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ME-BFMasserME262

Inspire me to love the almighty Mig

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From the creator of "I cant face Ratas in a F2" and "cant beat those Russian UFOs because I can't control the 109 properly" comes...

"I can't make myself love this crap of Mig"!!!

 

Now seriously people, I just can't understand how you can like this damned thing. The worst part is that is so sexy, it looks hella gorgeous, so I want to learn how to fly it but... Man, it infuriates me more than fighting Ratas.

 

I ask for people to tell me how to love it since in other thread I said that I would love to like this plane like many do but... Damn, it's slow, not maneuverable, slow, easy to stall, slow, need constant abuse of rudder pedals, slow, has ridiculous flaps system, slow.

Did I forget to mention its slow?

 

Oh, and I make it stall every 5 seconds.

 

Plus the fact that I dont get the flap limiter thing. Man let me release and retract flaps without any strange things like limiters, like in any other plane, please! Thanks!

 

Yes, I watched some YouTube videos but that doesn't help me a lot lol. I never could learn a thing by watching videos.

Maybe a performance chart to make me know what settings should I fly with the plane with? God, I have no idea.

 

Give me a La5 series 8 or a LaGG, now those are killers

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Well, it's actually furiously fast, has good firepower and it looks super cool.

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It’s one of my favorites for its excellent visibility, loadout options (love the 20mms with no tracers), good engine performance, and maneuverability at medium speeds. It’s engine is good at keeping the plane at those speeds in combat (unlike say a late 109 (low speed maneuver/high speed plane) or on the opposite end a p39 for many players (imposing engine timers make it hard to stay fast and turn well)). The flaps are interesting but I don’t really use them on this plane tbh. Iirc it has good range too.

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3 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Plus the fact that I dont get the flap limiter thing. Man let me release and retract flaps without any strange things like limiters, like in any other plane, please! Thanks!

 

Are you asking the devs to change it, and make it like the other planes, ignoring historical accuracy and how the plane was actually built?

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12 minutes ago, FeuerFliegen said:

 

Are you asking the devs to change it, and make it like the other planes, ignoring historical accuracy and how the plane was actually built?

 

IIRC the Mig 3 has two flap controls: a wheel to the left of the seat and a three-position handle above that; and additionally a max flap angle indicator on the floor ahead of the stick. It sure looks like pilots could dial in the desired max flap angle and then use the handle to toggle between extended and retracted. Is that not the case? If not, what does the wheel do that the handle and floor indicator don't?

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One short note about dogfighting in the MiG: she has a sweet spot, a narrow speed interval at about 350-380 kph give or take, where it delivers! Go slower, and you'll stall and more importantly bleed E, go higher and you'll loose responsiveness; stay at about 380 kph and you'll ride one of the sweetest dogfighters in the sim.

 

Oh, and take twin UBS in the nose and don't even think about packing two more under the wings, they are not worth it (unless you go after bombers exclusively, and I'd hesitate even there).

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1 hour ago, Charon said:

 

IIRC the Mig 3 has two flap controls: a wheel to the left of the seat and a three-position handle above that; and additionally a max flap angle indicator on the floor ahead of the stick. It sure looks like pilots could dial in the desired max flap angle and then use the handle to toggle between extended and retracted. Is that not the case? If not, what does the wheel do that the handle and floor indicator don't?

 

 

Yes that is the case; was there something I said that would indicate otherwise?

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3 hours ago, FeuerFliegen said:

 

Are you asking the devs to change it, and make it like the other planes, ignoring historical accuracy and how the plane was actually built?

Lol no, it's just saying.

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7 hours ago, FeuerFliegen said:

 

 

Yes that is the case; was there something I said that would indicate otherwise?

 

If that's the case, shouldn't we be able to assign "max flap angle" to a slider that's separate from the flaps up/down controls?

