P-40E vs. Hurricane Mk.II

[Diggun]

Whole war. Research quoted in Derek Robinson's excellent 'Invasion 1940', based on an analasys of every single RAF a2a combat report (historians are a hoot at parties) . I think it's attributable to a few factors. 

 

1. BoB was by far the most intensive a2a warfare the raf took part in during the war. 

 

2. Hurricanes were regularly dispatched to far flung theatres before spits. 

 

3. Americans start showing up just as Hurricanes are being withdrawn from 1st line service, sharing the burden of a2a combat with the spitfire boys (and stealing all their girlfriends with chocolate and nylons). 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Diggun

[=621=Samikatz]

9 minutes ago, Diggun said:

 

3. Americans start showing up just as Hurricanes are being withdrawn from 1st line service, sharing the burden of a2a combat with the spitfire boys (and stealing all their girlfriends with chocolate and nylons). 

 

And half the Luftwaffe, terrified of the Hurricane's mighty power, fled to Russia to escape its wrath

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

And half the Luftwaffe, terrified of the Hurricane's mighty power, fled to Russia to escape its wrath

"Well Hans, it is cold as balls here in the Murmansk region, but at least we are clear of those Hurricanes!"
"Quiet, Frans. Do you hear something over to the east? Sounds like a Merlin!"
"Don't be ridiculous, Hans! Where the hell would the Russians get Hurricanes? No, we are perfectly safe now."

Edited January 29, 2020 by RedKestrel
spelling

[Diggun]

21 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

And half the Luftwaffe, terrified of the Hurricane's mighty power, fled to Russia to escape its wrath

 

17 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

"Well Hans, it is cold as balls here in the Murmansk reason, but at least we are clear of those Hurricanes!"
"Quiet, Frans. Do you hear something over to the east? Sounds like a Merlin!"
"Don't be ridiculous, Hans! Where the hell would the Russians get Hurricanes? No, we are perfectly safe now."

I'm out of reactions for today, but this exchange made me snort tea out my nose. ?

[MikhaVT]

15 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

I'd fly the hurricane all day long considering the Alison is glass, the p40 seems to be unstable and bleeds speed really fast. 

True, but that's like 90% of the P-40's charm! Question: Do you keep the P-40's cowel flaps in the normal position? with those open it really bleeds speed.

 

I think there are some issues with the P-40's modeling. I've taken cooling system hits several times, and watched the coolant leak out until i stopped trailing coolant. At that point it still doesnt have any cooling issues. Also the left panel says to not open the cowling flaps above a certain speed, but we dont have problems with that like the A-20 has when opening its top cowling flaps. 

 

27 minutes ago, Diggun said:

3. Americans start showing up just as Hurricanes are being withdrawn from 1st line service, sharing the burden of a2a combat with the spitfire boys (and stealing all their girlfriends with chocolate and nylons). 

I had read an interesting story about early-war US pilots stationed in the U.K. Several things i've read (Including the book Fly For Your Life) have mentioned issues with early-war US breathing systems freezing up at high altitudes (this one had a rubber bladder that one exhaled into, so the condensation from a pilot's breath would freeze requiring the pilot pump the mask by hand according to Robert Tucker). I had read that many US troops would trade their 1911s to U.K. pilots for their oxygen masks, then jerry-rig them to work with the US aircraft. 

[gimpy117]

1 hour ago, Kataphrakt said:

True, but that's like 90% of the P-40's charm! Question: Do you keep the P-40's cowel flaps in the normal position? with those open it really bleeds speed.

 

I think there are some issues with the P-40's modeling. I've taken cooling system hits several times, and watched the coolant leak out until i stopped trailing coolant. At that point it still doesnt have any cooling issues. Also the left panel says to not open the cowling flaps above a certain speed, but we dont have problems with that like the A-20 has when opening its top cowling flaps. 

 

i usually run them at like 20% keeping close or a little below that green line. I mean bleeding speeds in the turns. the 109 can out turn a p-40. I know the p-40 is a heavy beast, but I've always thought either the P-40 is under modeled or the 109 is a UFO 

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

Hard to say. Both were great workhorse type aircraft. The Spitfires and Mustangs got a lot of the credit and glory, but the Hurricanes and P40s did a lot of the hard, gritty work. We had vintage P51 and P40 aircraft visit our local airport earlier this year - I've never seen them in-person before (we have a WW1-themed airfield locally, but not much in the way of WW2 flying aircraft). The P51 was impressive, but I was more drawn to the P40 in the way one is drawn to an old Jeep or pickup truck - it had that rougher, utilitarian element. [We also had a B25 visit - really wonderful airplane. It's hard to believe they ever found a way to launch those from a carrier.]

