Mixed usage of P-51 B/Cs and P-51Ds in USAAF squadrons

[=621=Samikatz]

The main thing that would make our D-15 look out of place for the era is the dorsal fin, I believe. All P-51s in service, including B and C models, were eventually retrofitted with the fins where possible, but the vast majority of retrofits took place after D-Day

 

 

These upgrades were gradual, and done as kits came in. You sometimes see pictures of flights of Mustangs where only one or two of the aircraft have the fin. See the below picture where only the second airplane has a fin (and note the B/C in the back!)

 

[BlackSix]

I've found list of losses for the P-51D-15

http://cgibin.rcn.com/jeremy.k/cgi-bin/gzUsafSearch.pl?target=&content=P-51D-15

Later I will publish the final result here when they began to enter service into the groups of interest to us. I'm working on now P-47D-22 and D-28.

[Talon_]

The only real difference between the D-5 and D-15 is the dorsal fin, so I wouldn't mind seeing Mustang Ds from June 6th.

[Bremspropeller]

What is the campaign-timeframe anyway?

Wouldn't "softening up the Normandy" pre-invasion be an integral part?

 

 

[sevenless]

2 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

What is the campaign-timeframe anyway?

Wouldn't "softening up the Normandy" pre-invasion be an integral part?

 

 

 

Sure that would make a lot of sense. Best timeframe would be to start after "Big Week" in early march. That would give the player 3 months pre-invasion to soften up everything of operational importance in NW-France. And then after D-Day the player has the 84 days past Invasion to kill everything what moves, may it be on the ground or in the air. Normandy campaign officially was over with 29th August and the germans being pushed across the Seine river.

 

https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/battle-of-normandy/days/29-august-1944

[BlackSix]

19 hours ago, sevenless said:

Sure that would make a lot of sense. Best timeframe would be to start after "Big Week" in early march. That would give the player 3 months pre-invasion to soften up everything of operational importance in NW-France. And then after D-Day the player has the 84 days past Invasion to kill everything what moves, may it be on the ground or in the air. Normandy campaign officially was over with 29th August and the germans being pushed across the Seine river.

We plan to start a career around mid-April, when half of the USAAF squadrons had already arrived in England and they began to fly over northern France. The career will end on August 22, at the same time as the end of the Battle of the Falaise Pocket because not even a single Luftwaffe unit will remain on our map after that date. The borders of the map are approved and cannot be changed or moved apart.

[sevenless]

3 hours ago, BlackSix said:

We plan to start a career around mid-April, when half of the USAAF squadrons had already arrived in England and they began to fly over northern France. The career will end on August 22, at the same time as the end of the Battle of the Falaise Pocket because not even a single Luftwaffe unit will remain on our map after that date. The borders of the map are approved and cannot be changed or moved apart.

 

Sounds great. Enough time for pre- and past-D-Day business. Even enough time for some Tip-Run raids on the british coastal towns with Fw 190 F3/G3s.

Edited June 14, 2020 by sevenless

[Bremspropeller]

Given the time-frame, is there a plan to implement an early P-38J some time down the road?

It was a fairly common airframe at that time:

 

Seven Fighter Groups at the beginning of the campaign-timeframe and five Fighter Groups and the end...

 

 

Quote

At the time of the D-Day landings the P-38J was in service with the following units:

 

8th AAF

20th Fighter Group (converted to P-51 July '44)

55th Fighter Squadron
77th Fighter Squadron
79th Fighter Squadron


55th Fighter Group (converted to P-51 July '44)

38th Fighter Squadron
338th Fighter Squadron
343rd Fighter Squadron


364th Fighter Group (converted to P-51 Aug '44)

383rd Fighter Squadron
384th Fighter Squadron
385th Fighter Squadron


479th fighter Group (converted to P-51 Sept '44)

434th Fighter Squadron
435th Fighter Squadron
436th Fighter Squadron


9th AAF

367th Fighter Group (converted to P-47 early '45)

392nd Fighter Squadron
393rd Fighter Squadron
394th Fighter Squadron


370th Fighter Group (converted to P-51 Feb '45)

401st Fighter Squadron
402nd Fighter Squadron
485th Fighter Squadron


474th Fighter Group

428th Fighter Squadron
429th Fighter Squadron
430th Fighter Squadron

 

[BlackSix]

52 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Given the time-frame, is there a plan to implement an early P-38J some time down the road?

It was a fairly common airframe at that time:

 

Seven Fighter Groups at the beginning of the campaign-timeframe and five Fighter Groups and the end...

