Does Central mind me shooting at chutes ?

[J2_Trupobaw]

Killing chutes is a war crime. Yes, it was not a war crime yet during WW1, just like killing, mutilating, sacrificing, raping or enslaving surrendering enemies and non-combatants was a not a crime through most of human history. I strongly believe that turning FiF into war crime  simulator should be prohibited by event rules.

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

[J2_Bidu]

1 hour ago, US93_Larner said:

An interesting question... 

"My habit of attacking Huns dangling from their parachutes led to many arguments in the mess. Some officers, of the Eton and Sandhurst type, thought it was 'unsportsmanlike' to do it. Never having been to a public school, I was unhampered by such considerations of form. I just pointed out that there was a bloody war on, and that I intended to avenge my pals."

- Ira 'Taffy' Jones, 37 Victories.

 

19:20... an old argument...

[BMA_Hellbender]

18 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

I strongly believe that turning FiF into war crime simulator should be prohibited by event rules.

 

I wonder if marketing FC1 as War Crime Simulator could boost sales.

 

?

 

 

Okay, shooting dudes in chutes is not cool, neither is shooting at an already mortally wounded plane, and it accomplishes nothing of consequence.

 

But in FiF and other dead is dead (for 20 minutes) events, you make sure the dude in question isn't up again 5 minutes later killing your dudes.

 

 

Besides, how are you going to enforce this?

 

"Alright Harry, it looks like you've defeated Lord Voldemort yet again and won the Quidditch World Championship this year, however Draco saw you knock a Slytherin kid off his broom. Gryffindor, minus 50 points. Hufflepuff wins the House Cup!" (we've started reading Harry Potter with the kids)

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

Talbot your too sensitive, never mind you should see my gunner, He hates the Germans so much he'll push his guns right through me shoot the bastards not care about my well being, Ever have the nozzle of a gun pocking through your head and have it go off.  

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

1 minute ago, J5_Hellbender said:

(we've started reading Harry Potter with the kids)

 

Mine just finished Storm of Steel. 

[BMA_Hellbender]

Just now, J28w-Broccoli said:

Mine just finished Storm of Steel. 

 

The Hobbit is next here, then straight on to the Lord of the Rings. That's WWI enough for a (by then) 8 and 10 year old.

[RNAS10_Oliver]

1 hour ago, US213_Talbot said:

AI's don't have streaks....

 

On the subject of shooting down AI parachutes; Something I saw one German do the other week that perhaps was even more odd and pointless was that after having shot down the southern Entente balloon he proceeded to circle around and take out the parachutes from that. Alright sure targeting parachutes from aircraft I can see the reasons behind but targeting parachuting balloon crews? What purpose did that serve other than to waste his ammunition and drop his guard so that I could bounce him in the act. ?

 

1 hour ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

Are you sure their players and not ai? Ai do this constantly and they have better aim than most of us. I personally think the chutes should be taken out of the game, it is a game and not real life, For me any way my virtual pilot may feel differently. Mabey I should ask how he feels. I bet he'll say shoot the chutes Knowing him, a bit of a nasty character almost like a Talbot kind of personality. You know, shoot the chute and watch the bastard splat. lol 

 

Would rather have seen them as an option that one can choose with its own advantages and disadvantages. Chance to survive in your own lines versus more weight etc. And so that mission makers could choose their preference or have their issue reflect the historical background for the mission.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Oliver88

[No.23_Triggers]

56 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

then straight on to the Lord of the Rings. That's WWI enough for a (by then) 8 and 10 year old.

....then the films, then you've made the Peter Jackson connection....then it's onto 8-hour TVAL doccumentaries. Checkmate, offspring. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Admittedly the parachutes annoy me  - it's frustrating to watch a Hun bail out the second he's at serious risk, knowing that if you were in the same situation you'd have to fight to the death! Why should they get a free pass? 

...but, like I said before, there has to be a very good reason for me to pop a chute. 
 

Edited February 10, 2020 by US93_Larner

[No.23_Gaylion]

4 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

 

...but, like I said before, there has to be a very good reason for me to pop a chute. 
 

 

Yeah, like simply seeing one!

