The Me 410 hype thread

[sevenless]

4 hours ago, Asgar said:

 

it is a 50mm, according to everything i ever read about that pictures it's ab Me 410A-1/U4  U4 being the Umrüstsatz with a 50mm

 

Nope Flak 43.

 

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2012/04/last-flight-of-lt-paul-kaschuba-and.html

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by sevenless

[Rjel]

16 hours ago, cardboard_killer said:

 

Yes, in order to use a weapon that breaks up formations we need formations to break up!

There is the B-26 coming. They flew tight formation as well as the four engine bombers did. A suitable stand in.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

indeed, there were some 410s with the 37mm FLak 43 in Action.

But the Masterplan was to equip the 410 with the 5cm KwK and to replace the 110's 37mm Flak 18 with the Flak 43.

 

Galland wanted a mix of 5cm KwK and Mk103 armed 410s in the Zerstörer force to fight the US heavy Bombers.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Nice image of those 410s with the 37mm. Apparently the barrel is much shorter than that of the 50mm but they appear more or less similarly protuding from the plane. This would point towards having the gun mounted pretty forwards in the nose, below the pilot more or less,  This would mean the gun only had a single clip like in the case of the Ju 87G or did the pilot reload it himself? (it seeems a bit too far for the gunner to do it like in the Bf 110).

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

the Flak 43 in the Me410 was belt fed.

True, the early test Flak 18 could only fire 12 rounds of one clip - reload like in the110 was impossible.

I just have not found so far how much 37mm shells it carried.

The 5cm had 22 rounds.

Edited January 19, 2020 by III/JG53Frankyboy

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Oh yes.. 

 

https://youtu.be/jAcgUPjb16Q

[Kurfurst]

When you are just about the realize  costs in gasoline for running a 44 liter engine, your buddies run up the other one, too. ? 

[sevenless]

45 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

Oh yes.. 

 

https://youtu.be/jAcgUPjb16Q

 

Can´t wait to do some "Schnellbomber Business" with this baby at dawn over Southampton.

 

2 hours ago, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

the Flak 43 in the Me410 was belt fed.

 

Two 8-round magazines with automatic side feed for the gun, if I understand Forsyth correctly. Don´t ask how they were supposed to switch magazines.

 

The latter Staffel’s primary task was to trial heavy calibre armament such as the 3.7 cm Flak 18 and Flak 43 and the five-centimetre Flak 41 anti-aircraft cannon. These weapons were tested in a variety of hand-fed, belt-fed and automatic configurations. In the Me 410, the cannon were installed with automatic side feed in the form of two six-round magazines for the Flak 18 and two of eight rounds for the Flak 43.

Forsyth, Robert. Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units (Combat Aircraft) (Kindle-Positionen1673-1683). Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle-Version. 
 

In late August one of E.Kdo 25’ s Me 410s had been flown to Vechta, where the airfield workshop set about installing a Flak 43 in the aircraft. This weapon promised a higher rate of fire (240 rounds per minute) than the Flak 18 (60 rounds per minute), but by the end of November satisfactory experiments had still not been carried out. 

Forsyth, Robert. Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units (Combat Aircraft) (Kindle-Positionen1855-1856). Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle-Version.

Edited January 19, 2020 by sevenless

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

@sevenless What do those books say about MK 103 combat usage? I'm also interested in some configurations like 6 x MG 151/20s and use of rockets.

[sevenless]

38 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

@sevenless What do those books say about MK 103 combat usage? I'm also interested in some configurations like 6 x MG 151/20s and use of rockets.

 

Doesn´t look too good for MK 103 combat usage. Looks like that variant was shelved in favor of the Bk 5 solution in late 1943. Some quotes also on 151/20 and rockets:

 

Quote

For some time during 1942 there was concern that the armament of the Me 410 for its role as a Zerstörer was too weak. Thus, it was intended that the planned A-2 variant was to be fitted with two Rheinmetall 30 mm MK 103 cannon. This was a gas-operated, air-cooled gun with a rate of fire of around 420 rounds per minute and with the weapon housing, feed and several other key parts stamped out of sheet metal. However, delays in the delivery of the MK 103 forced Messerschmitt to develop another interim sub-variant of the A-1 in the A-1/ U2, which would instead be fitted with a WB (Waffenbehälter) 151A self-contained, cylindrical gun pod containing a pair of MG 151s with 250 rounds per gun that could be accommodated within the bomb-bay.