We've checked list of losses for the P-38 squadrons. You'll be able to fly P-38J-25 from BoBP since July 15 in 367th FG and 474th FG.

[Bremspropeller]

That's not quite the answer I was secretly hoping for (hint, hint ?), but it's good to know there'll be a place vor the Lightning in BoN.

 

Thanks BlackSix!

[Field-Ops]

13 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

That's not quite the answer I was secretly hoping for (hint, hint ?), but it's good to know there'll be a place vor the Lightning in BoN.

 

Thanks BlackSix!

He stated BoBP not BoN, perhaps he meant BoN @BlackSix ?

[Legioneod]

47 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

He stated BoBP not BoN, perhaps he meant BoN @BlackSix ?

I think he was saying the P-38 from BoBP, as in flying the Bodenplatte P-38 in Normandy and not making a new P-38.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Legioneod

[Bremspropeller]

3 hours ago, Legioneod said:

I think he was saying the P-38 from BoBP, as in flying the Bodenplatte P-38 in Normandy and not making a new P-38.

 

That's the way I understood it.

[sevenless]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

That's the way I understood it.

 

Don´t worry. P-38 can be modded in if they don´t include it pre D-Day.

[Bremspropeller]

Yeah, but that would not be a fitting model.

[Ptolemy_Soter]

To mix the P-51 D with B and C models we need P-51 D-5 and D-10.

To cover more missions and scenarios between D-Day and Spring 1945 we need more variants.

Some will say that this is just cosmetic. I prefere to call this historical accuracy.

[Legioneod]

4 hours ago, Ptolemy_Soter said:

To mix the P-51 D with B and C models we need P-51 D-5 and D-10.

To cover more missions and scenarios between D-Day and Spring 1945 we need more variants.

Some will say that this is just cosmetic. I prefere to call this historical accuracy.

The D-15 works fine as a stand in, same for the P-47D-28 standing in for an earlier block like the D-26. Can't have every possible variant, performance figures were pretty much identical anyways.

[Ptolemy_Soter]

I'm sorry but I can't agree with such a statement.

It's not about having every P-51 D in game, it's about having multiple variants to cover a given time frame.

Nobody is complaining about having Bf 109 F-2 and F-4.

We'll have a limited number of aircrafts in game. (Quality over quantity seems to be dev's motto)

Adding some variants to what we already have is a nice way to expand it.

 

[Legioneod]

22 minutes ago, Ptolemy_Soter said:

I'm sorry but I can't agree with such a statement.

It's not about having every P-51 D in game, it's about having multiple variants to cover a given time frame.

Nobody is complaining about having Bf 109 F-2 and F-4.

We'll have a limited number of aircrafts in game. (Quality over quantity seems to be dev's motto)

Adding some variants to what we already have is a nice way to expand it.

 

Agreed but it's a matter of money/time. Having a D-5 or D-10 may seems like a simple as changing the 3d model a bit and tweaking the FM but all of that takes resources and may not be as easy as it seems.

So if it comes to having a D-15 as a stand-in or not having a bubbletop represented at all then I'll gladly take the stand-in even if it's not 100% accurate.

Everything is a compromise, you can't get everything in one go. Eventually it would be nice to see other variants added but it's not essential at this time.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Legioneod

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

6 hours ago, Ptolemy_Soter said:

I'm sorry but I can't agree with such a statement.

It's not about having every P-51 D in game, it's about having multiple variants to cover a given time frame.

Nobody is complaining about having Bf 109 F-2 and F-4.

We'll have a limited number of aircrafts in game. (Quality over quantity seems to be dev's motto)

Adding some variants to what we already have is a nice way to expand it.

 

Bf-109F-2 and F-4 are quite different though, primarily the different engines and different propeller leading to quite a difference in performance.

P-51D-5 and D-15 have very little difference between themselves in performance

[migmadmarine]

And anyway, it's always possible more sub variants will appear in future modules, such as the P-51D-5 or early 38J, but I'm fine with the existing versions act as placeholders for the time being unless they have significantly better performance (see the Bf-109G6 having the late version coming in Normandy)

[Talon_]

On 6/2/2020 at 3:59 PM, BlackSix said:

If there wasn't big difference in the performance between D-5 and D-15 we don't need to do such restrictions for the AI planes. I'll discuss this question with VikS. 

 

BlackSix - is it possible you can do the same for the P-47D-25 and P-47D-28 in BoN? Again there is very little difference in performance between the two aircraft. It means we can fly Bubbletop P-47s some months earlier as far as I know!