 

As I understand it, real Mig pilots could dial in a particular flap setting for combat and could then quickly deploy flaps to that angle using the handle. We can't do that. If we want to deploy flaps in combat, we need to press and hold 'flaps down' until the max angle is reached, which is slow and impractical. There's no way in game to have retracted flaps with a nonzero max flap angle set.

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22 minutes ago, Charon said:

could dial in a particular flap setting for combat and could then quickly deploy flaps to that angle using the handle

that's exactly what I thought limiters were for. But, or I am wrong, or the game is wrong. You say flaps worked like that in RL, I don't know if that's actually true. But that's how I would like to use limiters.

Edited by ME-BFMasserME262
wrong grammar

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I don't actually know how the flap limiters worked in real life, but it's difficult for me to imagine what Mikoyan and Gurevich were trying to do with their flap controls if the wheel doesn't do anything. I'd be happy for someone to explain it to me if I'm wrong, though.

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9 minutes ago, Charon said:

I don't actually know how the flap limiters worked in real life, but it's difficult for me to imagine what Mikoyan and Gurevich were trying to do with their flap controls if the wheel doesn't do anything. I'd be happy for someone to explain it to me if I'm wrong, though.

sorry I misunderstood then. But I second that, about someone explaining the usage of flaps and limiter

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The Mig is kinda like that creature from Avatar, which you know has chosen you to be it's rider from the fact that it'll try to kill you.

 

Takeoff is the great rite of passage it imposes on any seeking to earn its favor, if you survive it, it'll reward you with an excellent ride. 

 

 

It is a very ruddery airplane. That engine has copious amounts of torque that make helicopters seem as stable as freight elevators. Don't be shy to set as much as 75% left rudder trim for takeoff.  

 

Throttle up easily and gently as you roll up your speed on the runway - do not stand on the brakes like you're on a carrier catapult, for it gets very sullen if you do that. It'll let you know it's unhappy by trying to dig a trench across the airfield while scattering bits of you along the way.  Needless to say, this is not good for the war effort.

 

 

Once you takeoff, you'll find that the propeller is already at it's optimal RPM - you can ride all day with the engine turning at its rated 2050rpm with 100% RPM settings, just adjust your rads to keep temperatures in check and don't forget the throttle at full boost the whole way (mixture is auto-rich at 50%, above that it just unleashes Moar Powah™) and you should be fine.  That engine is almost impossible to break. Pulling back RPMs is only needed if you're worried about saving fuel.

 

Then keep an eye on the slip-ball as you change airspeed and power settings. The Mig will crab like a multi-legged sea creature and you can lose a lot of speed by letting it fly sideways like that.  Trim it to face into the wind, and it'll feel (and look quite a bit) like you're flying an X-Wing.

 

 

 

It gets best performance above 2000m alt.  And it is slightly better when used as a boomer-zoomer than at turn fighting. 

 

 

 

And you get bonus McGuyver points for the fact that it features what looks undeniably like adhesive tape sealing the gaps on the windshield.

 

 

 

edit:

 

Here's how the flap limiter thing works:

 

 

The mig has only two flap settings, being UP and DOWN.

The flaps are pneumatically driven, like those on the Spitfire.

 

In order to have the flaps stop in positions other than fully up or down, MiG installed a device that physically holds the flaps at a maximum extension when in the DOWN position

 

Think of how it works: actuators fill with compressed air, forcing the flaps down - The limiter forces them to stop somewhere in between.  Since air can compress (unlike hydraulic fluids) the system does not explode from doing this.

 

In IL2, it is implemented like this:

 

 - hit the FLAPS DOWN key once (tap it) and the flaps go to the DOWN position (actuators actuate)

 - hit FLAPS UP, and just like in a Spitfire, they close back up. (who'd have thunk, eh?)

 

 - now,  press and HOLD the FLAPS DOWN key, and you can engage the limiter to stop the flaps at a middle position. They won't move immediately while you do this, for the pressure valve remains closed until you tap FLAPS DOWN to open up and deploy them.  

