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Spitfire Ground Handling?

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3 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Simple. Pivot turn the plane when it is standing, opening throttle and keep left wheel brake, full left rudder. Once you turned sufficiently, stop and let the plane come to rest.

 

I think the issue was that I was using the wheel brake axis only to realize there isnt a wheel brake axis. its all brakes together coupled with the rudder input to lock the wheel to the side you want to turn. 

I will have to try it out though as I havent had a chance. I might change my in game name to GroundLooper! 

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On 2/19/2020 at 2:11 PM, R3animate said:

1. It feels like it takes an excessive amount of throttle to get it rolling... this one seems to be a lot of planes.. way more throttle than I’d ever expect to get them rolling.

 

 

 

Real prop driven planes do not act this way. As soon as you let go of the brakes they start creeping forward, even at idle. This is on pavement mind you, I've never taxied a plane on grass. This is something I feel they have gotten wrong, especially when on paved surfaces.

 

 

Edited by Megalax

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3 hours ago, Hot_Rod said:

 

Very Cool!       👍

 

 

Rod

 

Found them,

 

The Spitfire taxing in,

 

and a few pics,

 

Me,

 

20120705183851.jpg

 

and a few other dangerdogz,

20120705184003.jpg

 

20120705184555.jpg

 

and with the pilot,

 

20120705185418.jpg

 

Was a good day, right place, right time!

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This was a problem I recall having fixed on my FSX install - there was a modded .dll for solving just that same problem (that there was too much ground friction)

 

Afterwards, things got more realistic, such that very few planes would not start creeping forward at idle power as soon as brakes are released.

 

 

BoS is well known to have an excessive amount of ground friction. It's like all tires are inflated to less than half the pressure they should take. I'm pretty sure a lot of the steering difficulties and the resulting ground loops is due to the simple fact that you need so much power to start rolling.

 

The spitfire we have seems to taxi more or less steadily at an uncanny 30%-ish throttle position.  It is almost uncontrollable if you make large power changes. Alas, these are a natural consequence of what it takes to start rolling.   You gotta start it off with as little power as possible, moving the throttle up in very careful increments, observing for movement at each small step as RPM settles in.

 

 

Once you "find the spot" with the throttle, you'll find taxiing gets a lot easier.   

 

 

 

But yes, this should indeed be considered a bug.  IRL, just releasing brakes (or very little throttle) would suffice to start moving on any civilized surface.

 

 

Any patch of ground that requires THIS much power to roll out from should have no right to call itself an airfield.

 

Edited by 19//Moach

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As for the real aircraft, you would not use much brakes. Brakes you only use for pivot turning and making a full stop from what is good walking speed.

 

These vintage planes do not really behave like you expect in a same way as cars from 1930 have a bit of a mind of their own once you get them to 30 mph or so.

 

That said, the fact that it takes too much power to start rolling in the sim is something we have to deal with, but in essence it also helps you. As soon as you have some power applied the rudder becomes effective. You control you aircraft with the rudder and you must get used to make quick, large inputs to keep her straight.

 

The second issue in the sim is that the plane really likes to make this tail swing on her own, something the real aircraft doesn‘t do in such a way. However if you over control her, she WILL ground loop though.

 

Use some power, work the rudder hard as it works even in the sim, despite the added quirks in the sim.

 

Using the brakes is a bad habit on the real aircraft and in the sim, they will give you further headache. Don‘t use them to steer your aircraft. Same as you do not use your brakes to keep your speed down in a 1930‘s car when going downhill. In both cases you will not have brakes anymore when you really need them.

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3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

The second issue in the sim is that the plane really likes to make this tail swing on her own, something the real aircraft doesn‘t do in such a way. However if you over control her, she WILL ground loop though.

 

You should hear me coming up with new swear-words over TS.

Full rudder and brakes in one direction and the airplane sometimes won't even consider following steering commands.

 

The 190 (TW unlocked) and Ju 88 are some of the worst offenders...

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Out of all the air-frames in this game The spitfire and ground handling is way over done . Seen so many many people online in servers crashing into players and ground looping .

Jump in any other air-frame and you just taxi so easy Yet the spitfire is just mind blogging  .

I cant see why there is such a huge difference to taxi the spitfire compared to any other air-frame in this game , its not that its full real for any other aircraft  here ground wise   .

The complaints have been going on for some time now . 

Edited by KoN_

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There are force acting on the ground which want turn the  plane in one direction or other, planes are designed to  counterreact  , but sometimes do not from various reasons,  and let it be compensated  during take off by pilot input and for example do not exist in the air or  let them be exploited by pilots  during combat maneuvering.