[BlackSix]

I can’t give a final answer now, it will be decided next year. The first losses of D-28 modification occurred at the end of August 1944 in several squadrons, so we believe that they could have arrived in the first ten days of August.

[Talon_]

9 hours ago, BlackSix said:

I can’t give a final answer now, it will be decided next year. The first losses of D-28 modification occurred at the end of August 1944 in several squadrons, so we believe that they could have arrived in the first ten days of August.

 

The D-25 performs exactly the same and Zemke was flying one during and before D-Day (from May)

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Talon_

[LuftManu]

I am honestly all in for D-28 in place of D-25 as I am for D-5 and D-15 Mustangs. There are some tings that can't be achieved as we don't have those models, but if the performance is the same, then I don't see any problem for the AI to fly those so we can fill the blanks.

Edited June 27, 2020 by LF_Gallahad

[sevenless]

On 6/27/2020 at 7:21 PM, LF_Gallahad said:

I am honestly all in for D-28 in place of D-25 as I am for D-5 and D-15 Mustangs. There are some tings that can't be achieved as we don't have those models, but if the performance is the same, then I don't see any problem for the AI to fly those so we can fill the blanks.

 

It is already done with LaGGs in the eastern front models, so no problem there at all. We have the 1942 version which is also used as a stand in for the 1943 version in BoK.

Edited June 30, 2020 by sevenless

[Ptolemy_Soter]

You're free to fake planes as you want.

Just remember that modelling a variant of a plane we already have is easier than doing a brand new one.

 

A summary of my fought in a very easy way to understand:

 

Bf 109 G-6 -> G-14 and G-10 -> K-4

P-51 D-5 -> D-10 -> D-15 -> D-20 -> D-25

P-51 K

 

It gives you the feeling that they evolve like Pokemons. 

A very basic of WWII aviation history is that units with a mix of planes were far more common than units with a single model.

Devs are thinking about mixing aircrafts in a given unit to add more realism.

This is great !

But where is the realism when you fly an aircraft that is a "stand for" ?

 

And know the reply will be : "but all mustangs have the same performances, only the flight model counts."

Edited June 30, 2020 by Ptolemy_Soter

[Bremspropeller]

52 minutes ago, Ptolemy_Soter said:

And know the reply will be : "but all mustangs have the same performances, only the flight model counts."

 

Exactly.

The main difference between the D-5 and the D-15 is the dorsal fin on the D-15 (which could be retrofitted to the D-5 anyway).

There's little to nag about in that regard...

 

It's not remotely comparable to having a K-4 stand in for a G-6.

Or a P-38J-25 stand in for an unmodded J-15.

[Talon_]

5 hours ago, Ptolemy_Soter said:

But where is the realism when you fly an aircraft that is a "stand for" ?

 

 

The P-47D-25 and D-28 are basically identical except for a small increase in full throttle height

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

@Ptolemy_Soter you have to understand with the amount of time and resources it takes to make these planes, we will never have all the blocks done. You ask for mustang D-5 and D-10, i'm 90% we will never see it in game given their close similarity to the already made D-15. So your alternative is waiting for them to be done which may as well never happen.

[RedKestrel]

6 hours ago, Ptolemy_Soter said:

You're free to fake planes as you want.

Just remember that modelling a variant of a plane we already have is easier than doing a brand new one.

 

A summary of my fought in a very easy way to understand:

 

Bf 109 G-6 -> G-14 and G-10 -> K-4

P-51 D-5 -> D-10 -> D-15 -> D-20 -> D-25

P-51 K

 

It gives you the feeling that they evolve like Pokemons. 

A very basic of WWII aviation history is that units with a mix of planes were far more common than units with a single model.

Devs are thinking about mixing aircrafts in a given unit to add more realism.

This is great !

But where is the realism when you fly an aircraft that is a "stand for" ?

 

And know the reply will be : "but all mustangs have the same performances, only the flight model counts."

Minor differences not affecting performance in a significant way are acceptable IMO. Why wouldn't they be? The planes we have in sim usually have one or two minor differences to the real-life aircraft they represent, because this is a game and not a museum.  Performance is more important because the sim is about simulating the combat of the time and the relative performance of the planes is critical to producing that.

If its a matter of having the ability to represent a D model P-51, or not having that ability, I feel it is more realistic for there to be an appropriate stand-in for the D model planes that were actually there, than to eschew having D-model P-51s at all. A P-51B is less representative of a P-51D-5 than a P-51D-15, so if a squadron was historically mixed the squadron is less realistic when the D models aren't represented.