 - With the limiter set, the flaps can only move between fully up and the limiter position.  hold FLAPS UP to move the limiter back up

 

in short:  tapping the flaps up/down keys controls the pressure valve.  Holding those same keys will set the limiter to stop it at the selected maximum opening position when the valve is set to DOWN.

 

 

What is confusing about this implementation, is that the limiter setting defaults to "unlimited" when you spawn in.

Even of from the indicator on the cockpit floor, it looks like it should be limited at zero, which you'd expect would clamp the flaps fully closed, with or without air pressure going through.

 

But the game seems to make some exception to this, and if you don't hold down the key to set the limiter at least once, it acts like it's set to fully open.

 

 

Does that make any sense?

 

 

 

Anyways - you can totally live happily with your MiG while forgetting the flaps limiter exists altogether.  You only really need half-flaps if you're trying to haul up a pair of bombs on a short runway takeoff.  For anything else, Up or Down should cover all your lift coefficient needs.

 

Edited by 19//Moach
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2 hours ago, Charon said:

 

If that's the case, shouldn't we be able to assign "max flap angle" to a slider that's separate from the flaps up/down controls?

 

As I understand it, real Mig pilots could dial in a particular flap setting for combat and could then quickly deploy flaps to that angle using the handle. We can't do that. If we want to deploy flaps in combat, we need to press and hold 'flaps down' until the max angle is reached, which is slow and impractical. There's no way in game to have retracted flaps with a nonzero max flap angle set.

I haven't check afther 4.001 got released. But before you could have flaps retracted and limiter set to other thing than Max,

My standard procedure was:

On the ground and before take off. (If I didn't need flaps to take off) to press once flaps to deploy full 100%, then press AND HOLD flaps up to retract flaps and at the same time the flaps indicator in tecnochat would srart decreasing slowly, until I reached the desired amount, say 40%.

In this way, I would have flaps UP and the "indicator/limiter" at 40%

So when I in the future need "combat flaps" I press once Flaps Down, and they would drop instantly to 40%

 

:)

 

 

@ 19//Moach beat me to it

Edited by =FEW=fernando11
Correction

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couple of tricks:

- fly it like 109. Try to maintain that E

- set the flap limiter to 20% and release them during some sharp maneuvering. The challenge here is that you'll have 1 or 2 times to use the tight turns, similar to 190.. after that you'll bleed the E like crazy, so use it sparingly.

- get 20mm SHVAK and set convergence to 180m.  Shoot only when you're at 100-200 meters. 1-2 shots and the enemy is down. It's the best tactic to make sure you're not over exposing yourself. The .50 cals are good only if you're flying in a squad of 3-4 Migs where you take turns to subdue the enemy.

- in dog fights use boost during the dive, or during a chase (max ~5mins, and watch the air temps)

- set oil rads to 20% and air rads to 50%. It's a good setting for pretty much any external temps out there.

- don't pull on the stick too much during the maneuvers. The plane has a very strong elevator authority at ~350-500km/h and you'll pass out very quickly, especially when fighting the 109's. So watch out for that massive g-lock.

 

the plane is a tough cookie to fly, but there's so few people who can do it right that the blue pilots usually don't see mig3 as a threatening enemy and they relax. And that's when you get them. 😄

 

 

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I STILL have problems with the limiter.

 

I hold the release flaps button, so I change the limiter. But it also releases the flap as soon as I release the button.

 

I then press (single tap) the retract flap button... and nothing happens.

7 hours ago, 19//Moach said:

They won't move immediately while you do this, for the pressure valve remains closed until you tap FLAPS DOWN to open up and deploy them.  

They dont move immediately, but they move as soon as I stop holding the button to release the flaps, but I never tap the button to make the flaps go down.