 

The IL2 P40 modeling that we have seems kind of weedy and clunky. My understanding of the P40's actual performance was that it certainly was middling, but that it was a rugged and viable all-purpose fighter/attacker that did a lot of the workhorse duties for the USAAF and the RAF. If you take the IL2 P40 into MP, it doesn't seem to do all that well, at least I've had no luck with it online.

[gimpy117]

4 minutes ago, Krispy_Duck said:

The IL2 P40 modeling that we have seems kind of weedy and clunky. My understanding of the P40's actual performance was that it certainly was middling, but that it was a rugged and viable all-purpose fighter/attacker that did a lot of the workhorse duties for the USAAF and the RAF. If you take the IL2 P40 into MP, it doesn't seem to do all that well, at least I've had no luck with it online.

 

oh I totally agree, the P-40 was never know to be a thoroughbred, but the current aircraft feels kind ham fisted a clunky unstable aircraft that turns like a brick with an engine on the front that feels like it's apt to explode at any minute.

 

I know, inferior soviet gasoline yada yada...but we've all heard the reports of the English running the Alison at 50" HG for like 15 min with no ill effects. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

You should be able to run 40 inches of manifold till the fuel tanks run dry with no ill effects.  Now, if you exceed 39 inches you go into "combat" power with a 15 minute hard limit.

 

With proper engine limits, as used by real pilots in real combat conditions, the P40 would show her true capabilities.

 

Be sure.

[MikhaVT]

45 minutes ago, gimpy117 said:

oh I totally agree, the P-40 was never know to be a thoroughbred, but the current aircraft feels kind ham fisted a clunky unstable aircraft that turns like a brick with an engine on the front that feels like it's apt to explode at any minute.

 

I know, inferior soviet gasoline yada yada...but we've all heard the reports of the English running the Alison at 50" HG for like 15 min with no ill effects. 

 

31 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

You should be able to run 40 inches of manifold till the fuel tanks run dry with no ill effects.  Now, if you exceed 39 inches you go into "combat" power with a 15 minute hard limit.

 

With proper engine limits, as used by real pilots in real combat conditions, the P40 would show her true capabilities.

 

Funny this came up with perfect timing. I was digging through some old manuals for the P-40 i found and just posted links to them here: 

 

[=621=Samikatz]

Obviously what we need are those P-40s the Soviets ripped the engines out of and replaced them with spare 105s from Yaks

[MikhaVT]

2 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

Obviously what we need are those P-40s the Soviets ripped the engines out of and replaced them with spare 105s from Yaks

Please tell me you have pictures of this, i need it!

[=621=Samikatz]

4 minutes ago, Kataphrakt said:

Please tell me you have pictures of this, i need it!

 

It's not pretty, but this is apparently one conversion...

 

 

 

[Elem]

3 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

It's not pretty, but this is apparently one conversion...

Notice too that it was the P-40K with the broad vertical stab.

[INVADER_WARHAWK]

According to ww2 pilot Barry Davis, the P 40 could make a novice piloted P 51 look outclassed.

the P 40 certaintly had a lot more to offer than the in sim model .

cant wait for the TFS P-40 rated at 56 Hg inches !

[MikhaVT]

43 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

It's not pretty, but this is apparently one conversion...

 

 

 

well OFC it's not pretty, it's beautiful! 

[LukeFF]

All of the P-40s retrofitted with a Soviet engine were on the Leningrad front. As I recall reading, the change really didn't bring about any improvement in the P-40's performance.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

7 hours ago, Krispy_Duck said:

The IL2 P40 modeling that we have seems kind of weedy and clunky. My understanding of the P40's actual performance was that it certainly was middling, but that it was a rugged and viable all-purpose fighter/attacker that did a lot of the workhorse duties for the USAAF and the RAF. If you take the IL2 P40 into MP, it doesn't seem to do all that well, at least I've had no luck with it online.

 

It's great for chopping up 111's and 88's, with more than enough ammo, and good enough ballistics that you can spray and pray outside of effective gunner range and take them out pretty reliably.

[Lusekofte]

15 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

You should be able to run 40 inches of manifold till the fuel tanks run dry with no ill effects.  Now, if you exceed 39 inches you go into "combat" power with a 15 minute hard limit.

 

With proper engine limits, as used by real pilots in real combat conditions, the P40 would show her true capabilities.

 

Be sure.

One of biggest frustrations

13 hours ago, INVADER_WARHAWK said:

According to ww2 pilot Barry Davis, the P 40 could make a novice piloted P 51 look outclassed.

the P 40 certaintly had a lot more to offer than the in sim model .

cant wait for the TFS P-40 rated at 56 Hg inches !

