Ju 88 C6 in BON as nightfighter

[ITAF_Rani]

I see in the planeset B 26 and mosquito....why not  Jub88 as night fighter?

[Jade_Monkey]

There was a large discussion here:

 

 

[Jason_Williams]

We don't model radar to make it a true night-fighter. I can only image the arguments about it. Nightmare for me. Maybe someday.

 

Jason

[ADorante]

"Maybe someday." means there must be enough customers in the meanwhile. You know, revenue for the company. The devs themselves are open to all and any improvements to IL-2:GB, but they need time and money and not everything can be a priority .

[danielprates]

58 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

We don't model radar to make it a true night-fighter. I can only image the arguments about it. Nightmare for me. Maybe someday.

 

Jason

 

If the developers don't want to go that way, we have to respect it: it will surely be a lot of work, really a lot, without any certainty that it will pay off as a product. Modeling the actual airplane is only the tip of the iceberg, since for a proper NJ experience we need: a) airborne radars; b) radio bearings from ground control towards the target; c) radio nav and landing. 

 

They have just announced BoN and lots of people whined about it (unfairly, imho). Imagine announcing a "battle of the reichs defense"! I can totally understand they not wanting to veer towards that direction. 

[Lusekofte]

How should they model Radar? Easy mode or realistic?  Remember we talk about a customer base that barely taxi to runway

Edited January 11, 2020 by No.322_LuseKofte

[DD_Arthur]

5 minutes ago, danielprates said:

Modeling the actual airplane is only the tip of the iceberg, since for a proper NJ experience we need: a) airborne radars; b) radio bearings from ground control towards the target; c) radio nav and landing.  

 

Agree very much.  Look at the amount of research and effort that went into producing gyro gunsights

I would imagine implementing air to air radar would require a concentrated effort by the dev team that would have a huge impact on work schedules. 

To do it all justice  you'd need to give the LW nightfighter force some proper targets and I would think the games whole night enviroment would need a revamp too.  

 

At least in the Mosquito and Ju 88C we have a couple of true, all-weather, multi-role aircraft.

[danielprates]

8 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Agree very much.  Look at the amount of research and effort that went into producing gyro gunsights

I would imagine implementing air to air radar would require a concentrated effort by the dev team that would have a huge impact on work schedules. 

To do it all justice  you'd need to give the LW nightfighter force some proper targets and I would think the games whole night enviroment would need a revamp too.  

 

At least in the Mosquito and Ju 88C we have a couple of true, all-weather, multi-role aircraft.

 

Yeah, all of which would require an amount of work comparable to any expansion. I mean, I would LLLLOOOVVEEE to see it happen but its probably too "niche" to be worth the risk of a game like BoX. 

 

Its more proportional to, say, a IL21946 mod - come to think of it, I remember there existing some good mods, radar included.

[Lusekofte]

I would love to have a radar. But for multiplayer it would not work. 
People do not like darkness. I do not know if it could be used for other things than SP

[sevenless]

I don´t think it would be worth the effort. It is a niche within a niche and playing that in 1946 is for the hardcore guys only.

 

 

[danielprates]

25 minutes ago, sevenless said:

I don´t think it would be worth the effort. It is a niche within a niche and playing that in 1946 is for the hardcore guys only.

 

 

 

There it is.

[Jason_Williams]

If I thought for a minute this community would be satisfied by a "an easily implemented" radar system I would have made it already. You guys are too hard to please as it is.

 

Jason

[Avimimus]

3 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

If I thought for a minute this community would be satisfied by a "an easily implemented" radar system I would have made it already. You guys are too hard to please as it is.

 

Jason

 

What if a few hundred of us swear blood-oaths to be satisfied with it? ?

 

I'm not sure I'm entirely unserious...

[Feathered_IV]

7 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

If I thought for a minute this community would be satisfied by a "an easily implemented" radar system I would have made it already. You guys are too hard to please as it is.

 

Jason

 

I’ve used the radar in Il-2 1946 a lot, and it isn’t the answer for decent gameplay.   Warping to the radar position for a quick look, then warping back again to the pilots seat to peer outside.  It’s irritating and unrealistic.  Especially when you find yourself close to an intercept and are warping between crew positions something like 20x a minute.  

 

You really wouldn't want to create a working radar.  It would be much better to just suggest the existence of one, by having an AI crewman speaking to you.  Giving you bearings to target while you watch the instruments and admire the moon.  

