I have a problem with a scene from 1917 movie - spoiler alert

[TWC_Ace]

If you didnt see a movie yet, dont read this ?. I liked the movie alot (many reasons,) but I would like to talk about one scene from the movie. That is when a german pilot (in Albatros) crashes into the stable (after dogfighting with 2 Sopwith camels?) near the two british soldiers (main characters in the movie). So the two soldiers rescued the german pilot from the burning wreckage. While one of the soldiers is rushing for water the other one is stabbed (long dagger) by wounded german pilot. I mean....wtf? That rarely, if ever happened, much less in WW1 and much less coming from an aviator. The story is partially based on true events but the scene with a german pilot is complete and utter bull****...I wonder why they did it like this...

 

your opinions?

Edited January 29, 2020 by =VARP=Tvrdi

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Probably making the movie more shocking.

Also, a one sided point of view "look how heroic we are and how villain the other guys are".

Makes more sales (or so they think).

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Legioneod]

Simple, to make the enemies look like villains and to cause excitement/drama. War is very rarely good vs bad (ww2 is the only war I can think of that was anywhere near good vs evil) but someone is always considered the bad guy, just depends on what side you're on, it's the same way for storytelling.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Legioneod

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

1 hour ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

If you didnt see a movie yet, dont read this ?. I liked the movie alot (many reasons,) but I would like to talk about one scene from the movie. That is when a german pilot (in Albatros) crashes into the stable (after dogfighting with 2 Sopwith camels?) near the two british soldiers (main characters in the movie). So the two soldiers rescued the german pilot from the burning wreckage. While one of the soldiers is rushing for water the other one is stabbed (long dagger) by wounded german pilot. I mean....wtf? That rarely, if ever happened, much less in WW1 and much less coming from an aviator. The story is partially based on true events but the scene with a german pilot is complete and utter bull****...I wonder why they did it like this...

 

your opinions?

 

I cannot agree more. I think it's high time to stop this lynching of Germans.

[Feathered_IV]

I was talking to my colleagues at work about this today.  The consensus was that the German airman was burned, panicked and raving.  He was well out of his mind in pain and fear and simply lashed out. 

[161snails]

My issue with the film is (and this is not a racist statement, just a statement of fact) is that running through the trenches there seemed to be a few people of colour sitting around, im sure that want the case in the lads battalions during that period (though happy to be corrected)

[BroGrimm1tkcamp]

It was one wounded and scared aviator. To say it could not happen like this is nonsense. It could have happened from either side. I doubt it was to be representative of all aviators. It was a scene in a WAR movie. Everything nowadays must be politically correct. Take it for what it is entertainment!

[TWC_Ace]

46 minutes ago, BroGrimm1tkcamp said:

It was one wounded and scared aviator. To say it could not happen like this is nonsense. It could have happened from either side. I doubt it was to be representative of all aviators. It was a scene in a WAR movie. Everything nowadays must be politically correct. Take it for what it is entertainment!

Yeah it was added for the extra drama. All I was saying It was very unlikely that this would happen even in later wars much less in WW1 and coming from an aviator. He was scared? He was rescued from a burning plane there was a very tiny chance he would expect to be executed and ot act like that....

Edited January 29, 2020 by =VARP=Tvrdi

[SYN_Mike77]

Having never received third degree burns over a large part of my body I'm not sure how I would react. Might I lash out at those trying to save me?  Maybe, I don't know.  

 

Fav line from the movie "Even their rats are bigger than ours!"

[LukeFF]

It's a very natural reaction to being subjected to intense pain and agony. Saw it on more than one occasion during my time working in the ER of a combat support hospital in Iraq.

[Rolling_Thunder]

29 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

It's a very natural reaction to being subjected to intense pain and agony. Saw it on more than one occasion during my time working in the ER of a combat support hospital in Iraq.

Yes but the Germans were are all saints in the 2 world wars. They could never do anything like that.

[TWC_Ace]

1 hour ago, Rolling_Thunder said:

Yes but the Germans were are all saints in the 2 world wars. They could never do anything like that.

Dont make this topic political. It isnt. I would react in the same way if it was a british pilot.