According to pilots flying in shows. Low altitude the maneuverability, agility of the P 40 and speed match and exceed P 51. It is not a bad ac

[MikhaVT]

15 hours ago, LukeFF said:

All of the P-40s retrofitted with a Soviet engine were on the Leningrad front. As I recall reading, the change really didn't bring about any improvement in the P-40's performance.

At least in-game, fitting the P-40 we have with the engine from the Yak-1 would boost the continuous power from 900 hp to 1240 hp. Assuming the engines weigh the same, this would boost the PWR of the P-40E to 242 kw/ton from the current 176 kw/ton we have right now -- that'd be a 37.5% increase in PWR which is substantial. We would be trading out the maximum "Verboten!" power of 1470 hp though (287 kw/ton) for less engine management. If what others have said on this forum about the P-40E's engine being limited by pre-war standards it would make sense though that IRL accounts dont see any improvement in performance. 

[Notclear]

2 hours ago, Kataphrakt said:

At least in-game, fitting the P-40 we have with the engine from the Yak-1 would boost the continuous power from 900 hp to 1240 hp. Assuming the engines weigh the same, this would boost the PWR of the P-40E to 242 kw/ton from the current 176 kw/ton we have right now -- that'd be a 37.5% increase in PWR which is substantial. We would be trading out the maximum "Verboten!" power of 1470 hp though (287 kw/ton) for less engine management. If what others have said on this forum about the P-40E's engine being limited by pre-war standards it would make sense though that IRL accounts dont see any improvement in performance. 

 

The P40 were probably equiped with M-105P 1050hp (780kw) and not the M-105Pa as you suggest.

Don't forget russians pilots used theirs P40 usually on combat mode, Allison engine developped 1150hp on that way. The propeller was changed too for a VISh-61p.

In any case, Klimov P-40s were less performing, and lost 12km/h on max speed, on those equipped with Allison engines.

[CanadaOne]

The Hurricane.

 

12 x .303 and steep dives onto the cockpits of German bombers, filling them with, as one German pilot said in a documentary, "a shower of bullets".

 

Used to do it all the time in the original IL2. Great fun!

[PatrickAWlson]

23 hours ago, INVADER_WARHAWK said:

According to ww2 pilot Barry Davis, the P 40 could make a novice piloted P 51 look outclassed.

the P 40 certaintly had a lot more to offer than the in sim model .

cant wait for the TFS P-40 rated at 56 Hg inches !

 

That's kind of true for any plane.  Novice tendency is yank and bank.  If you have a plane that is all about things other than horizontal turn rate then you need to fly it differently, otherwise you are flying to your enemies strengths.  P-51 could turn well enough but that was not its strong suit, so yeah, fly a P-51 badly and you get shot down by a P-40.

[gimpy117]

On 1/25/2020 at 3:14 PM, Bremspropeller said:

We're still missing the coolest version of the Hurricane.

 

i see your rockets and raise you a rear gunner 

 

 

also, another shot of the Kilmov p-40

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by gimpy117

[Diggun]

So a 12 gun hurri firing 12x. 303 brownings at 1,200 rpm each is throwing 240 rounds down range per second! Even if they're only tiny ikkle bullets that's still a whole lot of them! 6.3lb (ish) of lead (about the same as a nice, plump pineapple) should poke a decent-ish hole in the dastardly foe if you clock them at convergence, right? 

[BlitzPig_EL]

They are still only rifle caliber projectiles.  I'd dump them for 2 20mm, or even 4 .50 Brownings every time, though I'd rather have six .50s.   Rifle caliber weapons as primary fighter armament is a hold over from the Great War, and should have been dumped for heavier weapons in the mid 1930s.

[Diggun]

@BlitzPig_EL, entirely agree with you, but lets not get the troops morale down hey?

 

Still I guess if we didn't enjoy ice-skating up hill we wouldn't be flying early war russian anyway right?? ?

Edited January 31, 2020 by Diggun

[BlitzPig_EL]

Indeed sir.

 

The 12 gun Hurri is probably the ultimate manifestation of the "spray and pray" aerial gunnery dictum.  It is also very understandable for it's time frame.  The .303 was indeed found wanting in the anti-bomber role, so, with no readily available alternative all you can do is add more guns.  The RAF never really seemed to warm up to the .50 Browning heavy machine gun, only putting 2 on later Spitfires, and even going so far as to order their removal from RAAF Spits that had been field modified to take the M2 Browning. 

[RedKestrel]

4 hours ago, Diggun said:

So a 12 gun hurri firing 12x. 303 brownings at 1,200 rpm each is throwing 240 rounds down range per second! Even if they're only tiny ikkle bullets that's still a whole lot of them! 6.3lb (ish) of lead (about the same as a nice, plump pineapple) should poke a decent-ish hole in the dastardly foe if you clock them at convergence, right? 

For real pineapple throwing, I believe we will have to purchase the Yak-9T.