DCS

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

 

...so we can really recreate and feel (of)

 

 

That sentence and DCS/WWII just don't go together.

 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

 

Zero means you can also recreate The Final Countdown now.   You just have to pretend that the Japanese were bombing Las Vegas. 

[Gambit21]

The funny thing is that Great Battles has a head-start on DCS with regard to the Pacific, even if they haven't started yet.

[Ribbon]

6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

That sentence and DCS/WWII just don't go together.

 

 

Pretty much, they are all over the place.

I won't make the same mistake i did with Normandy modules (alas only Spit was worth).

I won't rush for it, i'll wait and see, i'm fan of scenery rather than individual plane.

If they make map, carrier/fleet, few fighters/f-bombers and at least one torpedo operated plane i'm in no matter the cost.....so i have 5-10years to decide?

12 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

A Pearl Harbor map for the Zero and Corsair to fight over is probably almost ready.

 

3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Zero means you can also recreate The Final Countdown now.   You just have to pretend that the Japanese were bombing Las Vegas. 

Wouldn't be suprised heh!

[Feathered_IV]

I notice that’s an early model A6M2.  Not exactly an ideal match for the Corsair.  But why start now I suppose.  

[Alexmarine]

4 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I notice that’s an early model A6M2.  Not exactly an ideal match for the Corsair.  But why start now I suppose.  

 

The devs confirmed it should be an A6M5, check @EAF_Ribbon post.

 

In any case the A6M2 were used far longer than new models were introduced, especially in the fighter-bomber and the "special attack" role. Even at the Phillipine Sea several Japanese carriers had them in place of their usual dive bombers because the D3A were scarce and the D4Y couldn't operate on some of them

[Feathered_IV]

Thanks.  Viewing the small image on my phone, the prominent gun troughs on the cowling and the lack of wing armament made it look like a model 21

[Taxman]

BTW also included in the latest update are pictures of the new WW11 aircraft damage models, it does look good but for the rest?  Oh I know in another 10 years maybe.

[SCG_OpticFlow]

Wing Flex:

 

 

[Lusekofte]

I flew the I 16 for the first time in VR. I must say DCS scale and pilot pow is much better in DCS

A absolute treat flying. I think I flew instant action 3 hours last night with it, killing humwees and other modern vehicles. 
It simply have no place but I love it

[Monostripezebra]

6 hours ago, No.322_LuseKofte said:

I flew the I 16 for the first time in VR. (..)
It simply have no place but I love it

 

I can totally relate.. I bought the I-16 and love the module, as it is really nicely done and super fun to fly, it is just that it is so pointless in what the rest of DCS has... Or as someone jokingly said: now you can finally play the traditional war thunder scenarios of early war russian planes defending Normandy from the british invasion.. ;=)

 

Still no regrets, the I-16 is very enjoyable.

[Monostripezebra]

 

[Rei-sen]

I'm a bit disappointed by the results. I hope devs will fix those issues soon.

[Trooper117]

Very interesting video... and food for thought!

[SYN_Vander]

I hope he used the same amount of fuel for each plane and didn’t just set both DCS and IL to 100% !

[ZachariasX]

7 hours ago, SYN_Vander said:

I hope he used the same amount of fuel for each plane and didn’t just set both DCS and IL to 100% !

He used corresponding fuel amounts.

 

This video is also discussed in the P-51 FM thread.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I agree with the IL-2 P-51 having oversensitive elevator control.  IMO so do the Spitfires in-game as well.  

[ZachariasX]

25 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

I agree with the IL-2 P-51 having oversensitive elevator control.  IMO so do the Spitfires in-game as well.  

I find the real Spit having an extremely sensitive elevator. It is not harmonized at all with the ailerons for larger stick deflections in maneuvering. It is like if you installed cams in your joystick such that pulling requires less than a quarter of the force required for rolling. It was surprisingly difficult initially to make her nose quickly pointed where you want. You need to retrain your muscle memory to do so. But once you get the hang of it, it's easy. In this sense I find the in game Spitfire asks for a similar adjustment and feels reasonably similar in flight (as much as it can, lacking stick forces and geometry). It is of note that moving the elevator does not in any way cause the plane to oscillate. I don't think it is the weak point.

 

I would much prefer if the devs took a closer look at trim and attitude over the speed range (and flaps settings in some planes).

