Panther tank damage model

[Voidhunger]

Hit by T36/76 in the turret roof.

I thought it would be ricochet or destroyed commander cupola or maybe commander/loader/gunner dead,

but no Panther blow up. I wonder if there is possibility at all to have dead crew in the panther.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Voidhunger

[inexus]

It would be extremely useful if there was a debug mode or similar that would allow us to get a better idea about what is happening when the tanks get hit such as hit boxes, damage levels, etc. Probably will never happen...

 

I can see there are a number of debug flags in the config and there are files generated which does have some info in them. Probably only useful for the devs though (snippet below)

 

T:0 AType:15 VER:17
T:3464 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:23551
T:3464 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:24575
T:3464 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:28671
T:3501 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:23551
T:3501 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:24575
T:3501 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:28671
T:3528 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:23551
T:3528 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:24575
T:3528 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:28671
T:3805 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_RUS_76_AP AID:28671 TID:52223
T:3806 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:28671 TID:46079
T:3806 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:28671 TID:47103
T:3806 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:28671 TID:52223
T:3806 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:28671 TID:53247
T:3806 AType:12 ID:62463 TYPE:_PzIV-G_T1 COUNTRY:201 NAME:_PzIV-G_T1 PID:46079 POS(189633.9219,41.7042,245040.3125)
T:3806 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:28671 TID:62463
T:3806 AType:12 ID:63487 TYPE:BotTankPz4G_Commander COUNTRY:201 NAME:BotTankPz4G_Commander PID:62463 POS(189633.6875,41.6791,245040.7813)
T:3806 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:28671 TID:63487
T:3806 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:28671 TID:68607
T:3806 AType:12 ID:77823 TYPE:_PzIV-G_T3 COUNTRY:201 NAME:_PzIV-G_T3 PID:46079 POS(189633.9219,41.7042,245040.3125)
T:3806 AType:12 ID:78847 TYPE:BotTankPz4G_Loader COUNTRY:201 NAME:BotTankPz4G_Loader PID:77823 POS(189634.3906,41.4931,245040.4688)
T:3806 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:28671 TID:78847
T:3872 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:23551
T:3872 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:24575
T:3872 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:28671
T:3893 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:23551
T:3893 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:24575
T:3893 AType:1 AMMO:explosion AID:68607 TID:28671
T:3905 AType:1 AMMO:SHELL_GER_75_HE AID:52223 TID:28671

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Can only confirm this and hopefully this will be taken care of sometime as the panther seem to have a tendency to blowing up from hits that shouldnt penetrate its armour. From that angle it wouldnt have gone through from your pictures.

 

[Voidhunger]

More and more I play with the Panther tank, there is no way to survive when the enemy round enters the tank.

Every time there is catastrophic explosion no matter when the shell penetrate inside. All the crew is of course killed everytime.

You can survive 2 hits into engine area without wounded crew and thats all.

Please, if its possible, let Panther burn, with wounded or killed crew, but to have everytime catastrophic explosion is nonsence IMHO.

 

 

 

[Lofte]

If we will walk this thread - Photothread: Destroyed/Captured Panther tanks, we'll see very few photos of destroyed panters with separated turret. I'd say 5-10% of all photos.

I guess it definetely says that Panthers did not immidietly blew up after first good hit. I think in most cases they just burned out to the ground, like it was with Köln Panther

[Torrens]

I have the image that it was quite rare for tanks to suffer a catastrophic explosion dugin WW2 and this goes for all tanks. It is definately way too common occurance in Tank Crew. They should simply start burning from the inside and flames should come out of the hatches. That Panther example is a perfect illustration that there are still ridiculous things happening with the damage model despite significant improvement over time. I can justify a clean side shot causing it almost every time for the cool factor but Panther getting obliterated from the front by 76mm guns is ridiculous. SU-122 and Su-152 are another story though.

[MarderIV]

Aren't there discrepancies between the actual damage model and the visual damage model? It might be possible we're seeing catastrophic explosions visually yet the underlying damage might have only been similar to what has been mentioned here. 

 

I recall having a discussion about this with regards to visual plane damage models where I pointed out how it was impossible for my flight controls to be working when a wing was clearly hanging off by a thread; and the consensus was that the visual DM didn't reflect what the underlying DM state: That the damage was not severe enough to lose that working part and the visual DM was making it far worse than it looked. 

 

Perhaps crews were being killed and a threshold of module damage was being reached at some point, and the game triggers a catastrophic explosion as a visual effect when it should have done otherwise.

[Lofte]

6 hours ago, MarderIV said:

Perhaps crews were being killed and a threshold of module damage was being reached at some point, and the game triggers a catastrophic explosion as a visual effect when it should have done otherwise.