[Gretsch_Man]

11 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

What if a few hundred of us swear blood-oaths to be satisfied with it? ?

 

I'm not sure I'm entirely unserious...

I don't think implementation of radar would be the only headache for the team. For the Luftwaffe side the AI also would have to be able to guide the human player first from the ground, then later once the guy in the back has picked up the contact he also have to guide the player onto the target.

 

As for the suggested blood-oath, I'd first like to know what exactly "an easily implemented" radar system means. On the other hand, I've seen too much whining going on around here on various issues. I guess for the team it's just a case of "once burnt, twice cautious".

 

Personally I would just LOVE to have a fully working night air war campaign, even with a higher price tag attached to it. 

[danielprates]

54 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

I’ve used the radar in Il-2 1946 a lot, and it isn’t the answer for decent gameplay.   Warping to the radar position for a quick look, then warping back again to the pilots seat to peer outside.  It’s irritating and unrealistic.  Especially when you find yourself close to an intercept and are warping between crew positions something like 20x a minute.  

 

You really wouldn't want to create a working radar.  It would be much better to just suggest the existence of one, by having an AI crewman speaking to you.  Giving you bearings to target while you watch the instruments and admire the moon.  

 

I too think that modeling the actual 3D thing in the virtual cockpit, in the operator's seat, would be too cumbersome and people would just end up avoiding it.

 

HOWEVER! I would settle for superimposed screens in technochat manner. You know, click "control+R" and two or three semitransparent circles would toggle in the corner of the monitor, right there in the pilot'a seat. As long of course as the readings shown were similar to the historical readings the crewman got on the tubes - it couldn't be just flashy blue and red icons like in "tie fighter" or "x-wing". 

 

Its a compromise I would accept. What I would not accept is the lack of the radio nav and landing systems of the period. Without them it is just nonsense.

 

Also, I think it was @Gambit21 who recently told me that I was underestimating this games' modding abilities, and that a radio AI that orients you towards targets is feasible. That is also important.

[Gambit21]

3 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

Also, I think it was @Gambit21 who recently told me that I was underestimating this games' modding abilities, and that a radio AI that orients you towards targets is feasible. That is also important.

 

That's more of a scripted logic thing, rather than an under the hood, "radar can vector you to any target, anywhere" kind of thing.

I can design a 'fake' radar that works fairly well within certain parameters...in other words a set of known, randomized target possibilities that occur at a known point in the mission.

In other words I can fool you into thinking that there's a fully functional radar present in theory, but that's different than say spotter functionality that will work relative to two entities at any time, anywhere.

[danielprates]

3 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

That's more of a scripted logic thing, rather than an under the hood, "radar can vector you to any target, anywhere" kind of thing.

 

Oh, so insuficient for a random mission generator, career perhaps, but good enough for scripted missions?

[Gambit21]

5 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

Oh, so insuficient for a random mission generator, career perhaps, but good enough for scripted missions?

 

It would work for a scripted mission where I can control what/where/when things are relative to you and place a radio call that reflects this.

Basically randomly activate certain, carefully timed, pre-scripted scenarios.

It could be created in a fairly complex way so that from the player perspective it 'seems' like actual radar functionality. I have no intention of building such a thing mind you, but it's possible.

 

I might build a simplified version perhaps for the upcoming A-20 night/intruder project, but I'll have to keep it sane/relatively simple.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Gambit21

[danielprates]

4 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

might build a simplified version perhaps for the upcoming A-20 night/intruder project, but I'll have to keep it sane/relatively simple.

 

Big things have small beginnings.

 

Who knows, it may end up being the basic framework upon which something new and refreshing gets developed from.

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

Who knows, it may end up being the basic framework upon which something new and refreshing gets developed from.

 

I think the basis of the project itself (basically an entire campaign in a single randomized mission file) is hopefully exactly that.

U2 night mission version (still unreleased) was the proof of concept. A-20 night/intruder project will be a bit more involved/larger. Then later hopefully an even more fleshed out Mossie day/night cycle version.

[Retnek]

1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

If I thought for a minute this community would be satisfied by a "an easily implemented" radar system I would have made it already. You guys are too hard to please as it is.