 

Quote

Rolled out from Augsburg in mid-August 1943, Me 410 V18 Wk-Nr 10115 TF + ED was sent to the Luftwaffe armament test centre at Tarnewitz in the first half of October, where it was fitted with a twin 30 mm MK 103 cannon pack. The aircraft undertook extensive trials with the weapons prior to being returned to Messerschmitt so that its electrics could be tested – the aircraft was recorded as being at the latter location in June 1944 (EN Archive)

 

Quote

The intended armament was envisaged as two MG 151s and two of the anticipated MK 103s, which, it was hoped, would be available by the autumn of 1943. Messerschmitt also planned to add wingtip extensions to permit greater altitude for interception of the bombers.

 

Quote

on 9 November 1943, Oberst Edgar Petersen of the Kommando der Erprobungsstellen wrote to the RLM advising that following discussions with the General der Jagdflieger and personnel of E.Kdo 25, it was proposed to develop a ‘prototype’ Me 410 at Rechlin fitted with GM-1 power boost, a ZFR 4A telescopic sight and armament comprising either four MG 151/ 20s and two MG 131s, or two MG 151/ 20s and one BK 5, or two MG 151/ 20as and one Flak 43, or two MG 151/ 20s and two MK 103s.

 

Quote

By February 1944, whilst the Luftwaffe had formed a well-organised and efficient air defence network, it was numbers – or lack of them – both in terms of adequately trained pilots and aircraft that was its nemesis, while the USAAF steadily increased its strength, quality, experience and determination. With I./ KG 51 gone and III./ ZG 1 having moved to western France, where it would convert to the Ju 88C, II./ ZG 26, under the command of Eduard Tratt since October, was the sole Me 410-equipped Gruppe left in the Reichsverteidigung. With II./ ZG 26’s aircraft boasting four underwing mortars and four 20 mm cannon, but with the defensive 13 mm barbette machine guns removed, for a newly qualified pilot, an assignment to the unit was tantamount to ‘buying a one-way ticket’.

 

Quote

 

One such pilot was Fritz Buchholz, who joined 6./ ZG 26 on 3 February at Hildesheim from the 2./ Erg.Zerstörergruppe at Braunschweig-Waggum. He later recalled;

Up until March 1944, our Me 410s were fitted with four 21 cm mortars and four 20 mm cannon, but from April to August 1944 they carried the BK 5 cannon.

 

 

So it looks to me as if MK 103 solution was shelved somewhere end43/early44 and they focussed on BK 5 which went operational with II./ZG 26 and 2 machines which were ordered from ErkKdo25 for operational trial fitted with Flak 43. Until march 44 they flew with 4 rockets per plane and 4x 151/20 armament.

[Avimimus]

...and no rear-gunners? I suspect that would mean flying single-seat and lightening the aircraft as much as possible?

[JuliMonkey]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

...and no rear-gunners? I suspect that would mean flying single-seat and lightening the aircraft as much as possible?

As far as I know every Me410 had the 2xMG131 defensive guns, but i might be wrong.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

there were plans to fly the 410 as singleseater - no gunner, no guns and equipment - but to add GM-1 to improve its altitude performance.

 

Few were build and flown, project was cancelled

Edited January 21, 2020 by III/JG53Frankyboy

[JuliMonkey]

Did any Me 410 version use MW 50?

[Notclear]

1 hour ago, JuliMonkey said:

Did any Me 410 version use MW 50?

 

The Me-410 use DB-603, the first Daimler-Benz motors to use MW-50 were from the 605 serie mounted on Bf 109G.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

10 hours ago, JuliMonkey said:

Did any Me 410 version use MW 50?

not so far i have red.

[Sublime]

On 1/19/2020 at 4:34 PM, sevenless said:

 

Can´t wait to do some "Schnellbomber Business" with this baby at dawn over Southampton.

 

 

Two 8-round magazines with automatic side feed for the gun, if I understand Forsyth correctly. Don´t ask how they were supposed to switch magazines.

 

The latter Staffel’s primary task was to trial heavy calibre armament such as the 3.7 cm Flak 18 and Flak 43 and the five-centimetre Flak 41 anti-aircraft cannon. These weapons were tested in a variety of hand-fed, belt-fed and automatic configurations. In the Me 410, the cannon were installed with automatic side feed in the form of two six-round magazines for the Flak 18 and two of eight rounds for the Flak 43.

Forsyth, Robert. Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units (Combat Aircraft) (Kindle-Positionen1673-1683). Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle-Version. 
 