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

I find the real Spit having an extremely sensitive elevator. It is not harmonized at all with the ailerons for larger stick deflections in maneuvering. It is like if you installed cams in your joystick such that pulling requires less than a quarter of the force required for rolling. It was surprisingly difficult initially to make her nose quickly pointed where you want. You need to retrain your muscle memory to do so. But once you get the hang of it, it's easy. In this sense I find the in game Spitfire asks for a similar adjustment and feels reasonably similar in flight (as much as it can, lacking stick forces and geometry). It is of note that moving the elevator does not in any way cause the plane to oscillate. I don't think it is the weak point.

 

I would much prefer if the devs took a closer look at trim and attitude over the speed range (and flaps settings in some planes).

 

I see your point.  Thank You for sharing your experience.  

 

For me, the 51 feels almost copy/pasted from the Spitfire elevator response.  I admit, I'm on the fence about how I feel with these two planes.  I have found that if I ignore the preset-at-spawn trim settings for the 51 and zero them out, then set the yaw trim like the RL settings the video's creator gives, taking off and getting the plane trimmed for (mostly) hands-free flight seems easier.  I totally ignore the trim wheels/tech chat and go on feel and the slip bubble.  After that, the plane feels like it's a performer.  I can stay smooth and feather-touch the controls to get what I want from it.  

(I use as little sensitivity setting on my control axes as possible and since it seems that deadzone is the real cause of "control/rudder wobble" I use 0%.)

 

Otherwise, if I don't take the first 5 minutes or so after takeoff to 'settle in' to flying the plane and get it trimmed, it feels lethargic speed and acceleration-wise and also feels like Jello during an earthquake.  I can't just jump into instant action with it.  

 

The Spitfire is almost the same except, I don't actually know the RL trim settings for takeoff.  If you could relay them here, I would certainly be grateful.  I'd like to try them. 

I kind of just seat-of-the-pants it off the runway with the developer-preset on-spawn trims but, I press the Reset All Trims button once I'm in the air and start working it into a stable setting from there.  

 

P.S. I really wish the devs would give us the option to spawn in with the trim presets set at neutral so I could dial them in myself. It's just a pain to remember to set it all at zero every time.  All the planes start on the spawn point with "at best speed" trim already set. It makes the planes harder to fly than they should be If you leave them unchanged. 

[ZachariasX]

2 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

The Spitfire is almost the same except, I don't actually know the RL trim settings for takeoff.  If you could relay them here, I would certainly be grateful. 

I don't think I can help you there too much (I think the gane doesn't exactly reflect the real aircrafts trim, as you can see on the elevator position), but you can find that out yourself rather easily. Takeoff trim is the trim for the climb once you leave the ground.

 

So just spawn midair at low altitide and then use your climb setting (e.g. +8 or +12 boost, 2850 rpm, or whatever you  like) and trim it to climb hands off at your desired climb speed and note down the trim "%" for rudder and elevator. You the set them before takeoff.

 

In flight, the Spit is very easy reagarding trim. Once you level out and go for cruise, trim the elevator until she's hands off and then do the same with ethe rudder trim for the "turn&bank" needle to cernter. The Spit hardly requires re-trim unless you're climbing or diving at high power. Basically you do the re-trim once and you're good and you are free to look outside. For landing when deploying gear and flaps, you'll trim her again.

[unreasonable]

2 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

 

The Spitfire is almost the same except, I don't actually know the RL trim settings for takeoff.  If you could relay them here, I would certainly be grateful.  I'd like to try them. 

 

By the book, trim for take off is "One division nose down" for elevator, which corresponds to one tick above the middle of the indicator, neutral is not the middle of the scale but half way up.   "Fully Starboard" for rudder.  Or just watch Requiem:

 

 

Given that our Spitfires always feel oddly nose heavy I am not sure that the results in the game mirror RL very well, but you can take off well enough like this. 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Maybe this excess trim is a feature or bug in the general FM that needs to be checked? Not just for one plane. All the IL-2 planes seem to fly nose up rather than level or even slightly nose down(like P51 or Bf109 among others). Very informative video, thanks for sharing.

[Lusekofte]

On 12/13/2019 at 3:18 AM, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Zero means you can also recreate The Final Countdown now.   You just have to pretend that the Japanese were bombing Las Vegas. 