[BMA_West]

Thank you all so much to clarify this,

you shoot a chute and qualify for “murderer”,

you shoot a pilot in his plane flying or crashed and you are merely supposed tickling his funny bone,

while overflying trenches where killing and being killed is business as usual.

 

Now this really tickles me too, haha. 

Sure everything is relative and everybody his alternate reality to make life just a bit more bearable.

[No.23_Triggers]

5 minutes ago, US213_Talbot said:

Yeah, like simply seeing one!

Edited February 10, 2020 by US93_Larner

[J2_Bidu]

Maybe the guns should jam more severely. Maybe the engines should fail with no apparent reason. And maybe those parachutes should fail to open more often than not.

 

God knows you're often too wounded to even be able to jump... but even so. We should feel less in control. Hanging by a thread, by a piston, by a cartridge.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Yeah and the vickers should shoot rainbows and the spandaus spit candy canes!

 

 

 

Be it ship, tank, truck, plane its so easy to persuade yourself that you are not killing a man. 

 

But you see that man come out in that chute and you're confronted with why you shied away from joining the infantry.....

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by US213_Talbot

[BMA_Hellbender]

32 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

Admittedly the parachutes annoy me  - it's frustrating to watch a Hun bail out the second he's at serious risk, knowing that if you were in the same situation you'd have to fight to the death! Why should they get a free pass?

 

Depends greatly on the plane, really.

 

The easiest and most effective plane to bail out of (oh boy, here it comes) is obviously the Fokker D.VIIF. The others tend to operate lower and with less margin for error. By the time you should think about bailing, you're either too close to the ground and you might as well ditch, or you're simply too wounded to do so. I think that in my last few months of flying the CL.II, I've bailed out once or twice during combat, and that was always after colliding with a Camel — but not hard enough to get knocked unconscious, which has happened quite a bit more often. As for who's at fault during those collisions: let's say that there's always two parties involved, only one party flies faster, climbs better, turns way tighter, and is a Sopwith Camel.

 

But I digress...

 

Parachutes are one of the main balancing mechanics mission builders have at their disposal, and one of the reasons why it's both historically accurate and "fair" to have most of the action take place over (or very close to) Central lines, paired with the fact that all but one Central machine is slower than its Entente counterparts. Again we have a limited number of D.VIIFs instilling fear, which is perhaps not a bad thing, especially considering that high altitude Flak AAA is completely ineffective.

 

As for shooting down parachutes: fair game, in my opinion. Considering how you can start finishing mission the moment you exit the plane, this gives whoever wants to shoot you down exactly 5 seconds time (on the Flugpark server at least) to line up his shot, potentially even distracting him long enough to get shot by one of your surviving buddies. And as @No56_Waggaz mentioned: there's a slow deploy off-screen Entente parachute as well.

Edited February 11, 2020 by J5_Hellbender

[Waffen84]

I dont play MP much at all and plenty in VR SP but I shoot for the Silk.  I don't want past enemy's gunning for revenge, or their aces shooting down my fellow men or you training future pilots to do the same.  I play for keeps, if I shoot you down I want your life.  I would expect the same from the enemy. 

 

I admit I will lose the alt to see the sob never will return in any way if he's done damage to my squadron. 

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

20 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

but even so. We should feel less in control. Hanging by a thread, by a piston, by a cartridge.

We'd rather see the central hanging by the balls.

[No.23_Triggers]

14 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

there's a slow deploy off-screen Entente parachute as well.

I hate that more than anything else in the game. Really, really lame.  In fact, I wish you could only finish flight once your pilot was on the ground...one way or another. It's just stupid to have parachutes vanishing after 5 seconds, and having Entente pilots jump to "Safety"???

Hey, maybe that's not the worst idea in the world! It would stop pilots with NO PARACHUTES(!!!) jumping from their planes, and would make the Centrals think twice before hitting the silk as, depending on your alt, it could be a while before you reach terra firma. 

Shorter wait if it's Talby that forced you to bail, though!
 

Edited February 11, 2020 by US93_Larner

[No.23_Gaylion]

17 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 @No56_Waggaz mentioned: there's a slow deploy off-screen Entente parachute as well.

