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RedKestrel

Upgrading - Where to Start? RAM, CPU, GPU?

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This is taking the long view of things - basically, my PC is a couple years old now and when I bought it it was a mid-low range rig. It is still adequate for my purposes but I can see that within the next couple years its going to go from OK to poor in terms of how it handles Il-2. If BoN is as much of an extra load as BoBP it will definitely be time for some upgrades. 

The basics of my PC are as follows: 
Windows 10
Intel i5 7500 3.4 ghz
Geforce GTX 1060 3GB 
8 GB Ram DDR4 @ 2133 mhz

I run 1080p on a 60 hz monitor, frames are usually hovering around 60 fps on Balanced or High presets, medium shadows, High clouds, 70 km horizon draw distance, with sharpen on and just about everything else off.

I do get occasional stutters, not bad at all in SP, in MP used to be more annoying but recent patches helped. My understanding is that stuttering is an indication of higher load on the GPU rather than the CPU.

Looking at my specs, my first instinct is to upgrade the RAM to 16GB. Is that likely to make a significant difference in performance? It's cheap in the grand scheme of things but if I am limited by other factors like the GPU or CPU, I might as well save my money for those. 

If I had to pick between upgrading my GPU or CPU first, which should I go with for Il-2? I know its often said that Il-2 is processor intensive.

 

Edited by RedKestrel
EDIT: Fixed my specs

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Il-2 is not processor intensive.

Generally, this days, for gaming, a graphics card update will give you the most performance boost, unless you are badly bottlenecked by the CPU or memory. In your case, i think the memory is your bottleneck. Going to 16GB of fast memory should fix some of the freezes. After that it depends how much you want to spend and the target resolution. If you plan on increasing resolution and have some head room for future eye candy upgrade that usually comes with game updates, a stronger card is the safer choice.

 If you plan to change everything, i'd get the parts that allow me to at least play at max settings and good frames right now, so i have some headroom for the future. 

For CPU anything over six cores and six threads from both, intel and AMD will do right now. The game engine is old and can't efficiently use high core counts right now. High boost clock and fast memory speed is what works best with this old engines.

So because of that intel chips have a bit of an edge for this game. 9900k/ks is the best cpu right now for il-2. 

AMD  chips are better for everything else outside gaming and are better value.

 Ryzen 3000 serie CPUs are very good for gaming as well and once you turn on some eye candy or up the resolution, you won't be able to tell the difference between any of the top ten CPUs. Intel or AMD it doesn't matter.

 I forgot. If you run the game from a spinning hard drive, adding an SSD will make a solid difference in responsivnes and load time.

  

 

Edited by Jaws2002
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7 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

Il-2 is not processor intensive.

Generally, this days, for gaming, a graphics card update will give you the most performance boost, unless you are badly bottlenecked by the CPU or memory. In your case, i think the memory is your bottleneck. Going to 16GB of fast memory should fix some of the freezes. After that it depends how much you want to spend and the target resolution. If you plan on increasing resolution and have some head room for future eye candy upgrade that usually comes with game updates, a stronger card is the safer choice.

 If you plan to change everything, i'd get the parts that allow me to at least play at max settings and good frames right now, so i have some headroom for the future. 

For CPU anything over six cores and six threads from both, intel and AMD will do right now. The game engine is old and can't efficiently use high core counts right now. High boost clock and fast memory speed is what works best with this old engines.

So because of that intel chips have a bit of an edge for this game. 9900k/ks is the best cpu right now for il-2. 

AMD  chips are better for everything else outside gaming and are better value.

 Ryzen 3000 serie CPUs are very good for gaming as well and once you turn on some eye candy or up the resolution, you won't be able to tell the difference between any of the top ten CPUs. Intel or AMD it doesn't matter.

 I forgot. If you run the game from a spinning hard drive, adding an SSD will make a solid difference in responsivnes and load time.

  

 

Thanks for all this! I think if I do decide to upgrade my processor I am probably looking at the AMD Ryzens. To a relative layperson like myself, it seems that Intel's highest end chips only give marginal gains over AMD for a lot more in price.

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If this game is the most intensive app you use on the computer, Intel top cpus 9900k/ks and 9700k have an advantage because of high boost clock and fsb speed. I need the computer for other tasks as well so i went AMD because the performance advantage in multithreaded tasks of this 3950x over any intel mainstream CPU is massive. This thing is literly two three times faster than 9900k. The game is just too old to make good use of it.