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25 minutes ago, KoN_ said:

Seen so many many people online in servers crashing into players and ground looping .

If they taxi the real Spit like "they" taxi her in the game, it will be a ground loop fest. That is no argument at all. What is really different between real aircraft and the sim, is that the real aircraft will stand on her nose if you hit the brakes like it is done in the game, this as opposed to the tail swing *if you were taxiing straight*.

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Its the only air-frame in game doing this . This is not a Full real sim on ground . Every other plane is easy too taxi and take off and land , why not the spitfire . As you can see its been going on for some time now . People are always bring up the ground loop in spitfire . 

 

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9 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

If they taxi the real Spit like "they" taxi her in the game, it will be a ground loop fest. That is no argument at all. What is really different between real aircraft and the sim, is that the real aircraft will stand on her nose if you hit the brakes like it is done in the game, this as opposed to the tail swing *if you were taxiing straight*.

 

I suspect that IL-2 modulates brakes to accommodate for the large numbers of pilots who have buttons for breaks rather than having an axis for adjustment. That other combat sim lets you get the full break power and brings it on gradually but that's also been problematic with a push button.

 

1 hour ago, KoN_ said:

Its the only air-frame in game doing this . This is not a Full real sim on ground . Every other plane is easy too taxi and take off and land , why not the spitfire . As you can see its been going on for some time now . People are always bring up the ground loop in spitfire . 

 

 

Blanket statements tend not to hold up very well. Though the Spitfire is amongst the most difficult and most likely to ground loop, the LaGG-3, Bf109 and the Bf110 have also proved to be difficult at times while still others seem less prone to ground looping while taxiing but prove difficult to get under control on takeoff.

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9 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I suspect that IL-2 modulates brakes to accommodate for the large numbers of pilots who have buttons for breaks rather than having an axis for adjustment.

 

It is also my impression that there was adjustments made to accommodate the most common peripherals. I think this would be a good decision.

 

But if someone learned to taxi the Spit without using the brakes, then things are much less of an issue. Yes, you just can‘t taxi the Spit in Daytona manner as you can the Mustang (after all, that one is the „Cadillac of the Sky“ for a reason ;)), but you wouldn‘t anyway. Planes from the thirties were NOT fitted wheel brakes at all as standard. This tell you how people were used to control aircraft.

 

My point was more that in terms of kinetics, the tilt on the nose comes much before the tail swing when hitting brakes while taxiing straight. If the brakes are slower to bite, the swing should be reduced equally.

 

So yes, I don‘t think the Spit in the sim should act as it does at times. But I also think there should be a minimal effort by the player to control the aircraft as he should. 

 

 

11 hours ago, KoN_ said:

Its the only air-frame in game doing this

Nah. Try Mig3, Ju88, etc.

 

11 hours ago, KoN_ said:

This is not a Full real sim on ground

Find me one that is. I mean one who features aircraft as main attraction.

 

11 hours ago, KoN_ said:

People are always bring up the ground loop in spitfire . 

People always bring up things that are not according to their expectations. You can sell any BS as long as your mark expects things to be as you present him. That how you sell BS btw. They sell a lot of that.

Edited by ZachariasX
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7 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

 

It is also my impression that there was adjustments made to accommodate the most common peripherals. I think this would be a good decision.

 

But if someone learned to taxi the Spit without using the brakes, then things are much less of an issue. Yes, you just can‘t taxi the Spit in Daytona manner as you can the Mustang (after all, that one is the „Cadillac of the Sky“ for a reason ;)), but you wouldn‘t anyway. Planes from the thirties were NOT fitted wheel brakes at all as standard. This tell you how people were used to control aircraft.

 

My point was more that in terms of kinetics, the tilt on the nose comes much before the tail swing when hitting brakes while taxiing straight. If the brakes are slower to bite, the swing should be reduced equally.

 

So yes, I don‘t think the Spit in the sim should act as it does at times. But I also think there should be a minimal effort by the player to control the aircraft as he should. 

 

 

That's a great point about brakes and not even having them. Most aircraft were flown from grass fields and many didn't have brakes until concrete runways started to become a thing and so it makes sense that aviators from that era wouldn't have even expected to have a braking system. Definitely interesting to considered.

 

A little bit of technique and trial and error with the Spitfire and ground handling gets a bit easier. As it does with the MiG-3, and the Bf110 and any of the others that are particularly challenging to handle on the ground. All of them have unique techniques... I really get weirded out when I take a P-39 or A-20 with the very strong differential brakes. Makes things easy but its a switch when going from something like the Spitfire. Then there's the Fw190 with the 'hold the stick back' tailwheel lock. Ground looped that one a bunch recently.