@LukeFF Yeah , I hear you, men are able to do crazy stuff under "not normal conditions in the war".

Edited January 29, 2020 by =VARP=Tvrdi

[Rolling_Thunder]

8 hours ago, =gRiJ=Roman- said:

 

I cannot agree more. I think it's high time to stop this lynching of Germans.

 

8 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

Dont make this topic political. It isnt. I would react in the same way if it was a british pilot.

 

[Finkeren]

I went and saw it last friday. A liked it a lot, and didn't mind the scene with the stabbing at all. I felt it was very clear, that the German acted in confused, agonized desperation - not really understanding, what was going on around him, so he just lashed out. This made the scene all the more tragic and poignant, because it was sooooooo unnecessary. In one second it transformed a moment of genuine humanity and kindness into even more tragedy and pain for no good reason at all. I thought it was quite powerful.

 

What I did mind were the double chase scenes through the ruined town at night. Twice the protagonist is being chased down by a single German soldier, who repeatedly shoots at him from a distance of a few feet while running at full tilt, causing him to miss repeatedly. There is no indication, that these were meant as warning shots to get the protagonist to stop. If the German soldier had stopped for one second to aim properly, our hero would've been dead. The whole thing seemed rather contrived and felt like it was put there purely for dramatic purposes.

[Gambit21]

Edited because I think Luke’s reply is more to the point.

 

 

So consensus is good flick?

I haven’t been too driven to go for some reason... I’ll go this weekend I guess.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Gambit21

[Rei-sen]

6 hours ago, raaaid said:

why cowboys movies represent true americans as villains

Well, at least in some games that's not the case, like in Red Dead Redemption 2, for example.

[Finkeren]

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Edited because I think Luke’s reply is more to the point.

 

 

So consensus is good flick?

I haven’t been too driven to go for some reason... I’ll go this weekend I guess.

 

I would say go see it. It's no masterpiece, but it is solid throughout. Yeah, the plot is ultra-simple and a bit contrived but no more than, say, Saving Private Ryan. 

 

You need to watch it in a cinema though. Its main technically gimmick is quite impressive (if a bit exhausting to watch) on the big screen. Not sure it will translate as well to the small screen. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Finkeren

[Finkeren]

On 1/29/2020 at 12:57 PM, 161snails said:

My issue with the film is (and this is not a racist statement, just a statement of fact) is that running through the trenches there seemed to be a few people of colour sitting around, im sure that want the case in the lads battalions during that period (though happy to be corrected)

 

The British army was not racially segregated (at least not by the time of WW1, but I don't think it ever officially was). Though "colonial" regiments of purely African volunteers were a thing - and these were kept sharply segregated and were often treated with suspicion and disrespect - there was also the occasional Brit of African or Indian descent mixed in with the regular units. The black community in the UK in the 19th and early 20th century was a good deal larger than most people are aware of today. Almost all of them were of course descended from slaves, but by WW1 they were all British citizens and served in the army same as everyone else and were generally not subject to any special regulations. For the same reason, these POC soldiers are largely invisible in the historic scources, because the army did not register people by race, but they do show up in photographs from time to time. 

 

Btw: This is not to say that society back then wasn't grossly racist, and that race relations in Britain were rosy red - not at all. But it wasn't like the US and you would meet the occasional POC serving alongside his white comrades. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Finkeren

[Chief_Mouser]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 8:43 AM, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

If you didnt see a movie yet, dont read this ?. I liked the movie alot (many reasons,) but I would like to talk about one scene from the movie. That is when a german pilot (in Albatros) crashes into the stable (after dogfighting with 2 Sopwith camels?) near the two british soldiers (main characters in the movie). So the two soldiers rescued the german pilot from the burning wreckage. While one of the soldiers is rushing for water the other one is stabbed (long dagger) by wounded german pilot. I mean....wtf? That rarely, if ever happened, much less in WW1 and much less coming from an aviator. The story is partially based on true events but the scene with a german pilot is complete and utter bull****...I wonder why they did it like this...

 

your opinions?