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2 hours ago, Jaws2002 said:

If this game is the most intensive app you use on the computer, Intel top cpus 9900k/ks and 9700k have an advantage because of high boost clock and fsb speed. I need the computer for other tasks as well so i went AMD because the performance advantage in multithreaded tasks of this 3950x over any intel mainstream CPU is massive. This thing is literly two three times faster than 9900k. The game is just too old to make good use of it.

I use the PC mostly for Il-2. My daughter has a few games - Minecraft and the like. Nothing too strenuous on the machine. Probably Il-2 is the hardest it gets run.

But my wife uses it for art, photo editing, and other stuff like that. Not sure if that involves a lot of multithreaded processing or not, its out of my wheelhouse. 

Although looking into it, I just realized that swapping out for a Ryzen involves also getting a new motherboard...so that negates the price advantage a little bit.

In any event I think the order I'm going to go in is RAM - GPU and then CPU. Thanks again!

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1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

I use the PC mostly for Il-2. My daughter has a few games - Minecraft and the like. Nothing too strenuous on the machine. Probably Il-2 is the hardest it gets run.

But my wife uses it for art, photo editing, and other stuff like that. Not sure if that involves a lot of multithreaded processing or not, its out of my wheelhouse. 

Although looking into it, I just realized that swapping out for a Ryzen involves also getting a new motherboard...so that negates the price advantage a little bit.

In any event I think the order I'm going to go in is RAM - GPU and then CPU. Thanks again!

Also, I believe that AMD is a little more consumer-friendly in that they tend to use their sockets for more CPU generations than Intel tends to, which requires a motherboard replacement less frequently. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be my experience.

Although I think I read that the upcoming Ryzen processors later this year will be the last for the current AM4 socket, so if you jump into AMD this year that benefit may not exist due to the timing.

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5 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

This is taking the long view of things - basically, my PC is a couple years old now and when I bought it it was a mid-low range rig. It is still adequate for my purposes but I can see that within the next couple years its going to go from OK to poor in terms of how it handles Il-2. If BoN is as much of an extra load as BoBP it will definitely be time for some upgrades. 

The basics of my PC are as follows: 
Windows 10
Intel i5 7500k 3.4 ghz
Geforce GTX 1060 3GB 
8 GB Ram

I run 1080p on a 60 hz monitor, frames are usually hovering around 60 fps on Balanced or High presets, medium shadows, High clouds, 70 km horizon draw distance, with sharpen on and just about everything else off.

I do get occasional stutters, not bad at all in SP, in MP used to be more annoying but recent patches helped. My understanding is that stuttering is an indication of higher load on the GPU rather than the CPU.

Looking at my specs, my first instinct is to upgrade the RAM to 16GB. Is that likely to make a significant difference in performance? It's cheap in the grand scheme of things but if I am limited by other factors like the GPU or CPU, I might as well save my money for those. 

If I had to pick between upgrading my GPU or CPU first, which should I go with for Il-2? I know its often said that Il-2 is processor intensive.

 

 

I believe that the stutters are related to the time it takes to load new objects from system RAM into GPU memory. The reason I think so, is that I get them a lot when I run my DDR3 RAM at the stock speed (1333 MHz) and they mostly disappear at 2400 MHz overclock. So if you're going for RAM upgrade, I'd advise to get reasonably fast RAM. 16 GB is fine for IL-2. If you're going to play DCS (especially modules like the F-14), you'd need some more.

 

Assuming you could push 4.4+ GHz on the current CPU, it should be good for anything outside of VR. Decent cooler might be the easiest way to get more performance.

 

My current PC has Intel i7-4790k running at 4.4 GHz (can overclock to 4.7, but I haven't noticed a difference in performance), 16 GB DDR3 RAM @ 2400 MHz, pair of Radeon Rx480 4GB cards, running at 1303 Mhz in CrossFire mode, and a very old monitor. I run most settings on highest level, except for the grass distance. I get my 60 Hz upper limit at altitude and 40+ Hz on deck on the Kuban map.

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Looking deeper into getting new RAM, it looks like my motherboard may not support faster RAM? It is an ASUS H110M-E-M2 and the documentation I found limits the RAM speed to 2133 MHz. I assume that means I shouldn’t worry about overclock speeds and such for the ram, as it’s bottlenecked by the motherboard...

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22 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Looking deeper into getting new RAM, it looks like my motherboard may not support faster RAM? It is an ASUS H110M-E-M2 and the documentation I found limits the RAM speed to 2133 MHz. I assume that means I shouldn’t worry about overclock speeds and such for the ram, as it’s bottlenecked by the motherboard...