 

[Jaegermeister]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:07 AM, Ruben_Szabo said:

On the second, the 3rd and 4th aircraft - a B and a D - are also from the same group, although from the 15th AF (but if the 15th used them together, the other AFs did too, probably). Again what I can tell from the paint job and the markings, they are argueably from the same time period. It's a shame no date or homebase is written.

 

 

Those aircraft were flying out of San Severo, Italy and operating over Rumania, Southern France and Austria. The 1st P-51D model seems to have arrived at their airbase on June 22, 1943 according to Bob Goebel. The CO got the first one to arrive as you would expect. Then the flight leaders with the most kills got the new ones as they were phased in . The biggest difference to Bob Goebel was the canopy of course but mainly the 6 .50s that didn't jam if you fired them while pulling 4+ Gs 

 

Excerpt From  Robert J. Goebel. “Mustang Ace.” Pacifica Military History, 2010-01-01. Apple Books.

My first respite from the daily routine of combat flying was a couple of days in North Africa to bring back a brand-new D model P-51. The big depot was at Casablanca, where the cocooning and other preservatives were removed from the aircraft after shipment across the Atlantic by ship. After cleaning, the new Mustangs were inspected, run up, fueled, and generally made ready for the ferry flight to Italy.

On his return...

By a great stroke of luck (to my thinking), the group had been stood down for five straight days while I was gone. I also drew smug satisfaction from the fact that the very next day, when I was not yet scheduled to go back on operations, the group went to Trieste but because of bad weather was diverted to some piddly-assed alternate. No enemy fighters were sighted.

Most likely 2 days after his return...

My second victory came on June 23 on a return visit to Ploesti, my seventh trip to Rumania.
 

So based on that, The 1st 12 P-51-D models were put into service in Italy about June 22, 1943. I don't know that this defines anything about aircraft in Southern England, but if they had arrived in North Africa by that time, they were probably arriving in England as well.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Jaegermeister

[Jaegermeister]

Excerpt from Steve Blake, The Pioneer Mustang Group, The 354th Fighter Group in WWII, Schiffer Military History Book, 2008. page 185

 

 

 

@BlackSix Here is some more information for you indicating the D model was first made available before the end of May 1944. These were in use by the 354th Fighter Group before they left England for France in late June. 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Jaegermeister

[Bremspropeller]

15 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

So based on that, The 1st 12 P-51-D models were put into service in Italy about June 22, 1943

 

Gotta be a typo.

The first 51Bs were in England in fall of '43 and the D didn't come into theater until 2nd quarter of '44.

[Jaegermeister]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Gotta be a typo.

The first 51Bs were in England in fall of '43 and the D didn't come into theater until 2nd quarter of '44.

 

You're right, that's a typo. I corrected it.

[BlackSix]

Regarding the use of P-51B/C in the BOBP career for 352nd Fighter Group. I found the following losses of these aircraft:

Spoiler

P-51B/C

http://cgibin.rcn.com/jeremy.k/cgi-bin/gzUsafSearch.pl?target=&content=P-51B

 

14710 P-51D-10-NA (352nd FG) lost from unknown cause while chasing German fighter NE of Aachen, Germany Jan 4, 1945. MACR 12319. Pilot KIA.

14475 P-51D-10-NA (352nd FG) shot down by Me 262A-1a flown by Lt Karl Schnorrer of JG 7/9 over Ulzen, Germany Mar 25, 1945. Pilot bailed out but was KIA.

 

14906 P-51-D (352nd FG, 328th FS, *Cripes A'Mighty*) shot down over Langerwehe, Germany by US AAA Dec 25, 1944. Pilot (Major George Preddy) killed.

13759 P-51D-5-NA (328th FS, 352nd FG) crashed 4 mi S of Ostend, Belgium due to bad weather Dec 31, 1944. MACR 11456. Pilot killed.

106852 P-51B (328th FS, 352nd FG) in landing accident at RAF Bodney, Norfolk, England Jan 10, 1945. Pilot survived but aircraft was destroyed.

13685 P-51D-5-NA (328th FS, 352nd FG) crashed during wheels-up belly landing at Brest, France after ran out of fuel Jan 13, 1945. Pilot survived, but aircraft was destroyed.

13406 P-51D-5-NA (328th FS, 352nd FG) in taxiing accident at Chievres airfield A-84, Casteau, Belgium Feb 3, 1945. Pilot killed, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

103801 ??? (328th FS, 352nd FG) in takeoff accident at Chievres airfield A-84, Casteau, Belgium due to engine failure Mar 10, 1945.  Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged and condemned salvage Sep 21, 1945

14882 P-51D-15-NA (328th FS, 352nd FG) crashed E of Rastede, Germany due to engine failure Mar 30, 1945. MACR 13470. Pilot KIA

14250 P-51D-15-NA (328th FS, 352nd FG) in landing accident at Chartres Airfield A-40, Chartres, France Apr 7, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

 

15172 P-51D-15-NA (486th FS, 352nd FG) in landing accident at Chievres airfield A-84, Casteau, Belgium Jan 27, 1945. Pilot survived but aircraft was destroyed.