 

 

The ol'Lufberry Special...

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

The best part of this conversation is knowing that if the chute-haters had chutes themselves, they would hit the silk too!

[No.23_Gaylion]

Hell yeah why not!?!?!

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

14 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

I wish you could only finish flight once your pilot was on the ground...

 

No this sucks actually.  It used to be that way IIRC.  I seem to remember getting hit by flak in my he111 on WoL, and even at just 3000m it took forever to reach the ground.  I had to leave server to skip the wait.

Edited February 11, 2020 by J28w-Broccoli

[No.23_Triggers]

12 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

No this sucks actually.  It used to be that way IIRC.  I seem to remember getting hit by flak in my he111 on WoL, and even at just 3000m it took forever to reach the ground.  I had to leave server to skip the wait.

EDIT: Hm, yeah, true...still beats the alternative for me. I just don't like stuff magically disappearing, be it planes, pilots, or anything else...

EDIT 2: Loved the first few months of Flugpark where planes stayed and only dead pilots spawned out. Whatever happened to that? 

Edited February 11, 2020 by US93_Larner

[BMA_Hellbender]

Felix Baumgartner wants to know your location.

[J5_HellCat_]

Personally I won't chute kill, the exception being in a tournament with a DiD format that causes a sit out time .....it's hard enough trying for those streaks in pub matches...watching the airframe plummeting to the earth is enough satisfaction for me ........to each his own I guess .. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by HellCat_

[J5_Gamecock]

56 minutes ago, HellCat_ said:

Personally I won't chute kill, the exception being in a tournament with a DiD format that causes a sit out time .....it's hard enough trying for those streaks in pub matches...watching the airframe plummeting to the earth is enough satisfaction for me ........to each his own I guess .. 

^^  What he said.

[No.23_Triggers]

2 hours ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

The best part of this conversation is knowing that if the chute-haters had chutes themselves, they would hit the silk too!

You're damn right!

[JGr2/J5_Hotlead]

3 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

EDIT: Hm, yeah, true...still beats the alternative for me. I just don't like stuff magically disappearing, be it planes, pilots, or anything else...

 

Maybe a change to the game code where if an Entente pilot bails and then exits the server mid-fall to save his life, the game logs him as dead? 

 

As long as we're wishing, I also would like to see a chance for Entente pilots to survive if they slow the plane to stall speed close to the ground (maybe over water?) and then hopped. And also a chance of chute failure for the Germans, like Bidu mentioned. Should even things out a bit more while keeping with historical accuracy for late 1918. 

 

2 hours ago, HellCat_ said:

Personally I won't chute kill, the exception being in a tournament with a DiD format that causes a sit out time .....it's hard enough trying for those streaks in pub matches...watching the airframe plummeting to the earth is enough satisfaction for me ........to each his own I guess .. 

 

Same here. In open servers, it's just a waste of bullets you could use to down other bandits. The guy's shot down, you have the credit, and, even if you chute kill him, he'll respawn and be back in the fray. Pointless, really. In FiF though, all bets are off. Then, it makes strategic sense to chute kill because if you K/O the pilot, that is one less enemy for your mates to contend with. 

 

One thing that I find fairly ironic as far as my own personal experience goes is that I've flown a decent amount of FC multiplayer as a German and I haven't had the chance to bail once to save my life. I'm usually already dead by the time bailing out becomes an option. ?? Kudos to the Allied pilots and their accuracy! 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by JG1_Hotlead_J10

[J2_Drookasi]

1 hour ago, JG1_Hotlead_J10 said:

 

In FiF though, all bets are off. Then, it makes strategic sense to chute kill because if you K/O the pilot, that is one less enemy for your mates to contend with. 

 

 

I believe that the limited amount of available planes already does that.

[US103_Baer]

I haven't seen much evidence of chute shooting online. 

In practice as soon as he bails the victory is credited and attackers switch focus. Who wants to lose SA over a chute? 

 

Badly damaged EA are another story. The reason they still get shot up is to prevent death faking.  Spiralling down to the deck spewing fluids and looking dead as...only to flatten out at 20m and make a dash for home. It happens at least once every week.