Main point is that catastrophic explosion should not occur immedietly after penetrate hit. In 95% cases tank should start burn and after some time it should completly burn out or explode. But ONLY AFTER SOME TIME, not right after hit. In most cases this time was enough for crew to abandon tank. Now there is no chance for crew to bail at all!

Another issue - too effective extinguishers. In the game they can extinguish internal fire almost in 100%. IRL in was in 10-20% cases at best, IMO.

If we will look at these pictures we'll see that Panther (just imagine!) can burn with no catastrofic explode

 

       

 

   

   

 

10 hours ago, Torrens said:

I can justify a clean side shot causing it almost every time for the cool factor but Panther getting obliterated from the front by 76mm guns is ridiculous

This happends in most cases if a shell hits lower part of mantlent and rebounds in upper 17-mm hull armor sheet, I guess

But if we'll read this report, there is no mention about some catastrophic consiquences of it. Only driver and radio operator injuring

 

   

Edited June 4, 2020 by Lofte

[Voidhunger]

Also there are pictures of panthers penetrated from sides without evidence(at least visible) of fire at all.

 

The front mantlet ricochet i see ridicuously often, but i have no idea how rare it was. It seems to me, that hits below mantlet to 100mm armor are not modeled. Every hit to lower part on or below the mantlet is ricochet and insta kill.

 

I dont like the engine dmg too. One hit to the engine = smoke, two hits = critical explosion. Its like some arcade game

 

Similar oneshot explosion are in Tiger too. I cant remember if i had dead crew in Tiger.

 

 

Cologne panther survived three hits without explosion and after some of the crew escaped, ammunition started exploding which is clearly visible in the video. Also  I would rather have partly burned tanks or not burned at all than those destroyed 3d models what we have now when the tank explodes. (Partially burned texture would be nice) Cologne panther burned for three days and even after that time it looks better that burned tanks what we have in game.

Its ok when you fly in airplane above, but for tank game it looks  silly.

13 hours ago, Torrens said:

I can justify a clean side shot causing it almost every time for the cool factor

When you play with the panther or tiger its not so cool. Even against it it looks arcadish. Why bother to have modeled dead crew or fire/smoke in tank compartment if you are not able to never see that.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Voidhunger

[Voidhunger]

There is strange dmg modeling in other tanks too. One round often kill all the crew, without fire or ammunition explosion.

Im not saying it was not possible, but I think that often some of the crew manage to escape.

 

There are some accounts of tank kills by AP rounds and hollow charges

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/4th-armoured-brigade-tank-casualties-1945.46671/page-2

[MarderIV]

16 hours ago, Lofte said:

Main point is that catastrophic explosion should not occur immedietly after penetrate hit. In 95% cases tank should start burn and after some time it should completly burn out or explode. But ONLY AFTER SOME TIME

 

I don't disagree on that point. I simply acknowledged how certain discrepancies in the sim's visual and underlying DMs exist even for planes and how that might be playing a part in what we might be seeing here. That instead of the tank burning out in most cases, the sim may have just decided to detonate the thing in front of our eyes, which like you point out could be incorrect.

 

 

[Fritz_Faber]

Tried the Panther in MP, several times the first hit caused an explosion. I like the Panther, but with this (unrealistic) Damage Model it‘s not playable for me. Hopefully this bug will be fixed soon. 

[Voidhunger]

Hi,

please try to look in the damage model if possible, mainly for the german panzers.

Im hit by the enemy shells in the lower part of the gun mantlet resulting in devastating explosion so often in Panther that its not fun. (or tone down the accurancy of the enemy AI to hit the lower part of the gun mantlet)

 

Judging that the chin gun mantlet was not rushed into production until September 1944 and even that, the replacement was gradual, Im guessing that the penetration to the roof by the deflected rounds was not usual.

 

Im quoting some parts of the Thomas L. Jentz book about Panther:

 

 

Lucky hits on the lower half of the original gun mantlet sometimes deflected downward, occasionally defeating the 16mm  deck plate over the driver and radio operator

 

Armor piercing rounds striking the lower part of the gun mantlet had been deflected downward.

Sometimes the roof was penetrated or a large hole was broken in the roof above the driver and radio operator.

 

..the roof armor is too weak. Armor piercing rounds that hit lower part  of the gun mantlet were deflected and penetrated the roof plate.

This resulted in in driver and radio operator  casualties.  (not the explosion of the whole tank)

 

The chin gun matlet designed to deflect the projectiles upward, was introduced starting in December 1944, however this conversion was gradual.