Your lack of imagination surprise me. 
Have you not seen the movie about carrier Nimitz going in a thunderstorm and being brought back to 1942. 
It is a real shame. The I 16 was for me a real treat. Maybe the best ww 2 plane expirience I had to date

[BraveSirRobin]

19 minutes ago, No.322_LuseKofte said:

Your lack of imagination surprise me. 
Have you not seen the movie about carrier Nimitz going in a thunderstorm and being brought back to 1942. 
It is a real shame. The I 16 was for me a real treat. Maybe the best ww 2 plane expirience I had to date

 

Um...   That movie was The Final Countdown.

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Um...   That movie was The Final Countdown.

Oh I saw it and buried it my non working brain area hoping never ever to be reminded of it. 
So umh Yea you got me. 
DCS ww2 modules are more a fsx addon than a game.  Correction it is more a add on and not a game

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

9 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

I don't think I can help you there too much (I think the gane doesn't exactly reflect the real aircrafts trim, as you can see on the elevator position), but you can find that out yourself rather easily. Takeoff trim is the trim for the climb once you leave the ground.

 

 

If you're talking about the vertical trim indicator, I did think it was odd that neutral setting was indicated 2 notches above center.  I find that using max continuous with 0 pitch and just trimming out the rudder works very well.  I know, I know... combat power - 1 hour.....  But, since some things in-gam seem to be "make your own procedure", I do it that way.   

Thanks for the tips though.  

 

6 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

By the book, trim for take off is "One division nose down" for elevator, which corresponds to one tick above the middle of the indicator, neutral is not the middle of the scale but half way up.   "Fully Starboard" for rudder.  Or just watch Requiem:

 

 

Given that our Spitfires always feel oddly nose heavy I am not sure that the results in the game mirror RL very well, but you can take off well enough like this. 

 

The "by the book" setting is what I was interested in knowing, so thank you.  

Requiem's videos are very helpful but, I was surprised that he chose to demonstrate trim settings and takeoff procedure for a 3-point takeoff in the P-51 video.  

It seems to me all the planes feel nose heavy until I set the pitch trim to 0, then I adjust it as I pick up speed.  Like I said, the planes come off the spawn trimmed nose-down and with whatever aileron and rudder trim that may apply for max cruise speed.  The I-16, which has no trim, is just nose-heavy but the closer you get to top speed, the more it seems to equalize. 

[unreasonable]

I agree about the nose heaviness in general: either some CGs are fractionally off, or the down wash force on the tail surfaces is a little too low: or perhaps it is just an artifact of our joysticks. Either way, I have always felt that flying the Spitfire in particular should feel a bit more like the FC Camel, with forwards pressure required for level flight at all but the lowest speed. As it is I spend the entire flight with back pressure unless you put in full tail heavy trim, which just seems unsatisfying.  

[MeoW.Scharfi]

i find the part "interesting" where he says the nose picture is too high in il2 while he is leaning upwards all the time in the il2 P51 and not a little bit in dcs. ?‍♀️ 

 

And the DCS P51 feels way more sensitive in elevator than the IL2 one. The flight model feels in dogfights similiar in dcs and il2.

[Jade_Monkey]

They should definitely try tweaking these details but i feel like the video focused on the least relevant parts of the FM.

[Art-J]

@Scharfi - You mean leaning forward, or raising upwards  ? In either case it's irrelevant - if seat height is comparable, airframe attitude and thus position of nose cowling vs horizon line should be similar in both sims, at least at similar cruising speeds. I believe it's not that bad in Il-2 at high speeds. Gets worse at low speeds, though, especially with flaps. All Il-2 planes I tried so far required higher AoA when doing complete landing pattern, compared to other sims on the market so it seems to be general characteristic of FMs here.

 

@JM - he commented only on the aspects he could compare to the real deal and I'm very glad he did that. Nothing less, nothing more. Relevance of the comparison depends on whether individual player pays more attention to the combat experience offered by this sim, or flight experience. That's always a subjective matter, though.

[BornToBattle]

“...very few in common with the real P-51, then fly IL-2.” Ouch.