Yes, it looks like it. However the performance of Intel processors isn't as affected by RAM speed as AMD CPUs are, from what I've read. At least RAM is a lot cheaper now than it was a year or two ago, so faster memory won't be that much more expensive than slower choices if you plan on upgrading in the near term and don't want to buy it all over again.

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Unfortunately you’re a bit stuck on some of those parts. The 1060 3GB is significantly worse than the 6GB card and frankly should not be allowed to be called a 1060. But overall your current components probably balance each other quite nicely.

 

You probably need to plan to upgrade in chunks. Today’s RAM is DDR4, not 3, so cpu plus motherboard plus RAM is one upgrade step, and then GPU is another. I don’t know enough about 2D mode to know if your current cpu is a bottleneck, but it’s not super fast. You might get quite a boost from going to a midrange AMD (Ryzen 5 3600 or something) plus 16GB of DDR4-3200. You could then consider a GPU upgrade separately.

 

One thing to bear in mind is computer stuff generally always gets better and faster. So unless you need to upgrade today because the pc doesn’t do something you want, waiting will generally yield you a better thing for the same or less money. But if you feel the current performance is stopping you having fun and you want to upgrade, that’s cool. There are Only very few times when it’s sensible to wait for a specific thing, usually within a month or two of a launch window.

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As Alonzo says, you should look at replacing the RAM, Motherboard and CPU together, no point buying RAM now (unless you can get it very cheap) and then replacing it 6 months later when you upgrade the CPU. Personally, when you move to a new CPU I would go with 32GB of RAM, just to future proof your system a bit as it's one of the cheaper components and adding RAM later can be an issue if the sticks aren't matched.

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7 hours ago, Alonzo said:

Unfortunately you’re a bit stuck on some of those parts. The 1060 3GB is significantly worse than the 6GB card and frankly should not be allowed to be called a 1060. But overall your current components probably balance each other quite nicely.

 

You probably need to plan to upgrade in chunks. Today’s RAM is DDR4, not 3, so cpu plus motherboard plus RAM is one upgrade step, and then GPU is another. I don’t know enough about 2D mode to know if your current cpu is a bottleneck, but it’s not super fast. You might get quite a boost from going to a midrange AMD (Ryzen 5 3600 or something) plus 16GB of DDR4-3200. You could then consider a GPU upgrade separately.

 

One thing to bear in mind is computer stuff generally always gets better and faster. So unless you need to upgrade today because the pc doesn’t do something you want, waiting will generally yield you a better thing for the same or less money. But if you feel the current performance is stopping you having fun and you want to upgrade, that’s cool. There are Only very few times when it’s sensible to wait for a specific thing, usually within a month or two of a launch window.

Thanks for the advice!

My motherboard supports DDR4 RAM, it just throttles the speeds to 2133 mHz apparently.  Looking around you can get 2x8GB of RAM at 3200 mHz plus for around $100. The slower stuff is not really much cheaper, if at all. So I could theoretically get 16 GB of decent speed DDR4 Ram for now and then when I replace the motherboard, make sure it has 4 RAM slots and then pick up another 2 sticks of 8GB RAM if I feel I need it.

I don't really know anything about motherboards unfortunately. The range in prices is substantial. I don't want to hamstring myself again with the wrong board but on the other hand I don't want to pay hundreds of dollars extra for capabilities I won't ever use. What kind of things should I be looking for in a motherboard? (I realize this is likely a very loaded question!).

Looking back, I really wish I had been more up on modern computer components when I made the purchase, it seems like a couple hundred dollars mores at the outset may have saved me some hassle. But at the time my old computer had just died and I needed something pretty quickly on a budget. I wish there was less gamer buzzwords around the hardware too. I don't care how epic something is, I just want to know if it will do the thing!

 

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The motherboard is a tricky one. If you plan to go AMD you can ger any mid range x570 board. As mentioned before the AM4 socket will be replaced next year, so you only have one upgrade available after the current Ryzen 3000 cpus.

If you go intel it's even worse, since the current intel cpus are the last to use this socket. 

The new intel cpus that are weeks from being released, will come with new socket, so if you buy a 9900k and the like, you won't be able to swap the CPU later down yhe road. 

In my opinion, if you plan to change the motherboard, CPU and RAM and plan to go Intel, you will get a much more future proof platform by waiting for the Comet Lake serie cpus, that should be released in mid April.

That way you will get a new platform with a future proof socket.