In late August one of E.Kdo 25’ s Me 410s had been flown to Vechta, where the airfield workshop set about installing a Flak 43 in the aircraft. This weapon promised a higher rate of fire (240 rounds per minute) than the Flak 18 (60 rounds per minute), but by the end of November satisfactory experiments had still not been carried out. 

Forsyth, Robert. Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units (Combat Aircraft) (Kindle-Positionen1855-1856). Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle-Version.

Nice research and use of cites.

[Blitzen]

On 1/18/2020 at 5:33 AM, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I just finished installing BAT mod in 1946 just for this plane (and for the Storch, I admit)...

I remember when I flown the 410 the first time when I installed BAT some years ago before resetting my PC... what a gorgeous beast of a plane

I like this Il-2 BAT version too.I only wish the pilot & gunner cockpits had been better done.Can't wait to see this GB version with what promises to have beautiful interiors....& yes die in it ? a lot!

Edited January 22, 2020 by Blitzen

[Avimimus]

56 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Nice research and use of cites.

 

Yes... it is much appreciated. Some small part of me does wish that the developers do not see this thread though... otherwise it looks like we'll be lucky to even get more than one or two options (maybe an additional pair of Mg-151s or the BK-5... but not the 6xMG-151, Mk-103, Mk-108 or Flak-43 loadouts)... I want to test some of the experimental loadouts... maybe pretend to be a B6 etc.

[Asgar]

Man i really hope the devs find the time to get some good mods in the for 410 (reasonable ones of course) seeing as we're going to have to wait for it for quite some time..

[Tigre91]

My body is ready

[Bremspropeller]

Not sure whether the hype about the 410 is justified.

 

Good ole Eric Brown didn't have too much love for it, after all...

[[110]xJammer]

Just now, Bremspropeller said:

Not sure whether the hype about the 410 is justified.

 

Good ole Eric Brown didn't have too much love for it, after all...

 

it is at least twice as good as the hs129, considering the 2nd mk103

[Lusekofte]

The hype is its ?  ? 

It actually did a good job before P 51 escort arrived. It did a fair job as a night fighter. So in this game it have no condition what so ever it will excel. Like the JU 88 C 6. Still you will see a few buggers like me flying it. Because it is the plane with such little impact in war but get a lot of attention anyway. It just look right but is not

7 minutes ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

it is at least twice as good as the hs129, considering the 2nd mk103

Twice as big target too ?
but having get shot down a couple of times in your 110 I guess you will be one of the few making good use of it

Edited May 13, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Bremspropeller]

1 minute ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

It did a fair job as a night fighter.

 

Really? Not sure it was ever used in that role.

 

IIRC it was only used as night-intruder, but in the ground-attack department - not hunting aircraft.

[Lusekofte]

Just now, Bremspropeller said:

 

Really? Not sure it was ever used in that role.

 

IIRC it was only used as night-intruder, but in the ground-attack department - not hunting aircraft.

Was it the 210 that had nightfighter version. Because I seen and read some where used?

[PatrickAWlson]

In SP and coop scenarios it will be an interesting addition.  I would classify it as a combination interceptor/ground attack plane in SP.  It would not do normal front line fighter patrols but rather be used exclusively to attack bombers.  Should get an escort when it is asked to do that and will suffer heavy losses anyway.  As LuseKofte points out, by 1944 it was not in a happy place.

 

Opinions on the 410 as a night fighter: was it better than the 110?  Anybody have a comparison of the types?

[Lusekofte]

14 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Opinions on the 410 as a night fighter: was it better than the 110?  Anybody have a comparison of the types?

I read a book stating in a quote that the 110 had serious issues with aerodynamics  due to the antennas.  Like the malcolm hood in the P 51 it interfered with controls. 
The 110 could not follow a Lancaster in a corkscrew maneuver. 
what I understood this influence was not as bad in the 210/410 

Eric Brown said the 110 was a better dayfighter than Beufighter but Beufighter was the better nightfighter

But my only reference to 210/410 as nightfighter is pictures of them parked and references from flypast that the pilot flew them inbetween other types. 
my impresdion is that 110 was prefered, and DO 215 was far more common than 210/410

Edited May 13, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Alexmarine]

The problem is:

 

The only radar equipped Me-410 versions were for anti shipping role with a FuG200 maritime patrol radar system. I also don't remember to have seen any Me-410 in Nachtjäger units...

Edited May 13, 2020 by ACG_Alexmarine

[Jaws2002]

The Me-410 looks cool, but I'll always hate it. 