 

What worried me about that scene was not that the German pilot lashed out and stabbed his rescuer, but why was he carrying a bloody great dagger in the first place? All the historical recollections that I've seen tend towards pilots carrying revolvers, in order to shoot themselves if going down in a burning aeroplane. But a knife? Was he going to stab himself to death if that happened? Perhaps he was influenced by the samurai culture of Japan?  Overall a poor if visually stunning film, as I said in the other thread, so I won't lose any sleep over it.

Cheers.

[Finkeren]

2 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

What worried me about that scene was not that the German pilot lashed out and stabbed his rescuer, but why was he carrying a bloody great dagger in the first place? All the historical recollections that I've seen tend towards pilots carrying revolvers, in order to shoot themselves if going down in a burning aeroplane. But a knife? Was he going to stab himself to death if that happened? Perhaps he was influenced by the samurai culture of Japan?  Overall a poor if visually stunning film, as I said in the other thread, so I won't lose any sleep over it.

Cheers.

 

Pretty much all aviators at the time carried a knife. Not as a weapon, but to cut themselves free, in case they became trapped in a wrecked aircraft. 

 

The knife he used looked like a standard issue German bayonet, which was a pretty versatile instrument that was easy to get hold of and came with a sheath (great for not accidentally cutting yourself during flight) 

 

To me it makes a lot of sense, that a WW1 pilot would carry such a knife. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Finkeren

[161snails]

6 hours ago, Finkeren said:

 

The British army was not racially segregated (at least not by the time of WW1, but I don't think it ever officially was). Though "colonial" regiments of purely African volunteers were a thing - and these were kept sharply segregated and were often treated with suspicion and disrespect - there was also the occasional Brit of African or Indian descent mixed in with the regular units. The black community in the UK in the 19th and early 20th century was a good deal larger than most people are aware of today. Almost all of them were of course descended from slaves, but by WW1 they were all British citizens and served in the army same as everyone else and were generally not subject to any special regulations. For the same reason, these POC soldiers are largely invisible in the historic scources, because the army did not register people by race, but they do show up in photographs from time to time. 

 

Btw: This is not to say that society back then wasn't grossly racist, and that race relations in Britain were rosy red - not at all. But it wasn't like the US and you would meet the occasional POC serving alongside his white comrades. 

Thanks Finkeren, that's what I  love about this Forum, you learn something everyday  

[Jaws2002]

It's a Hollywood made movie. What do you expect. Everything coming out of that place is disguised or not so well disguised propaganda.   

 They have orders from their masters. They have to make a certain number of movies every year to tell everyone that German =Bad, Just like they have to make movies about Russian=Bad, or Arab=Bad, or Chinese = Bad.

 

 Hollywood is just an extension of the power apparatus. 

 

And about the knive, this: 

3 hours ago, Finkeren said:

Pretty much all aviators at the time carried a knife. Not as a weapon, but to cut themselves free, in case they became trapped in a wrecked aircraft

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Jaws2002

[Gambit21]

54 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

It's a Hollywood made movie. What do you expect. Everything coming out of that place is disguised or not so well disguised propaganda.   

 They have orders from their masters. 

 

Indeed - although I wish it was as limited as the rest of your post suggested. I’d happily take that over the extent of what’s actually going on.

 

We can barely go see a movie anymore.

This movie seems like a welcome respite from the dark crap they normally put out nowadays. While not the only problem, I can barely get through the horror movie previews that they seem to think I want to see just because I’m at an R rated movie. 

 

The scene as described here doesn’t blip my needle honestly.

 

I’m not yet 50 so Fred Astair was well before my time, but we’re enjoying making our way through his old films. 

 

I’d like to see a good “Band of Brothers” style movie about a Mustang squadron. Maybe the lead falls in love with one of the  Red Cross girls selling coffee on the base...  

 

Looking forward to Top Gun, fingers crossed there’s no predictable “and there it is!” moment of revulsion.

[Amiral_Crapaud]

14 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

What worried me about that scene was not that the German pilot lashed out and stabbed his rescuer, but why was he carrying a bloody great dagger in the first place? All the historical recollections that I've seen tend towards pilots carrying revolvers, in order to shoot themselves if going down in a burning aeroplane. But a knife? Was he going to stab himself to death if that happened? Perhaps he was influenced by the samurai culture of Japan?  Overall a poor if visually stunning film, as I said in the other thread, so I won't lose any sleep over it.