Edited by Jaws2002

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Do you have the i5-7500 or the i5-7600K? Because there is no 7500K. The K means it is unlocked for overclock. Since you mentioned 3.4Ghz, might be the i5-7500, and you are stuck on a lower clock. Then I think it is best to replace it all, CPU, memory and GPU. But I would wait for the Nvidia Ampere, 3000 series.

 

If you have the 7600K, you can overclock it to 4.6ghz, call it a day and wait for the next generation of Intels and chose either an Intel i5-10600K (six cores / 12 threads) or an AMD one. I mentioned the 10600K because it can handle Photoshop and such with ease. Unless your wife renders videos, an overclocked Intel with 12 threads gives you a good cost benefit and will run Il-2 fine, even if you decide to get a VR set later on. Or you can get the i7-10700K (eight cores / 16 threads), but it will require a beefier motherboard to overclock it.

 

Memory is somewhat cheap now, so you could get 16GB 3600Mhz with CL16 for about $100.

 

Anyway, I would wait for the Ryzen 4000 series, Intel Comet Lake and Nvidia Ampere and see what is best.

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On the topic of motherboards, AMD has shown everyone just how hard Intel has been screwing us all over with their incompatible socket updates. I really hope Intel takes the hint and starts to produce boards where you can drop in next year's chip, but I suspect hubris will get the better of them and they won't improve. If you picked AMD ~2 years ago you're laughing right now, because you can drop in a very nice new chip and all your other stuff still works, and you might be getting a 50% performance boost. With Intel we're all stuck on whatever we picked at the time.

 

IL2 in VR is about the only place where you need to go Intel. Otherwise you should probably give your money to AMD. More cores, better all around performance, better upgrade paths with the socket, and you get to stick the middle finger to Intel.

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25 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

Do you have the i5-7500 or the i5-7600K? Because there is no 7500K. The K means it is unlocked for overclock. Since you mentioned 3.4Ghz, might be the i5-7500, and you are stuck on a lower clock. Then I think it is best to replace it all, CPU, memory and GPU. But I would wait for the Nvidia Ampere, 3000 series.

 

If you have the 7600K, you can overclock it to 4.6ghz, call it a day and wait for the next generation of Intels and chose either an Intel i5-10600K (six cores / 12 threads) or an AMD one. I mentioned the 10600K because it can handle Photoshop and such with ease. Unless your wife renders videos, an overclocked Intel with 12 threads gives you a good cost benefit and will run Il-2 fine, even if you decide to get a VR set later on. Or you can get the i7-10700K (eight cores / 16 threads), but it will require a beefier motherboard to overclock it.

 

Memory is somewhat cheap now, so you could get 16GB 3600Mhz with CL16 for about $100.

 

Anyway, I would wait for the Ryzen 4000 series, Intel Comet Lake and Nvidia Ampere and see what is best.

I thought that when I looked it up on my machine it had a k on the end...of course I am away from my main PC at the moment. Either I am misremembering the 3.4gHz (might be 3.7?) OR misremembering if the processor was the 7500 or 7600k. My brain has been fried from work lately, my apologies.

I know I keep waffling here on what I'm going to do but the more I learn the more twisty my upgrade rabbit hole seems to get. I seem to think better if I can write it out and get feedback so bear with me.

If the processor is the 7600k then my logic goes like this for upgrades:

-Overclock the CPU and see if that makes a difference - probably my bottleneck is memory/graphics though

-Add 16GB new RAM and just deal with the lower RAM speeds offered by my motherboard for now
-Replace GPU with a faster unit (would the motherboard be an issue here? my understanding is the GPU connects directly to the power supply, and the connector to the motherboard is pretty standard, right?)

-Then replace the motherboard and CPU once we see how the new generation of CPUs pans out. 

It looks like I can get 16Gb of DDR4 3200 for about $100 and a GTX 1660 for about 300, so total upgrade cost of $400.00 ish. 

Ryzen 5 3600 or 3600 x  and X570 motherboard together are in the 500.00 to 550.00 range. Plus RAM would be $100

If I'm in for replacing the CPU, then It's motherboard, CPU, and RAM at once. Then GPU down the line. That upgrade is $600-650.

 

Altogether looking at $1000. Steep for me, but if I can chunk it out over a longer amount of time then its more manageable. 

I really need to do some testing to see where my bottleneck is. 

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You can open the Task Manager (Ctl Alt Del) and see how much RAM are you using. I'm not sure about the GPU, but you could install MSI Afterburner to check GPU usage.