 

Jason

All we need is virtual radar operators calling out the data they read from their screens. As it has been. Ground controllers and / or radar operators in the plane. Per radio or intercom - that's it. No need for fancy 3D-radar-instruments, tubes and stuff, no need for a multiplayer-setup to manage the radar. Just the basics per voice: "contact 2 km ahead, heading XXX, slower, left, below"

 

Not to mention further enhanced realism for pilots of multi-crew planes: navigators tracking the flight path, radio-operators getting a position fix, engineers switching fuel tanks aso. All those features scaled down to realism by technical errors, fog of war, different crew training. Would be great.

Edited January 12, 2020 by JG4_Retnek

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

You really wouldn't want to create a working radar.  It would be much better to just suggest the existence of one, by having an AI crewman speaking to you.  Giving you bearings to target while you watch the instruments and admire the moon.  

 

Yes, I always thought this would be the way to do it... treat the on-board radar operator as something similar to the ground control radar operator... have one system of voice guidance.

 

Of course, the way instructions are given would differ a bit... and the underlying calculations would depend on the radar system (and the presence of any countermeasures e.g. window) - but it could be done as one big system without having to actually model the radar operator interfaces and still capture the experience of the pilots.

[BraveSirRobin]

23 minutes ago, JG4_Retnek said:

All we need is virtual radar operators calling out the data they read from their screens. As it has been. Ground controllers and / or radar operators in the plane. Per radio or intercom - that's it. No need for fancy 3D-radar-instruments, tubes and stuff, no need for a multiplayer-setup to manage the radar. Just the basics per voice: "contact 2 km ahead, heading XXX, slower, left, below"

 

Not to mention further enhanced realism for pilots of multi-crew planes: navigators tracking the flight path, radio-operators getting a position fix, engineers switching fuel tanks aso. All those features scaled down to realism by technical errors, fog of war, different crew training. Would be great.

 

That still requires a realistic radar system.  It's just a realistic system operated by the AI.  And then they will get constant complaining from people who want to operate the radar and more complaining from people who think the AI radar operator comms is poor.

[Gretsch_Man]

19 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

And then they will get constant complaining from people who want to operate the radar and more complaining from people who think the AI radar operator comms is poor.

Yeah, that's probably true.

 

Although I must confess I'm one of those who would prefer to have fully modeled on-board radar systems, having just the AI to vector you on target in a believable way would be acceptable to me, too.  

[ATAG_SKUD]

6 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

I’ve used the radar in Il-2 1946 a lot, and it isn’t the answer for decent gameplay.   Warping to the radar position for a quick look, then warping back again to the pilots seat to peer outside.  It’s irritating and unrealistic.  Especially when you find yourself close to an intercept and are warping between crew positions something like 20x a minute.  

 

You really wouldn't want to create a working radar.  It would be much better to just suggest the existence of one, by having an AI crewman speaking to you.  Giving you bearings to target while you watch the instruments and admire the moon.  

 Why not both?

Maybe we don't mind warping positions (which I do in my Ju 88 all the time already) or happen to have a real radar operator in the backseat in which case the AI chatter would be switched off?

 How would this be greatly different from your AI gunners now who give you that crucial "He's engaging" just as your wing is being sawed off?

We would need some kind of GCI to get us close.

skud

Edited January 12, 2020 by ATAG_SKUD

[ATAG_SKUD]

6 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

If I thought for a minute this community would be satisfied by a "an easily implemented" radar system I would have made it already. You guys are too hard to please as it is.

 

Jason

Why not make it a expansion pack and/or collectors? If they don't like the night fighters or the way its implemented they can choose to not buy it.

I'd buy it.

BTW I know the modder that put the '46 version together in his spare time and although he might be real busy I'll bet he could explain how he did it.

skud

[Juri_JS]

6 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

If I thought for a minute this community would be satisfied by a "an easily implemented" radar system I would have made it already. You guys are too hard to please as it is.

 

Jason

 

In fact we already have a basic system in the game to simulate commands from radio operators. In the mission builder you have to link a ground based spotter unit to the player by using a "cover" command and you will get information on direction and distance to the target. The problem is, that the reports are not detailed enough to allow interceptions during the night. What's missing is information on target height. Moreover the reports need to happen more often when the player approaches the target.

I think with some improvements the existing system could be used to simulate both guiding from ground based radar and from radio operators.