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Posted (edited)

Are there any plans to do anything about this poor ground handling of tail draggers?

 

Normally in sims I love the take off and landings but in this don't look forward to it in a trail dragger. I know with more practice it will become easier, but that doesn't make it realistic. Watching a documentary recently it was mentioned while the Spit might not be the easiest aircraft to handle on the ground it does not have a great tendency to ground loop, basically you have to really get it wrong to do so, unlike here where it's quite easy to do it.

 

I know this sim focus on the combat side of things, but I think it's important to get the FM to a reasonably accurate state.

Edited by Tbolt47

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8 minutes ago, Tbolt47 said:

Are there any plans to do anything about this poor ground handling of tail draggers?

Supermarine actually looked into that, but they concluded it was not worth the bother.

 

9 minutes ago, Tbolt47 said:

Watching a documentary recently it was mentioned while the Spit might not be the easiest aircraft to handle on the ground it does not have a great tendency to ground loop, basically you have to really get it wrong to do so, unlike here where it's quite easy to do it.

No.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

No.

 

And that's based on what? Dodge Bailey says otherwise and he's flown enough WWII aircraft to know what he's talking about.

Edited by Tbolt47

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Posted (edited)

Tbolt, I'm with you all the way here, but be prepared to be flamed by all the members of the "harder is more real, even if it isn't really" crowd.  This battle has been waged repeatedly over the years, to no avail.  Everyone on this forum claims to want ever greater "realism", yet this very unrealistic ground looping behavior gets not just a pass, but a raving endorsement here because too many people believe that the more difficult a thing is to do, the more realistic it is.  It is utter nonsense, but the crowds have spoken, and Caesar has made his decree... Ground loops for the proles!!!

Edited by BlitzPig_EL
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My 'Two Cents' worth.

At a small grass airfield in Ontario, Canada , I spoke with Chris Hadfield who flies the Mk IX Spit

in Ottawa, as well as the P-40.

Concerning the Spit: 

"Take off is easy with no need for differential braking. It runs out straight on landing."

The bugbear, as I got it, is the general nose heavy tendency, and the tight cowling

that encourages overheating on the  ground.

 

I find the in-game Spit very easy to taxi. Also needs the least power to get rolling.

The flaw in the flight model I think is the severe ground loop tendency that

one overcomes with hard differential braking--which would make

a real Spitfire the world's most expensive weed eater.

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But...but...but...  That's an account from a real pilot, and we can't take any pilot accounts as truth.

 

Wait for it, it's coming.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, vonNutz said:

My 'Two Cents' worth.

At a small grass airfield in Ontario, Canada , I spoke with Chris Hadfield who flies the Mk IX Spit

in Ottawa, as well as the P-40.

Concerning the Spit: 

"Take off is easy with no need for differential braking. It runs out straight on landing."

The bugbear, as I got it, is the general nose heavy tendency, and the tight cowling

that encourages overheating on the  ground.

 

I find the in-game Spit very easy to taxi. Also needs the least power to get rolling.

The flaw in the flight model I think is the severe ground loop tendency that

one overcomes with hard differential braking--which would make

a real Spitfire the world's most expensive weed eater.

 

Agree that it's not too bad to taxi but it should not ground loop that easy.

 

Dodge Bailey says that the Spitfire is a pretty straight forward aircraft on the ground and rare for anyone to ground loop it, unlike the Hurricane, Gladiator and Lysander which are all prone to ground looping and he does regularly fly all of those and many more types.

 

 

13 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

But...but...but...  That's an account from a real pilot, and we can't take any pilot accounts as truth.

 

Wait for it, it's coming.

 

Yes obviously we should just ignore videos like this, these pilots clearly don't know what they are talking about 😉

 

 

Edited by Tbolt47
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For spit / 109 / 190 I use either low rpm (when taxiing the spit) or manual prop pitch to 50-ish % (for 109/190) I found that it helps me greatly. No idea if it's SOP in the real things.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tbolt47 said:

And that's based on what? Dodge Bailey says otherwise and he's flown enough WWII aircraft to know what he's talking about.

Based on flying with one myself.

 

Edit: I might add that most poeple (sim ou RL) can't land with a taildragger properly. It just does not work as it is possible with a tricycle landing gear. But it is a common sight. I would estimate 4 out of 5 airliner pilots land their AC in a bad way in severe crosswind condition and settle down crabwhise, just because todays aircraft allow such. Especially vintage taildraggers do have some requirements on how to settle her down. This is not obvious to a Cessna sim pilot. But if what you are used to is a Tiger Moth without wheel brakes, you'll do it right and it is absolutely no problem to land a Spitfire. A Spitfire is not a difficult plane to handle, provided you expect her being the way she is. She has plenty character.