 

You can check what CPU you have on Control Panel / System and Security / System. It should display the CPU.

 

If you have the 7600K, you could buy RAM and OC the processor, buy a 240mm AIO. If you said that you are not having much problems now with Il-2, I would wait for the Nvidia 3000 series and probably an Intel or Ryzen 4000. An i5 overclocked can run il-2 with ease. The only problem with the Nvidia 3000 series is that they will release the 3080 and 3070. You will have to wait perhaps to end of the year, early 2021 for the 3060 and below.

 

But I have a 1060 6GB with a 2560X1080p monitor (bigger than a regular 1080p) and I will for sure wait for the Nvidia 3000 series. I running Il-2 fine with it.

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Instal msi afterburner and enable on screen monitoring. It gives you the ability to monitor, as you play, a large number of variables, from individual core speeds, temperature, to memory usage, video card boost, temperature, memory....

 

Her's an example.

I was just checking the CPU core usage, so that's what you see on the screen, butt it does a heck of a lot more than that.

 

 

Whatever you see running at 100% most of the time, you know that's your bottleneck.

 

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45 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

Instal msi afterburner and enable on screen monitoring. It gives you the ability to monitor, as you play, a large number of variables, from individual core speeds, temperature, to memory usage, video card boost, temperature, memory....

 

Her's an example.

I was just checking the CPU core usage, so that's what you see on the screen, butt it does a heck of a lot more than that.

 

 

Whatever you see running at 100% most of the time, you know that's your bottleneck.

 

Can you log that stuff as well, so you can look at it after a session?

EDIT: Nevermind, found a tutorial showing how to do it. I think this will be my first priority - set the settings I want to use and see what my bottleneck is.

Edited by RedKestrel
Did some googling for myself

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6 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

Do you have the i5-7500 or the i5-7600K? Because there is no 7500K. The K means it is unlocked for overclock. Since you mentioned 3.4Ghz, might be the i5-7500, and you are stuck on a lower clock. Then I think it is best to replace it all, CPU, memory and GPU. But I would wait for the Nvidia Ampere, 3000 series.

 

If you have the 7600K, you can overclock it to 4.6ghz, call it a day and wait for the next generation of Intels and chose either an Intel i5-10600K (six cores / 12 threads) or an AMD one. I mentioned the 10600K because it can handle Photoshop and such with ease. Unless your wife renders videos, an overclocked Intel with 12 threads gives you a good cost benefit and will run Il-2 fine, even if you decide to get a VR set later on. Or you can get the i7-10700K (eight cores / 16 threads), but it will require a beefier motherboard to overclock it.

 

Memory is somewhat cheap now, so you could get 16GB 3600Mhz with CL16 for about $100.

 

Anyway, I would wait for the Ryzen 4000 series, Intel Comet Lake and Nvidia Ampere and see what is best.

See edit in my original post, my processor is in fact the i5 7500, so no overclock for me.

Edited by RedKestrel

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I think your 7500 (non-K) is quite suspect. If you want to do this in two expenditures, I'd first do CPU/mobo/RAM, then later GPU. You can get a B450 board a lot cheaper than the X570, I'm not sure you need all the high end features. This $388 combination includes a $30 cooler, I'm not sure how the boxed 3600 cooler fares. Also I didn't check specific RAM/Ryzen compatibility, I know it has been an issue in the past. 3200 RAM is easier to get working than 3600, but you might be able to do better than the one I picked randomly here.

 

Another thing to consider is whether it's worth anything to you to build an entirely new PC rather than incrementally upgrade the old one. Do you ever have contention for the PC? Would you like your family to be able to use the old PC? It's more cost, of course, but once you've done a GPU as well it's not that much more to just build a new rig, then you can do something useful with the old one.

 

 

parts1.png

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1 hour ago, Alonzo said:

I think your 7500 (non-K) is quite suspect. If you want to do this in two expenditures, I'd first do CPU/mobo/RAM, then later GPU. You can get a B450 board a lot cheaper than the X570, I'm not sure you need all the high end features. This $388 combination includes a $30 cooler, I'm not sure how the boxed 3600 cooler fares. Also I didn't check specific RAM/Ryzen compatibility, I know it has been an issue in the past. 3200 RAM is easier to get working than 3600, but you might be able to do better than the one I picked randomly here.

 

Another thing to consider is whether it's worth anything to you to build an entirely new PC rather than incrementally upgrade the old one. Do you ever have contention for the PC? Would you like your family to be able to use the old PC? It's more cost, of course, but once you've done a GPU as well it's not that much more to just build a new rig, then you can do something useful with the old one.