Cheers.

Well,
Unfortunate John Waldron never got to use it after this photo for sure, but as you can see it was considered sufficiently useful to be part of the gear

 

]

 

Ok, granted, he had Indian blood ^^ Still, not necessarily an uncommon sight. With the generalization of parachutes in WW2, or in PTO over large areas of water, I suspect it was even of a more common use than in WW1.

[Dakpilot]

On 1/30/2020 at 10:55 PM, Jaws2002 said:

It's a Hollywood made movie. What do you expect. Everything coming out of that place is disguised or not so well disguised propaganda.   

 They have orders from their masters. They have to make a certain number of movies every year to tell everyone that German =Bad, Just like they have to make movies about Russian=Bad, or Arab=Bad, or Chinese = Bad.

 

 Hollywood is just an extension of the power apparatus. 

 

And about the knive, this: 

 

 

The film is pretty much non Hollywood 

 

Made in Britain, British writer /director 

British producers, British cinematographer, written from directors grandfather's memoirs, US distributor. 

 

I think it is fair to say it was a British production 

 

Think you are barking up the wrong tree 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[Lusekofte]

On 1/29/2020 at 3:53 PM, SYN_Mike77 said:

Having never received third degree burns over a large part of my body I'm not sure how I would react. Might I lash out at those trying to save me?  Maybe, I don't know.  

 

Fav line from the movie "Even their rats are bigger than ours!"

It would disable you and it would kill you if not treated. And even then it wont guarantee survival

btw thanks for the headup spoiler alert. I read it anyway. Wish I didn’t

Edited February 3, 2020 by LuseKofte

[SYN_Mike77]

5 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

It would disable you and it would kill you if not treated. And even then it wont guarantee survival

btw thanks for the headup spoiler alert. I read it anyway. Wish I didn’t

So there is a thread marked spoiler alert, don't read if you haven't seen 1917.  You read down to the ninth post in that thread and that's the one that spoiled if for you?  Ok, sure, sorry?

[ST_Catchov]

Well, he'd had a bad day. Attacked by a couple of camels and crashed in a flaming wreck. But yeah it is odd that an aviator would try to kill their enemy …. in a war of all things. It's unheard of. Yes, the PBI were trained to thrust, twist and yank their bayonets from the enemies guts …. but an aviator. Good Lord it's beyond the pale.

 

Fighter pilots were just trained to shoot their opponents in the back. 

 

This movie sounds like a load of old cobblers. If only it had been made in Hollywood with Tom Cruise ……..

[Cybermat47]

If I’d just been trying to kill two Brits, got set on fire by them, then got my burnt body dragged out of my ruined plane by two more Brits with rifles, and heard one of them say “we should just put him out his misery”, I’d probably be scared enough to try and stab both of them and escape.

[Lusekofte]

10 hours ago, SYN_Mike77 said:

So there is a thread marked spoiler alert, don't read if you haven't seen 1917.  You read down to the ninth post in that thread and that's the one that spoiled if for you?  Ok, sure, sorry?

Ha ha. Curiosity is a bitch. I said that to the op not you.  And blame only myself no one else. Sorry if you understood it in any other way

[SYN_Mike77]

10 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Ha ha. Curiosity is a bitch. I said that to the op not you.  And blame only myself no one else. Sorry if you understood it in any other way

No porblem, I've made that same mistake myself!

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I looked at the rescue/stabbing scene this way.  It is the duty of captured soldiers to escape.  The airman most likely knew he was close to his lines.  He would have thought he would be taken back to British lines, therefore he tried to escape.  Under those circumstances I could see this happening.  On a human level he owed his life to those Brits but on a military level he owed them nothing.  Not the most brilliant attempt but hey, it's a movie.

[161snails]

When it comes to human nature, we can do some pretty random stuff to each other.

to argue that he would or wouldnt do that doesnt make any sense. My experiance as a medic in recent conflicts, is that when the brown stuff hits the fan..logic and reason (with regards casualties) goes out of the window.

 

If there is one thing ive learnt is that Humans are predictibly un-predictable