 

Sorry people, I guess this is pretty simple and idiotic but I just don't get it

 

 

Edit: so I make the flaps release completely. For what I understand from Moach's comment, if I tap now (single tap, not hold) the "retract flaps" button, they must retract completely (since now they are completely "down") because of the  pressure valve gonna start working. But nothing happens, Im forced to hold the "retract flaps" button.

 

The funny thing is, flaps are totally released ("down" position), I "tap" (single tap) the "flaps up" button... and the UI says "Flaps: retract" (and the green icon that indicates the flaps should start retracting) in the right side of the screen... but the flaps doesnt move at all.

Plus, I hold the "flaps up" and the flaps goes up and the limiter as well... but as soon as I stop holding the "flaps up" button, the flaps automatically releases again, to whatever position the limiter had after finished pressing "flaps up" button. Sorry if I'm not clear on my explanations.

 

This is going beyond me

Edited by ME-BFMasserME262

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Update: I shot down a 109 G2 in a QMB, "scramble" mission. I did a bit of what everyone adviced and I managed to bring him down!

 

Took off and patiently found the chances to climb to 2000m, avoiding his attacks. At that moment, the AI 109 made some mistakes bleeding its energy trying to get a good firing position.... and then I took the advantage, max power, aim, few shots... and his engine set in a hell of fire.

Was fun.

 

I didn't touch the RPM either, you were very right Moach!

 

1 hour ago, Count_de_Money said:

get 20mm SHVAK and set convergence to 180m.  Shoot only when you're at 100-200 meters

worked greatly!

 

Slowly working on making the Mig my favorite Allied plane... gonna take time I guess but with the great advice and help of you guys everything's easier! Thanks a lot

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Mastiff explain it:

 

 

I apologize for confusing things a bit. In my previous explanation I mis-recalled how the flap limiter setting is arranged upon spawning in a MiG3.

 

 

I mentioned that the flaps limiter should start at a default unlimited (full deployment) position. This is correct. 

 

 

What I remembered wrong, was that in order to set the limiter upon starting, you don't hold FLAPS DOWN as I said - You instead hold FLAPS UP.

 

The limiter then moves from its starting "full out" position up towards fully closed. There is no "exception" to the flap limiter position being initially set to zero, for it is instead really set to maximum at startup.

 

That's what I get for spewing out operating "procedures" off the top of my head...  I guess it's one of those things that once you get it down to habits, you no longer stop to think about how you're doing it.

 

-------------

 

 

Corrected flap limiter operations (from pre-flight, just after spawning in):

 

Flaps Limiter defaults to allow full extension, so if left unchanged, UP and DOWN are your only options.

 

Hit FLAPS DOWN (quick tap on the key):  flaps deploy as far as the limiter allows

Hit FLAPS UP (quick tap):  flaps close back in.

 

Now, HOLD FLAPS UP (press and hold key):   Flap limiter thingy moves UP gradually.

Then, tap FLAPS DOWN:   Flaps deploy only as far as the limiter position.

 

Hold FLAPS DOWN:  Flap limiter moves gradually back down towards fully open.

 

 

It is actually possible to have the flaps deploy gradually, following the limiter on their way up and down. (Acting just like those on the LA5, though much slower)  

 

This is done by first moving the limiter all the way up, then moving the pressure valve to "down".   Then, moving the limiter back down, with the control valve set to extend, the flaps will be forced down against the limiter, which you can then use to slowly move them into any position you want. 

 

Note that retracting flaps by this method may leave you at risk of forgetting the control valve in the "down" position and/or the limiter set to fully closed.  That could cause some "uh oh" moments should you find yourself short of airspeed and in need of flaps fully down quick later on.

 

 

 

 

 

To sum up:

 

Tapping the flaps UP/DOWN keys operates the pressure valve, directing compressed air to move the flaps towards closed, or as far open as the limiter allows.

 

Holding these same keys gradually change the position of the flap limiter, setting how far out flaps can go when deployed.