 

 

parts1.png

Are those American prices? The cheapest I’ve found the processor for is about 220to 240. And the same ram is about 100 on Amazon or newegg. But if I can get away with a cheaper motherboard, then that makes a big difference.

 

Just building a new pc from scratch has entered my mind. Realistically upgrading this machine is going to involve basically every major component. But that is just not in the cards at the moment...I was hoping there would be some low hanging fruit for upgrading. 

 

I did download MSI afterburner and did a bit of unscientific stress testing...at my normal settings, on the Rheinland map over a big city in the QMB, with 8 fighters vs. 8 bombers. The processor was running pretty high and topped out at 90% or so. The GPU was lower most of the time, but it had some big spikes. The RAM however was consistently high usage and near the ground it was running at 7.5 gb at times, close to max. So it does seem that a RAM upgrade would help a bit, but I think most of the benefit would be lost as the processor becomes the limiting factor. I have to do some more rigorous testing to really see what’s what.

 

Thanks again for the info! I have a much better idea on what to look for! It’s been very helpful.

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1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

Are those American prices? The cheapest I’ve found the processor for is about 220to 240. And the same ram is about 100 on Amazon or newegg. But if I can get away with a cheaper motherboard, then that makes a big difference.

 

Yes, if you're in the US you want to have a look at PC Part Picker. Or wander down to your local MicroCentre, they will help you in-person and have prices almost as good as the online prices. I'm in Canada and I use Canadian PC Part Picker to get good prices and do a "price match" at my local brick and mortar retailer.

 

https://pcpartpicker.com/

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6 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I think most of the benefit would be lost as the processor becomes the limiting factor.

 

I'm surprised it's the cpu. I do agree that building your own box is relatively cheaper, but don't forget to factor in the cost of an OS. Which leads me to question whether IL-2 will run on a linux box?

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2 hours ago, cardboard_killer said:

 

I'm surprised it's the cpu. I do agree that building your own box is relatively cheaper, but don't forget to factor in the cost of an OS. Which leads me to question whether IL-2 will run on a linux box?

I don’t think so. And for what it’s worth, I was running a pretty CPU intensive scenario, with lots of AI. The memory was what came closest to capacity most consistently. Depending on the scenario, like with heavy cloud or lots of ground fire the GPU might be more of the limit. But it’s clear that the cpu can easily be the limit in situations with lots of planes, Ai and physics going on.

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2 hours ago, cardboard_killer said:

I'm surprised it's the cpu.

 

It is the lower clock. The i5-7500 turbo at 3.8Ghz (probably one or two cores), but I believe that on all cores it won't go beyond 3.6Ghz. On any unlocked Intel CPU nowadays we are running at 4.8 / 5Ghz. That makes the difference. Plus, it is just 4 cores, and it has to handle Windows, head tracking devices, controls. My i5-9600K (six cores) at 4.8Ghz won't go past 15/20% usage with all the AIs that I can place in the mission. It is two more cores and an increse of 1.2Ghz in clock.

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58 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

It is the lower clock. The i5-7500 turbo at 3.8Ghz (probably one or two cores), but I believe that on all cores it won't go beyond 3.6Ghz. On any unlocked Intel CPU nowadays we are running at 4.8 / 5Ghz. That makes the difference. Plus, it is just 4 cores, and it has to handle Windows, head tracking devices, controls. My i5-9600K (six cores) at 4.8Ghz won't go past 15/20% usage with all the AIs that I can place in the mission. It is two more cores and an increse of 1.2Ghz in clock.

From the monitoring I did last night it seems like one core takes most of the load and that one gets turbo, the rest clock lower it seems. Just from a brief test though. So I think you are right about one or two cores only getting turbo.

 

Edited by RedKestrel
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You can pick up a legal copy of win 10 pro for around 14 to 25 dollars now.

 

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I got a CD copy of the Pro 10 version and I can reschedule updates or be notified, something that I don’t think is available in OEM versions of the OS, hence why people complain that the computer is updating in the middle of a gaming session, for example.

 

I’m not sure if they fixed this issue.

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9 hours ago, 69th_Panp said:

You can pick up a legal copy of win 10 pro for around 14 to 25 dollars now.

You're funny. Just because it activates has no say whether or not this is a legal copy according to the oppinion of MS.

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Here's a potentially stupid question: right now I have 2 x 4 GB RAM in my machine, and the motherboard has 2 slots. Speed is limited to 2133 mhz by the motherboard, but their maximum speed is 2800 mhz (I believe, if I am reading CPU-Z right.

