jagdfliegern thought in terms of their combat efficiency as a tool for taking pressure off the troops.

Edited March 10, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[No.23_Gaylion]

Back to the OP, this SOB is always on my team when I go out on SW Ramming missions. Taking the fun out of the game!

[J2_Trupobaw]

8 minutes ago, US213_Talbot said:

Back to the OP, this SOB is always on my team when I go out on SW Ramming missions. Taking the fun out of the game!