 

The flap limiter default (starting) position is to allow full deployment, which is really all you need for most flights.

 

 

 

It's not that complicated, really - If it still seems like it's doing something unexpected, check your key settings and make sure there aren't any double-bindings or such getting in the way.

 

 

Fly safe out there :salute:

 

 

 

 

Edited by 19//Moach

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22 minutes ago, 19//Moach said:

Tapping the flaps UP/DOWN keys operates the pressure valve, directing compressed air to move the flaps towards closed, or as far open as the limiter allows

 

23 minutes ago, 19//Moach said:

It's not that complicated, really - If it still seems like it's doing something unexpected, check your key settings and make sure there aren't any double-bindings or such getting in the way.

Exactly, I want to believe I understood it but then the game doesn't behave like that. I guess it s a key binding problem of my own settings.

 

Anyway, I could manage the thing and shot down a 109 G2, an E7 and an A3 without any flaps/limiter usage :D.

 

The battle against the E7 was the hardest, I never could reach his 6 because his maneuverability is awesome, so I have to take the risk and do some face to face combat but luckily I won and he missed.

 

Thanks for the explanation and the patience man, I will try to check my bindings for flaps, because although I didnt need it, I would like to know how to use it properly for future flights and knowledge. :)

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6 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

 

Exactly, I want to believe I understood it but then the game doesn't behave like that. I guess it s a key binding problem of my own settings.

,,,

 

Same here. The "key tap" functionality doesn't work for me. My flap up/flap down keys are bound correctly, with no duplicate bindings.

Edited by JimTM

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That video is old. The flaps were changed in 4.001.

 

Quote

43. MiG-3 flaps have been corrected - any change of the flaps limiter position retracts them first and then extends to a new position;

 

The flap limiter now starts at 0, and it's not possible to set the limiter without deploying the flaps. I just now tested this in a QB.

 

12 hours ago, 19//Moach said:

It is a very ruddery airplane. That engine has copious amounts of torque that make helicopters seem as stable as freight elevators. Don't be shy to set as much as 75% left rudder trim for takeoff.  

 

Throttle up easily and gently as you roll up your speed on the runway - do not stand on the brakes like you're on a carrier catapult, for it gets very sullen if you do that. It'll let you know it's unhappy by trying to dig a trench across the airfield while scattering bits of you along the way.  Needless to say, this is not good for the war effort.

 

Funny, that's almost the opposite of how I take off. I hold the stick back, hold the brakes on, slam the throttle to 100% and let it fly. The key thing, though, is that I first give it full left rudder to unlock the tail-wheel, relax it to about 50%, and only then throttle up. I figure I can handle taking off with an unlocked tail wheel (it's not that different than the LaGG-3, in that respect), but I can't recover from accidentally unlocking the tail wheel at 80kph. Unlocking the wheel from the start frees me to be as fast and heavy on the rudder as I need to to keep it straight.

 

What I can't handle, though, is landing it without ground looping. I can put it on the runway just fine, but every time I get to about 50kph it starts to drift. I either fail to correct it with small rudder inputs, or overcorrect and unlock the tail wheel. Either way I ground loop. Can anyone help me out? Is there a trick? My ground crew are getting tired of rebuilding the horizontal stabilizer after every flight.

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I just tested MIG yesterday, patch 4.003, and the flaps don't retract with a tap. Bug?

Edited by Hipsu

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4 hours ago, Charon said:

That video is old. The flaps were changed in 4.001.

 

Quote

43. MiG-3 flaps have been corrected - any change of the flaps limiter position retracts them first and then extends to a new position;

didn't know that. I guess that explains everything!

 

 

About the ground looping, I guess its just keep trying and practicing.

Same happens to me with the spitfire, but lately I'm finally starting to control it after landing. Its a combination of ruddering one side and the other quickly, changing sides so I dont let the plane do whatever he wants. If he want to go to the right, then I press full left rudder and give a soft touch to the breaks (not so much) so the plane stop going to the right and goes straight again, and then repeat everything until fully stops.