If I get a motherboard with 4 RAM slots, I plan to purchase 2 x 8 GB 3200 mhz RAM. Could I put in the 2 x 4 GB RAM in the other slots, or does the RAM all have to match in speed and size chunks?

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I should not answer this. But I asked the same question some yesr ago. 
basically the answer was that it would be a bad idea and you would not gain anything doing so. If not slowing it down. I would reccomend at least 16 Ram some games like DCS can utilize up to 28 ram , at least said in fb groups. I do not know how much this game demand. 
as I understand it you can do it but there is no gain and could be making it worser than just use 16 faster ram. I have only sources from know howers on internet. Not exactly best source

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5 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

You're funny. Just because it activates has no say whether or not this is a legal copy according to the oppinion of MS.

Looking into getting Windows on an upgraded machine , apparently there is a way to associate your Windows license to your Microsoft account, so if you replace the motherboard, you can transfer your Windows license over to the new one using that account.

BUT that doesn't work if it was an OEM install, which mine is 99% likely to be seeing as I bought the machine pre-assembled, so I am probably hosed there. I'm probably just going to end up buying it from the Windows Store when I get everything ready to go, just so when I upgrade again I don't have the hassle of trying to figure out if my license is correct. Especially since with how invasive Microsoft is getting, its likely that they're going to take more draconian measures at some point to make sure everyone is using a licensed version of the software. I don't want to wake up one night with Cortana standing over the bed holding one of those plasma rifles from Halo. 
 

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15 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Looking into getting Windows on an upgraded machine , apparently there is a way to associate your Windows license to your Microsoft account, so if you replace the motherboard, you can transfer your Windows license over to the new one using that account.

BUT that doesn't work if it was an OEM install, which mine is 99% likely to be seeing as I bought the machine pre-assembled, so I am probably hosed there. I'm probably just going to end up buying it from the Windows Store when I get everything ready to go, just so when I upgrade again I don't have the hassle of trying to figure out if my license is correct. Especially since with how invasive Microsoft is getting, its likely that they're going to take more draconian measures at some point to make sure everyone is using a licensed version of the software. I don't want to wake up one night with Cortana standing over the bed holding one of those plasma rifles from Halo. 
 

 

I went through this last year, just buy a cheap enterprise key on ebay for a couple bucks (mine was about £3 or so), instead of the hundreds on Windows Store.

Edited by Dijital_Majik

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8 minutes ago, Dijital_Majik said:

 

I went through this last year, just buy a cheap genuine key on ebay for a couple bucks (mine was about £3 or so), instead of the hundreds on Windows Store.


Whenever I see deals like that I just assume its too good to be true. The economics of it just don't make sense. How can someone sell a genuine key to windows for a few bucks when Windows sells it for hundreds? Where are they getting them from?

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11 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:


Whenever I see deals like that I just assume its too good to be true. The economics of it just don't make sense. How can someone sell a genuine key to windows for a few bucks when Windows sells it for hundreds? Where are they getting them from?

 

There's lots of discussion on the net about this.  The position I've taken, and I may be wrong, is that they should be unused OEM or volume licences.  I can't imagine MS not pressuring ebay to take them down if they weren't legit.  But I imagine there are less then scrouplous sellers mixed in as well, and in that case MS may block the key, but you're only out a couple bucks. Caveat emptor

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2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:


Whenever I see deals like that I just assume its too good to be true. The economics of it just don't make sense. How can someone sell a genuine key to windows for a few bucks when Windows sells it for hundreds? Where are they getting them from?

These are grey-market OEM keys.  They're perfectly legitimate for the end user that buys them.  They will activate, and announce themselves as 'Genuine MS Software'.  The only way they won't activate is if the seller had already sold that key and had it activated.  

 

The people that are taking a (very slight) chance selling these keys are the resellers, as they're violating the resale agreement.  These keys are supposed to be tied to hardware - not necessarily a whole new machine, but either a drive, MB, proc, or some combination.  Theoretically MS could sue the sellers that are selling the keys without the hardware, but they haven't done this in ages.  They haven't even blacklisted them from getting new keys.

 

My opinion - MS would give away Windows if they could get away with it from an anti-trust perspective.  They make their big money on Office, Enterprise, and Cloud.  They'd love to have the world on free Windows.  They still give away the upgrade if you've got a 7 or 8 key - they just don't advertise this.  If you're really worried about it, buy a 7 or 8 full retail, boxed product (they're very, very cheap) and use the key to activate Windows 10.  It'll work just fine.