Valid tactic of course, but as no-one wants to lose all their altitude unnecessarily, a badly damaged plane whose pilot isn't bailing is gonna get pummeled.

Edited February 11, 2020 by US103_Baer

[J2_Drookasi]

6 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

 I wish you could only finish flight once your pilot was on the ground...
 

 

Amen to that!

[SYN_Ricky]

I am reading Peter Hart's "Bloody April", and just after seeing this topic I came across this passage where Manfred Von Richthofen recalls a fight with 19 Squadron Spads on April 29th. The book doesn't give an explanation about Manfred's apparent change in attitude though... 

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

22 minutes ago, SYN_Ricky said:

I am reading Peter Hart's "Bloody April", and just after seeing this topic I came across this passage where Manfred Von Richthofen recalls a fight with 19 Squadron Spads on April 29th. The book doesn't give an explanation about Manfred's apparent change in attitude though... 

 

 

What a coincidence I was about to pick up  this and post it how chivalrous were those times .

Good books ,I read The Somme , in the middle of that one and bought Aces Falling , great books by Peter Hart.

[J2_Bidu]

8 hours ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

We'd rather see the central hanging by the balls.

 

You'd be surprised.

 

 

[HagarTheHorrible]

Good grief that takes me back, I haven’t heard that in years ?

1 hour ago, SYN_Ricky said:

I am reading Peter Hart's "Bloody April", and just after seeing this topic I came across this passage where Manfred Von Richthofen recalls a fight with 19 Squadron Spads on April 29th. The book doesn't give an explanation about Manfred's apparent change in attitude though... 

 

 

 

 

I suspect MvR would have received a far less “considered” burial, if the above paragraph had been widely known about, at the time, by the RAF pilots.  They may not have disagreed with the sentiments but would no doubt have thought less of him.

[J2_Trupobaw]

10 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

....then the films, then you've made the Peter Jackson connection....then it's onto 8-hour TVAL doccumentaries. Checkmate, offspring. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Admittedly the parachutes annoy me  - it's frustrating to watch a Hun bail out the second he's at serious risk, knowing that if you were in the same situation you'd have to fight to the death! Why should they get a free pass? 

...but, like I said before, there has to be a very good reason for me to pop a chute. 
 

Try chasing down a Brisfit in Dr.I yourself :). In current FiF Germans don't get to pick their fights and weight the risks, so extra insurance is welcome. Even if we chose not to engage you at all and fly away you could chase us down in the Camels.

(Drook and I should not have gone against your flight of 8(?) in two Dr.I at all, and parachutes made it barely feasible. Best we could hope for was to distrupt your bombers, maybe scatter them if we were lucky, before we had to hit the silk, and that's pretty much what happened. Five minutes plus restart on the ground in slower planes meant we were in no position to threaten these Bristols again, unless you had made your return route predictable, which you didn't.

Edited February 11, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[No.23_Triggers]

7 hours ago, JG1_Hotlead_J10 said:

 

Maybe a change to the game code where if an Entente pilot bails and then exits the server mid-fall to save his life, the game logs him as dead? 

 

As long as we're wishing, I also would like to see a chance for Entente pilots to survive if they slow the plane to stall speed close to the ground (maybe over water?) and then hopped. And also a chance of chute failure for the Germans, like Bidu mentioned. Should even things out a bit more while keeping with historical accuracy for late 1918. 

Yeah, both would be cool! I think that actually might be a big part of my issue with parachutes when I think about it - the 'real thing' was a heavy, cumbersome and downright dangerous piece of kit, whereas the FC parachute is totally reliable and totally weightless ;) 

 

1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Try chasing down a Brisfit in Dr.I yourself :). In current FiF Germans don't get to pick their fights and weight the risks, so extra insurance is welcome. Even if we chose not to engage you at all and fly away you could chase us down in the Camels.

(Drook and I should not have gone against your flight of 8(?) in two Dr.I at all, and parachutes made it barely feasible. Best we could hope for was to distrupt your bombers, maybe scatter them if we were lucky, before we had to hit the silk, and that's pretty much what happened. Five minutes plus restart on the ground in slower planes meant we were in no position to threaten these Bristols again, unless you had made your return route predictable, which you didn't.