 

The only thing that our sim Spit has particular to herself is that her tail swings around almost by iteslf in the very final part of rolling out. If you are taxiing the real one, yes, then constant work on the ruder is required to control her. The real one would just dig in with her nose if you use the brakes as you can use them in the sim rather than swing around.

Edited by ZachariasX
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I admit to trouble landing all tail draggers. But taxing is a short learning curve. However, I taxi crazy slow, like 5-15kph normally.

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1 hour ago, cardboard_killer said:

I taxi crazy slow, like 5-15kph normally.

That is NOT slow.

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A Spit drives as good as the cars in your local school zone can fly.

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Open throttle a tad more. The propeller makes your slipstream, not your driving speed.

 

Taxi slow, stick all the way back, ALWAYS during taxi and like that you can hold her. To turn her, make pivot turns. Once she settled, go straight again to where you want to go. Get used to not using the brakes much. You may tap them very shortly when going SLOW. You only go fast with the intent to take off straight ahead.

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3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Based on flying with one myself.

 

Edit: I might add that most poeple (sim ou RL) can't land with a taildragger properly. It just does not work as it is possible with a tricycle landing gear. But it is a common sight. I would estimate 4 out of 5 airliner pilots land their AC in a bad way in severe crosswind condition and settle down crabwhise, just because todays aircraft allow such. Especially vintage taildraggers do have some requirements on how to settle her down. This is not obvious to a Cessna sim pilot. But if what you are used to is a Tiger Moth without wheel brakes, you'll do it right and it is absolutely no problem to land a Spitfire. A Spitfire is not a difficult plane to handle, provided you expect her being the way she is. She has plenty character.

 

The only thing that our sim Spit has particular to herself is that her tail swings around almost by iteslf in the very final part of rolling out. If you are taxiing the real one, yes, then constant work on the ruder is required to control her. The real one would just dig in with her nose if you use the brakes as you can use them in the sim rather than swing around.

 

Okay I just misunderstood the meaning of your "no".

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I use 50% Rpm and around 11% throttle on the Mk. IX and have no real issues. The only thing I've noticed is that once you have the minimum amount of power to get it rolling in a controlled fashion, throttling back is a real no-no.  After that, it's an uncontrollable left turn. 

 

It's a slower, more ponderous taxi than I'd imagine the real plane to be able to do, but it seems to work for me.    

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It's that uncontrollable left turn at the very end of your landing runout that is just totally bizarre.

 

A: your speed is low

 

B: the engine is at idle rpm, so torque/P factor should not be an issue

 

Hence, there is no logical reason for the aircraft to make an uninitiated left turn, yet, there it is.  And yes I know it can be stopped by stabbing the brake, but this goes against the real way to fly the thing.

 

Why????????????

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40 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

It's a slower, more ponderous taxi than I'd imagine the real plane to be able to do, but it seems to work for me.    

Apparently the brakes are also somewhat of a no-no in real-life when you're taxiing as well. Just careful throttle and rudder (again, apparently!!). I find the MkIX easier than the MkV though...

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23 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Hence, there is no logical reason for the aircraft to make an uninitiated left turn

It depends how slipstream is modelled in the FM. The prop causes a right-handed spiral slipstream around your aircraft. As it circles around your aircraft going aft, it will push from the left side to your tailplane. In case of a Do-335 layout, it would cancel out as the upper part of the tail fin is pushed from the left side, causing the aircraft to veer left, but as it circles around the aircraft it would push on the lower fin from the right, effectively inducing a roll to the right insetad of a left yaw. In R/C model aircaraft, you notice this effect very well. To counter that, you tilt the entire engine/propshaft slightly off angle, in case of the Spitfire you'd bend the whole nose slightly to the right. Some newer turboprop aircraft have that, as the whole engine/propeller part is small enough to mount it at an offset angle.

 

You can see this with the Pilatus PC-21 turboprop trainer as opposed to the Spit:

Spoiler

PC-21-2.jpg

 

For R/C aircraft, it is common paractise to add some 4 degrees or so to the engine to make it go straight.

 

It might well be that our dear FM notices such things. If it was due to this, the trolley in the back of the Spit should be way less sensitive to this. In general, I feel the threshold to make her swing should be slightly higher, especially when letting her go "hands off" on the ground. If it was this effect, it shouldn't be able to inititate the swing.

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The best technique I have for not ground looping is to idle the throttle before the wheels touch the floor and glide into the landing, let it coast straight on the runway for a moment or two, then slowly apply brakes. Works perfectly near every time

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Taildragger characteristics are  based on the design.  This post is basic in nature.