 

Its tricky but I guess after 50000 more ground loops, I can finally get it

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8 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Fly the aircraft don't react to it 😎

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

difficult to not to react when I shot down my favorite planes with my most hated plane 😄

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Well, I was waiting for 

 

In soviet Russia Mig 3 flys you! 😀

 

But what I mean is (particularly with rudder inputs) is that you nead to be pro active, not reactive, constant small movements so that you are controlling what is happening not reacting, if you are (behind the aircraft) it is usually too late, this is true in real taildraggers and in the sim/game as well. 

 

You need to be in control and anticipating things so you are giving control inputs not reacting to the aircraft. 

 

Difficult to explain but once you 'get it'.... a bit like riding a (complicated) bicycle

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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oh, I misunderstood the previous post. 

 

You can't be more right in that, actually one should always control de plane and not vice versa, but I get your point.

 

Thanks for all the advice in this thread you all!😄

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to avoid ground loops one needs always remember the maxim:

 

In a taildragger, the landing is only over after the hangar doors are closed.

 

 

Most ground loops (most of mine at least) happen late into a landing run, when you're almost (but fatefully not quite) just there....   Once you start acting like you got it in the bag, In Soviet Russia, the bag has got you!

 

That moment where you're starting to get comfortable enough to try steering, rather than just holding straight for dear life, is quite treacherous in a plane like the MiG3. 

 

One has to actively refrain from acting on the impulse to behave as if the landing is complete, well until after the beast has gotten down to about half the speed where you'd normally start thinking you've "Landed" (just gonna roll off the runway now and... whaaaaAAAAAH!!)

 

 

Happens all the time... 

 

Remember, she's a lady.   Which means you have to treat her a whole lot better than she'll ever have to treat you.

 

Edited by 19//Moach

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On 12/18/2019 at 4:19 AM, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

 

From the creator of "I cant face Ratas in a F2" and "cant beat those Russian UFOs because I can't control the 109 properly" comes...

"I can't make myself love this crap of Mig"!!!

 

I've read that with voice from 80's/90's movie trailers!

 

Now i see a sequel narrating;

One man, one Mig.... and a bunch of enemies chasing him to home airfield!

In a new "Overheating Mig"!

Edited by EAF_Ribbon
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Most of the Russian birds take a different feel to be really good at. I still can't fly them as well/instinctively as I can a 109.

 

That said, I think the thing to remember is that while many Russian planes turn very well, arguably equal or better than German ones, they don't take abuse as well. You can manhandle a 109 with those slats and against a skilled opponent he will probably beat you, but you can get away with a lot more than you should. 

 

With a Russian plane there is this balance of extracting every little drop of performance it has while not stepping over the limit where it will punish you harshly. You really need to listen to the wind noise over the wings and when it starts getting loud as you turn, that's it, that's all it's got. 

 

The Mig is not as adept at turning as the other Russian planes. It is more suited to boom and zoom tactics at very high altitude. However, it can still do surprisingly well in a knife fight, especially if you drop a few degrees of flaps. 

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one more hint for Mig3:

- set the RPM to 100% and forget it.

- control with throttle only.

 

If you start messing around with the RPM's during a dogfight you will lose. The RPM's are controlled not by a lever but by a knob and it takes very long time for a pilot to adjust it (twisting it)..

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57 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

one more hint for Mig3:

- set the RPM to 100% and forget it.

- control with throttle only.

 

If you start messing around with the RPM's during a dogfight you will lose. The RPM's are controlled not by a lever but by a knob and it takes very long time for a pilot to adjust it (twisting it)..

I use the engine in 2 modes

cruise: 80 mix, 100 rpm and throttle

combat 100 mix and rpm, variable throttle.

 

Different than other a/c but easy. 

Both rads get left ~35 and never any issues.

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