 

Quote

IL2 in VR is about the only place where you need to go Intel.

This isn't necessarily true.  It's very easy to get GPU bound in VR.  If you're GPU bound then you can spend whatever you want on a proc/MB/mem upgrade - you won't see any difference.

Edited by NervousEnergy

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2 minutes ago, NervousEnergy said:

These are grey-market OEM keys.  They're perfectly legitimate for the end user that buys them.  They will activate, and announce themselves as 'Genuine MS Software'.  The only way they won't activate is if the seller had already sold that key and had it activated.  

 

The people that are taking a (very slight) chance selling these keys are the resellers, as they're violating the resale agreement.  These keys are supposed to be tied to hardware - not necessarily a whole new machine, but either a drive, MB, proc, or some combination.  Theoretically MS could sue the sellers that are selling the keys without the hardware, but they haven't done this in ages.  They haven't even blacklisted them from getting new keys.

 

My opinion - MS would give away Windows if they could get away with it from an anti-trust perspective.  They make their big money on Office, Enterprise, and Cloud.  They'd love to have the world on free Windows.  They still give away the upgrade if you've got a 7 or 8 key - they just don't advertise this.  If you're really worried about it, buy a 7 or 8 full retail, boxed product (they're very, very cheap) and use the key to activate Windows.  It'll work just fine.

 

This isn't necessarily true.  It's very easy to get GPU bound in VR.  If you're GPU bound then you can spend whatever you want on a proc/MB/mem upgrade - you won't see any difference.


Well, I might try the key route when it comes down to it. If it ends up being deactivated or something I guess I just buy Windows outright and I'm not much worse off. Just seems sketchy at first glance.

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14 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

You're funny. Just because it activates has no say whether or not this is a legal copy according to the oppinion of MS.

not funny really 

Go ahead and pay MS full price if you like.

I'll stick to my 25 dollar price and will have all that you have and a bit fatter wallet🙂

Edited by 69th_Panp

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Just an update for those of you accompanying me on my odyssey of discovering deficiencies in computer hardware:

I've done a bit of testing with various methods.

The most systematic was running the Remagen benchmark track posted in the thread in the VR forum. I ran it on my normal settings, minus Vsync and the fps target. Average FPS for that test was 85 fps or so, maxing out at 158, seldom going below 60. the GPU was maxed out for quite a bit of the track, its clear that it was the primary limiter of FPS in that track. However, the CPU got up to full usage more than a few times. It used a pretty consistent 6 GB of RAM.

Testing on Combat Box, with Vsync on and frame target set to 60 fps, things were little different. The GPU was rarely above 50% and maxed out at 75% - its clear that my settings (balanced, high clouds, medium or normal everything else, 70 km view distance) have head room in the raw GPU processing power department. However, GPU memory usage was at nearly 100% for almost half the time. I'm not sure what this implies - I think it means that the GPU memory usage overflows into the RAM? I wonder if this is the cause of my stutters at times. Anyway, its clear that in some way the 1060 is hamstrung by its 3GB memory...with 6GB I would probably have both processing and memory headroom in the GPU.

The CPU, on the other hand, maxed out at 88% overall and two of the cores reached 95%. I think this speaks to live play being more CPU intensive, and mission logic, flight modeling, and AI in a complex MP mission can put a big load on the processor at times (the chart was much spikier, with a lot of ups and downs, for the CPU vs. the GPU).  

The RAM was always very close to full usage. At its lowest point it was just under 6 GB. For most of the time I was playing it was at 7.5 GB or more. Realistically, some of the RAM is held back so that probably represents use of all the RAM in my system...which means the hard drive was being utilized for some memory stuff.

So, TL;DR - conclusions I can draw here:

1. CPU and GPU were not maxed out most of the time in what is normal play for me.
2. GPU has headroom even during intense usage of about 25% - the CPU really does not.
3. the GTX 1060 3GB GPU memory is too small compared to its processing power - it runs out of memory well before it runs out of processing capacity. 
4. Memory is almost certainly a bottleneck and may be the cause of the stuttering and problems I have.
5. Il-2 Sturmovik really needs to put 8GB as its minimum system requirements, I was never below 5 GB even when nothing was happening, at pretty modest settings.


This all confirms that the memory/motherboard/CPU is the likely bottleneck for normal play. What I really want to know now is what the consequences are of maxing out graphics card memory...more research is needed.


 

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