 

Nothing that can’t be tweaked by the devs. Working on the multitudes of facets associated with replicating these planes is always a works in process I guess in trying to attain the best dead-on replication possible. It’s amazing to me that any of the companies can do as well as they do with the tons of information regarding engines, airframes, weapons systems, and on and on and on while translating that all down to a flyable 3D model that performs as close to real life as currently technically possible.  
 

Thanks for posting this find! Very interesting especially being done by a RL pilot instead of an armchair flyer in an apples to apples side by side comparison.
 

In closing to add some food for thought, it’s truly a wonderful time to be flight simming especially with VR now onboard. Just look at how far we’ve come since the days of FS1! And now we’re discussing how far off trim is on a model versus real life! Wow...

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by BornToBattle

[SCG_OpticFlow]

Perhaps 1C needs to send AnPetrovich for a couple of test flights in a real Mustang. At least there are plenty of those still flying.

[PikAss]

1 hour ago, OpticFlow said:

Perhaps 1C needs to send AnPetrovich for a couple of test flights in a real Mustang. At least there are plenty of those still flying.

 

And what does that bring? That he notice that the plane is flying backwards instead Forward?

 

That Video is only about take off and rolling and trim crap. The least important stuff in an aircombat Simulator. I want to see him turning for his life in the plane, climbing, stalling and all that stuff you do in aircombat, sure it stresses the airframe but it is more important than Landing or taking off imo.

[SCG_OpticFlow]

5 minutes ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

 

And what does that bring? That he notice that the plane is flying backwards instead Forward?

 

That Video is only about take off and rolling and trim crap. The least important stuff in an aircombat Simulator. I want to see him turning for his life in the plane, climbing, stalling and all that stuff you do in aircombat, sure it stresses the airframe but it is more important than Landing or taking off imo.

 

"only about take off and rolling and trim crap" -- you missed that other unimportant crap, called landing... Just press Ctrl+E...

[Jaws2002]

28 minutes ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

 

And what does that bring? That he notice that the plane is flying backwards instead Forward?

 

That Video is only about take off and rolling and trim crap. The least important stuff in an aircombat Simulator. I want to see him turning for his life in the plane, climbing, stalling and all that stuff you do in aircombat, sure it stresses the airframe but it is more important than Landing or taking off imo.

 

 

 

I always found flying the DCS mustang such a soothing experience. I would just take it and fly around and it always feels really smooth. 

Never got that feeling in any other aircraft in flight sims.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Jaws2002

[simfan2015]

The enhanced  Normandy of the Open Beta of 12/18 is superb !

It sure will be healthy competition for the future IL-2 BoN/Normandy map ... map-wise that is. 

But it does not really matter much, IL-2 still has the planes and objects that DCS unfortunately can not match.

But still, I will love the new DCS Normandy.

About updating my > 130 GB DCS installation ... no problem at all, nor with the IL-2 updates ... however a super fast internet connection is ... mandatory.

In the end we all win from both IL-2 as wll as DCS ... we can either choose or ... use and enjoyboth (as I  sure do).  

[SCG_motoadve]

19 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

The enhanced  Normandy of the Open Beta of 12/18 is superb !

It sure will be healthy competition for the future IL-2 BoN/Normandy map ... map-wise that is. 

But it does not really matter much, IL-2 still has the planes and objects that DCS unfortunately can not match.

But still, I will love the new DCS Normandy.

About updating my > 130 GB DCS installation ... no problem at all, nor with the IL-2 updates ... however a super fast internet connection is ... mandatory.

In the end we all win from both IL-2 as wll as DCS ... we can either choose or ... use and enjoyboth (as I  sure do).  

I have the DCS Normandy map, how do I get the beta map?

Also, any pictures out there?

[9./JG27golani79]

6 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

I have the DCS Normandy map, how do I get the beta map?

Also, any pictures out there?

 

You need to have the Open Beta installed in order to get the update.

 

Still downloading - haven´t seen any pictures yet.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

B17G has appeal. Sorry for HUD.

 

[simfan2015]

Indeed ! B17.

About the DCS OpenBeta ... vital for MP.

And normally DCS users have to wait around 1 month (or more) to get it on the Stable branch.

My guess is that soon the DCS Forum will be flooded with the enhanced Normandy map pics.

Now even more curious and anticipating the upcoming IL-2 BoN !

2020 will most probably be great for simulation addicts.