 

and of course every penetrating hits to the sides and back to the Panther, Tiger and Ferdinand resulting in catastrophic explosion of the ammunition.

Only exception is the engine part, when the tank can survive some hits and allow the crew to escape.

 

Thanks

[THERION]

1 hour ago, Voidhunger said:

Im hit by the enemy shells in the lower part of the gun mantlet resulting in devastating explosion so often in Panther that its not fun.

 

Well, this might be not fun, but actually and historically absolutely not impossible. If the shell stroke the lower bow of the gun mantlet,

this very same shell might well detonate between the gun mantlet and the hull roof, which was actually not very thick (~20mm or so),

and therefore could caused devastating damage.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

39 minutes ago, =o=THERION said:

Well, this might be not fun, but actually and historically absolutely not impossible

Although it happens a bit too often in this game and seem to happen most often against shermans at 900-1500 meters range.
 

39 minutes ago, =o=THERION said:

and therefore could caused devastating damage.

The british amde a study of this after and during the war and came to the conclusions it didnt happen that often and when it did happen it was the driver and radio operator positions that would get damaged/injured/killed but very rarely result in the loss of the tank.

[THERION]

1 minute ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Although it happens a bit too often in this game and seem to happen most often against shermans at 900-1500 meters range.
 

The british amde a study of this after and during the war and came to the conclusions it didnt happen that often and when it did happen it was the driver and radio operator positions that would get damaged/injured/killed but very rarely result in the loss of the tank.

 

Well, if we have a look to Shermans, which had casted steel armour and therefore better protection on the roof compared to the Panther tank, I agree that there

would have been driver or radio operator casualties if hatches were open. The Panther had really bad roof protection of the hull, whereas the turret was quite

good protected.

 

If it happens too often in the game, I don't know actually, but it doesn't mean your observations are wrong.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

I will use the pictures and articles that the player Lofte Showed me once earlier with interesting data from british and german studies on the panther.
british report, I guess. Yes, they say that there was some probability to set Panther on fire after such hits. But how often - there is no clear answer on this question. German reports say that these roof penetrates led only to injuring driver and MG-gunner. No mention about exlosions or burnings..
 

[Voidhunger]

9 hours ago, =o=THERION said:

 

Well, this might be not fun, but actually and historically absolutely not impossible. If the shell stroke the lower bow of the gun mantlet,

this very same shell might well detonate between the gun mantlet and the hull roof, which was actually not very thick (~20mm or so),

and therefore could caused devastating damage.

Im ok with that possibility, problem is that its way too often and every time its a catastrophic explosion of ammunition.

Like the author mentioned in his book, even when the round was reflected downwards not always there was penetration of the roof.

 

Its a difference between dead/wounded radio operator and destroyed tank. Even when the driver is killed, you can still shoot and defend yourself.

 

I often see T34 smoking, burning and the gunner is still shooting at me, which is not possible in those 3 german tanks.

 

 

[[KG]Destaex]

Does tacai (which i own) possibly show the damage for playback?

[Lofte]

2 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

Im ok with that possibility, problem is that its way too often and every time its a catastrophic explosion of ammunition.

Yes, IMHO it's like devs go too far with this a bit.

2 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

I often see T34 smoking, burning and the gunner is still shooting at me, which is not possible in those 3 german tanks.

T-34 also explodes too much. The problem common to the game

Spoiler

PS - @[KG]Destaex  - hey buddy, are you a bot?) Looks like you post your random messages without paying attention to the topics)

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Lofte

[Voidhunger]

Just now, Lofte said:

T-34 also explodes too much. The problem common to the game

Im playing now only TC from the Great battles for both sides and majority of T34 are smoking on the battlefield, on the German side all tanks are completely destroyed by explosion with or without turret. In my gameplay russian tanks are not exploding so often and I shot at them multiple times to be shure, but if they tone it down im not against it .

[Lofte]

7 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Im playing now only TC from the Great battles for both sides and majority of T34 are smoking on the battlefield, on the German side all tanks are completely destroyed by explosion with or without turret. In my gameplay russian tanks are not exploding so often and I shot at them multiple times to be shure, but if they tone it down im not against it .

No need to play hard to check it. Just create simple mission in editor and do fire tests..

[Voidhunger]

56 minutes ago, Lofte said:

No need to play hard to check it. Just create simple mission in editor and do fire tests..

Ok, but from normal gameplay i  have not this impression. In this case they need to tone it down in every tank.

[addi]

 

Hello,
I'm a little thoughtful at the moment.
During a quick mission my Panther was destroyed frontally by a T 34 at 1200 meters. Despite all the appreciation of a T34, I think that's very exaggerated.