 

 

[Yogiflight]

4 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

What's missing is information on target height

which is a very basic information and should definitely be part of spotter informations of any kind, inlusing an eventually coming radar.

[Lusekofte]

If it is possible to implement just the voice of a radar operator giving bearings. First from the ground and then the onboard operator. It would be sufficient to have a working night fighter. 
Until we know how much it will be used that is quite enough. We have to remember that with simple enough solution this can be added to the mossie also. And it will give a indication if it will be used and appreciated. 

[[I./JG62]steppa]

About the warping between stations, this problem could be eliminated by nightfighter conversions of single seat aircraft like the fw190 A8 or A6 of which there were NFs.

 

I would love to see any, no matter how simplyfied, depiction of nightfighting.

 

Jason please reconsider not bringing nightfighting to this wonderfull game.

[FoxbatRU]

IMHO. A real black night can really be too hardcore. But, if it is done as it is now, the night bombing missions, when the night is not completely black. It only creates surroundings. And if, on a night with searchlights, add night fighters with and without radar, this could attract a much larger part of the players. The readings of the radar oscilloscopes, yes, can be added since the minimap is a picture in a picture. And for those who do not want to suffer, there will always be the opportunity to turn on markers. True, a moment will appear with the AI settings so that the AI does not see at night as during the day.  

[Lusekofte]

27 minutes ago, FoxbatRU said:

without radar, this could attract a much larger part of the players. The readings of the radar oscilloscopes, yes, can be added since the minimap is a picture in a picture

In my opinion this will not be a popular mp scenario. I attended servers rhat have morning light. Or evening. In Cod night. They are all the same, people wont fly. 
I believe this will be great for coop, singleplayer and a few like me in mp

Edited January 12, 2020 by No.322_LuseKofte

[FoxbatRU]

19 минут назад, No.322_LuseKofte сказал:

In my opinion this will not be a popular mp scenario.

Yes, but I meant SP. As the main one. Night missions will diversify a career well and will allow you to do interesting campaigns with night battles.

 

[Lofte]

6 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

In the mission builder you have to link a ground based spotter unit to the player by using a "cover" command and you will get information on direction and distance to the target.

Could you upload mission sample here?

[6./ZG26_Loke]

The Ju-88 Nightfighters main target were the British Halifax and Lancaster bomb groups.  I don't see any Halifax nor Lancaster announced. 

[Juri_JS]

7 minutes ago, Lofte said:

Could you upload mission sample here?

Here's a simple nightfighter test mission. In the mission I've also given the spotter an "Attack Area" command, I think that's necessary too.

Nightfighter test.zip

[danielprates]

2 hours ago, FoxbatRU said:

The readings of the radar oscilloscopes, yes, can be added since the minimap is a picture in a picture

 

This is exactly what I had in mind. You don't switch to the operator's seat, you merely click "control+R" or something and the osciloscope info appears in semi-transparent fashion in the corner of the screen. You toggle it on and off as you please. Of course this does not conflict with the other ideas, like the operator giving you audio bearings. 

 

With this, a virtual cockpit with the actual radar gear is dispensable. 

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

The Ju-88 Nightfighters main target were the British Halifax and Lancaster bomb groups.  I don't see any Halifax nor Lancaster announced. 

 

Any bomber would suffice, like the Mosquitos, b25s and b26s - don't bother explaining me if and how they flew night missions, I know already. That is not the point.

 

I feel that mostly nobody would mind, save some hair-splitting bores I see every now and then in this forum.

Edited January 12, 2020 by danielprates

[Lusekofte]

Mosquito is and was a target for night fighters. The JU 88 was a target for allied night fighters, both A and night fighter version. 
I see absolutely no problem in a night fighter scenario with the plane set we are getting

[LuftManu]

15 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

I’ve used the radar in Il-2 1946 a lot, and it isn’t the answer for decent gameplay.   Warping to the radar position for a quick look, then warping back again to the pilots seat to peer outside.  It’s irritating and unrealistic.  Especially when you find yourself close to an intercept and are warping between crew positions something like 20x a minute.  

 

You really wouldn't want to create a working radar.  It would be much better to just suggest the existence of one, by having an AI crewman speaking to you.  Giving you bearings to target while you watch the instruments and admire the moon.  

This is a nice idea. Realistic to make and realistic to fly with. Having only the callouts works for me if we don't have a radar simulation.