 

 

Spitfire.   1240019577_Spitfiredatum.jpg.fa7c8d4a9baaaa155255bb6fec5c1492.jpg

 

The Spit's close proximity of main wheels to CG plumb point means that the rudder and brakes are more* effective and the forward roll is less* unstable BUT

the tail is very light and the aircraft can't be high power run chocked without tying the tail down.  The Spit was rather famous for prop damage and noseovers.

 

 

 

Me109.  1005627847_Bf.109F-2CG.jpg.14ad71a4928660158448f344a18654a7.jpg

 

The ME's wheels were much further forward of the CG plumb point which means the pilot had to act much sooner with the rudder and brakes because the forward roll was

much more* unstable than the Spit and this reduced the apparent effectiveness of them.  This location put much more weight on the tailwheel (requiring a larger tire) and as a

result the aircraft could be chocked and high power run without tying down the tail.  In the end the ME was not prone to noseovers BUT was famous for its groundloops.

 

* these are relative terms between the two aircraft, obviously.

 

Whether the gear is narrow or wide the result is mostly only on how effective the brakes are, the wider the gear the more effective the brakes.  Brakes are used as soon as

the pilot realizes he's way behind the game and full rudder is not arresting the deviant swing.  There has been a time or two when I've smashed both full rudder AND hard brakes

at the same time to avoid what was ... well, obviously not my fault, but a sudden uncommanded swing no one, and I mean literally no one because it wasn't my fault, could have

anticipated.  With success, I might add.  I swear it just jumped right out in front of me ... like a tree.

 

So, it's all a trade-off.  It looks like, being an interceptor, it was never really anticipated that the Spit would ever operate off of unimproved fields allowing a more stable ground

handling design for standard RAF airfields while the whole concept of the Luftwaffe was to operate off of forward fields behind the ever advancing lines of the victorious

Wehrmacht with the rough advance fields considered likely to contribute to aircraft noseovers reducing aircraft availability.

 

 

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3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Open throttle a tad more. The propeller makes your slipstream, not your driving speed.

 

But opening up my throttle makes me go faster, right? I can do it, I just feel like I'm barely moving. I cannot imagine being in a conga line on a server and going that slow, but if that's what people do, then I'm good.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chuter said:

Brakes are used as soon as the pilot realizes he's way behind the game and full rudder is not arresting the deviant swing. 

Not on these aircraft IRL. If you use brakes for things other than a gentle full stop, you are not able to operate them, lest get them airborne. These aircraft are from an age where GA aircraft didn‘t have wheel brakes at all, hence using them for your purpose wasn‘t even intuitive. Besides, you would burn your brakes in just a couple of sorties.

 

For example today, it is common sense to use the brakes when a car is too fast when going downhill. In 1940, you could hit your car‘s brakes and all you‘d get is some stink and that was the last you got from them. Back then, you shifted the gear down to slow down. Hence it is obvious that even some of the the cheapest new cars can drive rings around any antique sports car.

 

This is why you don‘t pass antique mechanics to just anyone, even though they might be simple. They are just not what you‘d expect it to be today.

 

1 hour ago, cardboard_killer said:

But opening up my throttle makes me go faster, right?

The aircraft in the sim require a lot of power to get moving. More than the real aircraft. A tad less power than what you need to get moving will still give you some control. Use your runway. There‘s plenty of space. No need for a STOL competition.

 

As for the sim, keep some power when using the brakes for a stop. If you feel you‘re losing your tail power up and kick the rudder hard. Throttle back when you have her stable again.

Edited by ZachariasX

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Compared to DCS's version of the Spit, Il-2's is a breeze. Ground handling of warbirds in that sim is absolutely absurd. It's taken me months to get good enough to taxi, take-off and land reliably in it. And still occasionally bork it, especially when landing against a strong crosswind.

 

But maybe developing my skills in DCS transferred over to IL-2...?

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9 hours ago, GrislyAccord said:

Compared to DCS's version of the Spit, Il-2's is a breeze. Ground handling of warbirds in that sim is absolutely absurd. It's taken me months to get good enough to taxi, take-off and land reliably in it. And still occasionally bork it, especially when landing against a strong crosswind.

 

But maybe developing my skills in DCS transferred over to IL-2...?

 

Fully agree.

I cut my Spit teeth on DCS first as I had it before IL-2's Spit came out, and taming the ground handling was quite a chore.

I eventually got it but it can be a handful getting used to it.

I had zero problems with the IL-2 GB Spit , in fact when I fly PWCG I use cold start and taxi to runway missions.

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