 

 That's the aircraft that stole the DB 603 engines for the planed Foke Wulf FW-190B/C.  The Me-410 is the reason Foke Wulf was told to pond sand and make do with the Jumo for their long nose FW-190. Adapting the Jumo wasted two years of developement. The DB-603 powered FW-190B/C could have been in service in mid to late 1943. The Dora only showed up at the end of 44, after most experienced pilots got decimated in A5, A6 and A8s. 

  They wasted over 2000 of those engines on the slow and fat Me-410. 

 

[Elem]

From 'History of the German Night Fighter Force 1917-1945'...

Me 410A-1, B-2       LBeoStaffeln 1, 7,                 No AI Radar fitted.

                                  III/NJG 1,

                                  I/NJG 5,

                                  EKdo 410,

                                  I/KG 51

[Guest deleted@134347]

29 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

The Me-410 looks cool, but I'll always hate it. 

 

 That's the aircraft that stole the DB 603 engines for the planed Foke Wulf FW-190B/C.  The Me-410 is the reason Foke Wulf was told to pond sand and make do with the Jumo for their long nose FW-190. Adapting the Jumo wasted two years of developement. The DB-603 powered FW-190B/C could have been in service in mid to late 1943. The Dora only showed up at the end of 44, after most experienced pilots got decimated in A5, A6 and A8s. 

  They wasted over 2000 of those engines on the slow and fat Me-410. 

 

 

I think you should suggest this as one of the historic idea/reason to the writers of the "The Man in the High Castle" ?

 

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, ACG_Alexmarine said:

The problem is:

 

The only radar equipped Me-410 versions were for anti shipping role with a FuG200 maritime patrol radar system. I also don't remember to have seen any Me-410 in Nachtjäger units...

This might be true, but then 210 had nightfighterversions. With or without radars. As I said I have seen radarfitted 210/ 410. And I know some unit operated them. But I do not know if they had radar or not 

It is hard to explain. I have seen pics of 210/410 with radar. I have read books about nightfighter pilots flying them. I read artcles avout squasrons that had them. 
I know they did have service as nightfighters I just connected photos of radar equipped 210/410 to these squadrons. 
Now it seems the radar was for groundtargets. Very little is written about 410 /210 nightfighters. 
I read one night intruder pilot fron Check republic flying Hurricanes claiming a 210 nightfighter but that could been intruder. 
Very confusing

Edited May 13, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Alexmarine]

Guys, you are trying to make the Me-410 into something that it wasn't: a nightfighter

 

Of Elem posted units only two are nightfighter units with the others being fast night bomber units (yes, I have the KG51 history and that was their role)

 

Of the other two units: III.NJG 1 registered a single Me-410 in inventory between January and February 1944. Same for I./NJG 5 but this time between April and May 1944.

 

Both units nightfighter was the Bf110 and it's various models.

 

PS to add injury: I./NJG 5 was formed from a II./ZG 2 a unit equipped with Me-210, yet already one month after it's change of designation they resigned their Me-210 to other units and operated from that point on mainly on Bf110 models, starting to switch to the nightfighter models of the Ju-88 during Fall of 1944

Edited May 13, 2020 by ACG_Alexmarine

[Lusekofte]

I do not want to make it a nightfighter. But I was sure it had that service too

I will fly it but I am not sure about the reason

[40plus]

5 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I do not want to make it a nightfighter. But I was sure it had that service too

I will fly it but I am not sure about the reason

 

I know why I'll fly it. Because it's gorgeous.

[Asgar]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Not sure whether the hype about the 410 is justified.

 

Good ole Eric Brown didn't have too much love for it, after all...

Did Brown ever have any love for a German plane other than the Ju-88? I can't recall of seeing him anything postive. He's more part of the propganda department than of actualy testing in my opinion

[Bremspropeller]

6 minutes ago, Asgar said:

Did Brown ever have any love for a German plane other than the Ju-88? I can't recall of seeing him anything postive. He's more part of the propganda department than of actualy testing in my opinion

 

Yes.

He was pretty fond of the 189, 190 and 200; as well as the 262 and 162 in general. And certainly the 234 was rated pretty highly.

He liked the general handling caracteristics of the 163, too. That's just off my mind and without looking it up.

 

He's just not jumping onto the same hype-train, the many Luftwaffles like to.

[Asgar]

I just love the 410s design and the potential gameplay it offers.

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

The 110 could not follow a Lancaster in a corkscrew maneuver. 

 

Oh, please do not torment me with mention of my unrequited love, sir!