Edited July 30, 2020 by addi

[Voidhunger]

3 hours ago, addi said:

 

Hello,
I'm a little thoughtful at the moment.
During a quick mission my Panther was destroyed frontally by a T 34 at 1200 meters. Despite all the appreciation of a T34, I think that's very exaggerated.

Check you mission track, it was hit to the lower part of the gun mantlet. It seems that AI is very good at hiting this small part of the tank even at those long ranges.

[LachenKrieg]

Here is a quick look at a Panther closing on a T-34. The T-34 starts to engage at around 1300m, and usually knocks the Panther out between 600 to 500m. In the three runs, that Panther was able to take at least 4 frontal hits. Of course when I am sitting and get hit from the side, the Panther tends to explode pretty easy, and sometimes from very long distances. My hope is that the damage model for all tanks is as accurate as can be. A T-34 supposedly had to get within 500 meters to knock a Tiger out frontally. The sloped frontal armor of the Panther is supposed to offer more protection then a Tiger. Its weak spot was the side armor, which is why PzIV's were usually used to cover the flanks.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by LachenKrieg

[SCG_judgedeath3]

3 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

A T-34 supposedly had to get within 500 meters to knock a Tiger out frontally.

Nahh, a T-34 couldnt penetrate the front armour of the tiger tank from any range frontally, had to go for the side and rear if you want to take out a tiger in the T-34, same for panther if it werent for the shot trap design or hitting the turret armour which is 80mm.

[Goosevich]

2 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Nahh, a *T-34-76* couldnt penetrate the front armour of the tiger tank from any range frontally, had to go for the side and rear if you want to take out a tiger in the *T-34-76*, same for panther if it werent for the shot trap design or hitting the turret armour which is 80mm.

TFTFY

[[KG]Destaex]

On 7/21/2020 at 3:45 PM, [KG]Destaex said:

Does tacai (which i own) possibly show the damage for playback?

I meant TacView. Just tried it and it shows no penetration values and is in fact rather useless for tanks.

I have however just discovered how to record in game to check the penetration values. Sorry for the confusion earlier.

I agree with earlier posters here. Would be great to have a kind of penetration kill cam like War Thunder has for bug hunting.

Edited August 1, 2020 by [KG]Destaex

[Voidhunger]

5 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

or hitting the turret armour which is 80mm.

which is 100mm

[SCG_judgedeath3]

5 hours ago, Goosevich said:

TFTFY

Well we dont have the T-34-85 yet so I could only mean the 76 version in my post

4 hours ago, [KG]Destaex said:

penetration kill cam like War Thunder has for bug hunting.

Please no, that ruins the realism and immersion and makes players know where they got killed from, its not like a simulator should be. Maybe for those who do beta testing but we have recordinhs for that.

2 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

7 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

 

which is 100mm

True, my fault, I think i went after warthunder said, youre right  

[LachenKrieg]

9 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Nahh, a T-34 couldnt penetrate the front armour of the tiger tank from any range frontally, had to go for the side and rear if you want to take out a tiger in the T-34, same for panther if it werent for the shot trap design or hitting the turret armour which is 80mm.

Well not exactly, the up gunned T-34 could supposedly penetrate a Tiger frontally from 500m, but it couldn't defeat the Panther's sloped armor because of the angle of its armor. The Tiger could destroy the same vehicle from 1300m. I apologize for misleading you, but this discussion is not about the Tiger, or the T-34. So if the 85mm gun couldn't penetrate a Panther frontally, then it is not likely that the 76mm gun could either. I thought the question here was whether the damage model of the Panther is accurate.

 

In the video above, I showed that the sides of the Panther can survive if angled, and that the frontal armor can take direct hits. But the in-game T-34 was also able to destroy the Panther at 600m from the front. Lucky shot? I'm moving and changing the angle of attack all the way.

 

Unless you are getting hit from the side or the rear, then what could be causing all the concern? There are two weak spots on the Aufs. D, the drivers visor when open, and the thin hull roof. You are more likely to see a catastrophic explosion by hitting the lower part of the Panther's gun mantlet then you are by penetrating the drivers visor because of ammo storage under the turret. But I agree with the OP of this thread, the Panther's damage model in IL2 seems to be exaggerated. In the video below, I penetrate the Panther's upper front plate from 500m twice in a row. Luck shot?... with a 76mm gun.

 

 

1 hour ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Well we dont have the T-34-85 yet so I could only mean the 76 version in my post

Please no, that ruins the realism and immersion and makes players know where they got killed from, its not like a simulator should be. Maybe for those who do beta testing but we have recordinhs for that.