Well, I admit that I do sympathise with the Dr.I pilot a little more. You can do well in those things, but it certainly aint a cake-walk. 

However, speaking from a purely tactical point of view, we really should have shot both of those chutes. Yes, we stalled your defence of the region, but you were eventually back defending the sector. Before we'd even egressed....I saw you both back in the same spot as we flew home. 

Had we been merciless, there wouldn't have been any air defence left in that sector, and our planes would have been completely free to move through there without worrying about coming under air attack until another scout flight replaced you guys. Which, in turn, would likely have thinned out the scout defences of the Blue team and caused more defensive problems in other sectors of the lines. 

Later on in the map I was attacked by 3 Dr.Is of 1PL and was very quickly wounded with my engine out. They continued to chase me as I tried to dive away, with all three of them firing everything they had at me, in an attempt to finish me off, right until I crashed in the mud. And even while that was happening I wasn't annoyed because I understood that they were just trying to put an enemy pilot out of the session permanently. I've done the same. To me, there's very little difference between that and shooting down a chute. 
 

[J2_Trupobaw]

1 hour ago, US93_Larner said:

However, speaking from a purely tactical point of view, we really should have shot both of those chutes. Yes, we stalled your defence of the region, but you were eventually back defending the sector. Before we'd even egressed....I saw you both back in the same spot as we flew home. 
 
 

From purely tactical point, chutes and some belief in opposition was major factor behind us going in outnumbered, in outclassed planes and separated (and you getting two kills). The final effect without chutes would likely be the same, except our doomed attempt would not happen. Chutes were the single thing in that situation that worked.
 

Quote

Later on in the map I was attacked by 3 Dr.Is of 1PL and was very quickly wounded with my engine out. They continued to chase me as I tried to dive away, with all three of them firing everything they had at me, in an attempt to finish me off, right until I crashed in the mud. And even while that was happening I wasn't annoyed because I understood that they were just trying to put an enemy pilot out of the session permanently. I've done the same. To me, there's very little difference between that and shooting down a chute

. 
Yeah, would have no problem if this happened to me, either. Can't tell where the difference with chute is, perhaps it's because in plane you are still in control at least nominally while in chute you are just a target. But the difference is there.
 

Edited February 11, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[No.23_Triggers]

13 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

From purely tactical point, chutes and some belief in opposition was major factor behind us going in outnumbered, in outclassed planes and separated (and you getting two kills). The final effect without chutes would likely be the same, except our doomed attempt would not happen. Chutes were the single thing in that situation that worked.

No doubt. That's the big advantage of a parachute - you can take a losing fight head-on with some level of confidence you'll survive. It's a big advantage and a valid tactic to be used. Although, honestly, I'm quite surprised that you were so confident that we'd let you sail back down to earth - I was eyeing up both parachutes before a more morally-inclined wingman waved me off. 

IMHO, being a 'nuisance factor' to flights that you likely won't win against, because you know you can bail out and survive, is a perfectly valid tactic. Shooting down said parachutes is another equally valid tactic. Tactics and counter-tactics, and all that...

 

13 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Yeah, would have no problem if this happened to me, either. Can't tell where the difference with chute is, perhaps it's because in plane you are still in control at least nominally. But the difference is there.

The obvious difference to me is the real-world moral implication, and most definitely (at least IMO) the 'disrespect factor'. If you shoot someone down, you've shot them down. If you shoot down their parachute, you've quite brutally and unapologetically executed them. 

It's a brutal and nasty way to do it, but it's a different means to the same end - put the pilot out of the session and weaken the other team. At least for me, shooting chutes in the DiD events is "all business". 

EDIT: Perfectly reasonable to be offended by it as well, though...! 

Edited February 11, 2020 by US93_Larner

[HagarTheHorrible]

Interesting, an aspect I hadn’t considered, far more interesting and nuanced than the normal “moral high ground” argument.

Edited February 11, 2020 by HagarTheHorrible