14720 ??? (486th FS, 352nd FG, 8th AF) crashlanded at RAF Bodney, Norfolk, England Jan 28, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

13805 ??? (486th FS, 352nd FG) in taxiing accident at Chievres Airfield A-84, Casteau, Belgium Feb 2, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

15124 P-51D-15-NA (352nd FG, 486th FS) crashed during wheels-up belly landing at Senssbeck Winneckendonk, 8 km NNE of Geldern, Germany due to mechanical failure Feb 3, 1945. Pilot POW. MACR 12323. German report claims down by flak.

13871 ??? (486th FS, 352nd FG) crashed during wheels-up landing 10 mi E of Lille, France after ran out of fuel Feb 14, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged. Must have been repaired since with 486th FS, 352nd FG in taxiing accident at Chievres Airfield A-84 Casteau, Belgium Apr 7, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

14091 P-51D (468th FS, 352nd FG) in landing accident at Namur airfield Y-47 Namur, Belgium after ran out of fuel Mar 2, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

13362 P-51D-5-NA (486th FS, 352nd FG) shot down by AAA at Neerlage, 6 km NNW of Bentheim, Germany Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12623. Pilot KIA

14877 P-51D-15-NA (486th FS, 352nd FG, 8th AF) ground looped at Chievres Airfield A-84 Casteau, Belgium Apr 12, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

13979 ??? (486th FS, 352nd FG) in landing accident at RAF Bodney, Norfolk, England Apr 13, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

 

6754 ??? (487th FS, 352nd FG) in forced landing at Steeple, Essex, England Feb 18, 1945. Pilot survived, but aircraft was destroyed.

15369 P-51D-15-NA (487th FS, 352nd FG) crashed from unknwon cause at Schwiebus, Germany Mar 18, 1945. MACR 13415. Pilot bailed out and became POW.

15629 P-51D-15-NA (487th FS, 352nd FG, "Eleen and Jerry") crashed from unknown cause at Schwiebus, Germany Mar 18, 1945. Pilot KIA. MACR 13411

13321 P-51D-5-NA (487th FS, 352nd FG) lcrashed 25 mi SE of Regensburg, Germany due to engine failure Apr 16, 1945. MACR 13860. Pilot bailed out, but landed in tree and was killed. The plane at Fantasy of Flight Museum painted as 413321 is actually 45-11507.

14801 P-51D-10-NA (487th FS, 352nd FG) shot down by small arms fire while strafing Prattling airfield in Czechoslovakia Apr 17, 1945. MACR 13936. Pilot KIA

14668 ??? (487th FS, 352nd FG) in takeoff accident at RAF Bodney, Norfolk, England Apr 24, 1945. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.

103758 ??? (487th FS, 352nd FG) ground looped at RAF Honington, Suffolk, England Apr 25, 1945.  Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, condemned salvage Sep 29, 1945

 

[LukeFF]

@BlackSix, I think you will find that many or all of those P-51s were actually D models. For instance, 14710: http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/14425

 

Also, George Preddy's P-51 that he was shot down in in 1944 was definitely a D model.

Edited September 29, 2020 by LukeFF

[BlackSix]

This is bad, I thought I could trust the loss lists on this site. tomorrow I'll check all the numbers.

[Bremspropeller]

Latest P-51B losses for 352nd FG (acc "Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"):

 

487th FS:

- 9/23/1944, HO-S, 43-7094, Lt. Waters KIA

- 9/23/1944, HO- ,  42-106454, Lt. Clark lost

- 9/23/1944, HO-J, 42-106901, Lt. Ayers lost

- 9/25/1944, HO-I, 43-6707, Lt. Evans lost

- 10/04/1944, HO-G, 43-7139, Lt. Forga lost

 

486th FS:

lists no losses in September/ October 1944 or later

 

328th FS:

- 9/12/1944, PE-T, 42-106872, Lt. Broadwater lost

 

[Gambit21]

@BlackSix,

 

Alex, I have the 352nd squadron history, (from the squadron itself) and thus have all of the aircraft, tail numbers, losses, dates, pilots etc etc.

Let me know if I need to type up a full list of losses for you.