True, my fault, I think i went after warthunder said, youre right  

If you read my previous post, I said "A T-34 supposedly had to get within 500 meters to knock a Tiger out frontally". I wasn't talking about War Thunder. Like you, I could only mean the 85mm gun.

9 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Nahh, a T-34 couldnt penetrate the front armour of the tiger tank from any range frontally, had to go for the side and rear if you want to take out a tiger in the T-34, same for panther if it werent for the shot trap design or hitting the turret armour which is 80mm.

 

 

Well not exactly, the front of the Panther's turret is 100mm+.

Edited August 1, 2020 by LachenKrieg
Edit for the sake of clarity regarding the gun being used

[[KG]Destaex]

1 hour ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Well we dont have the T-34-85 yet so I could only mean the 76 version in my post

Please no, that ruins the realism and immersion and makes players know where they got killed from, its not like a simulator should be. Maybe for those who do beta testing but we have recordinhs for that.

True, my fault, I think i went after warthunder said, youre right  

I meant to look at in the after battle recordings to see where you got hit and where. For troubleshooting purposes.

[LachenKrieg]

6 hours ago, [KG]Destaex said:

I meant TacView. Just tried it and it shows no penetration values and is in fact rather useless for tanks.

I have however just discovered how to record in game to check the penetration values. Sorry for the confusion earlier.

I agree with earlier posters here. Would be great to have a kind of penetration kill cam like War Thunder has for bug hunting.

How do you do that?

[[KG]Destaex]

Just now, LachenKrieg said:

How do you do that?

All I meant (very tired here) was that you can go to "flight records" in the main menu to watch missions you have pressed ctrl-R to record in to look at the footage of your tank getting hit. That way checking of the rounds should have penetrated or not.

[LachenKrieg]

6 hours ago, [KG]Destaex said:

I meant TacView. Just tried it and it shows no penetration values and is in fact rather useless for tanks.

I have however just discovered how to record in game to check the penetration values. Sorry for the confusion earlier.

I agree with earlier posters here. Would be great to have a kind of penetration kill cam like War Thunder has for bug hunting.

Sorry, I thought you meant you could see penetration values, as in the game provided information regarding where the shot hit and at what angle. 

[[KG]Destaex]

I understood that when it was bolded the first time thanks.

[Voidhunger]

15 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

the sides of the Panther can survive if angled,

 

 

This I wanted from someone who can make test missions in the editor to test that.

If I should face the enemy slightly angled or not. If the game balistics/damage model is capable of this.

 

Also what was the thickness of the side armor of the gun mantlet. Yesterday I was hit by t34 from approx. 1200m at slight angle to the side of the gun mantlet and of course there was instant explosion.

 

but some positive happened I was for the second time wounded in the Panther tank!

Su122 hit me in the turret (probably with HE) and killed the gunner!

[LachenKrieg]

13 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

 

 

This I wanted from someone who can make test missions in the editor to test that.

If I should face the enemy slightly angled or not. If the game balistics/damage model is capable of this.

 

Also what was the thickness of the side armor of the gun mantlet. Yesterday I was hit by t34 from approx. 1200m at slight angle to the side of the gun mantlet and of course there was instant explosion.

 

but some positive happened I was for the second time wounded in the Panther tank!

Su122 hit me in the turret (probably with HE) and killed the gunner!

I think it is safe to say from all the images/video here that the damage model in Tank Crew does take into consideration quite a few things, but like the second video I posted above, or the images you posted at the start of this thread, there are still issues that need to be corrected.

 

There is no way the in-game T-34 should be able to penetrate the upper front plate from 500m, and I can't see why your Panther in the images above exploded. There is a good chance you would have lost your commander, but it is hard to say for sure where on the Cupola the shell would hit. From the image, it looks like there should have been at least some bounce as it hit the top of the mantlet and exhaust fan cover. Its hard to say if it would be enough to clear the Cupola, or just sheer the top off, but explode the tank?

 

Do what ever you can to keep your tanks side out of the enemy's periscope. Placing your tank at a slight angle to the line of fire can help in a lot of situations. Lately, I am also trying to teach myself to focus on the order of enemy fire in relation to my own reload time. The intention is to be able to use this information to help decide if I should move into cover, or wait to take the next shot. 

 

From the information sources I have seen, the mantlet was 110mm, and the turret sides where 45mm.

[Voidhunger]

Again Im not shure if this hit to the panther gun mantlet by 122mm HE shell will cause total destruction of the tank.

It looks like it was deflected to the commanders cupola, but I think in worst scenario, cupola will be shot off and commander killed or the turret roof will collapse killing all the crew in the turret. Not the fatal destruction of the tank.