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A few issues degrading online MP experience on the EASTERN FRONT after last patch

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IMO For VVS vs LW there is not better MP Test Bench than TAW server, because each campaigns keeps a chronological order from 41-43 and it runs 24/7 for a couple of months each campaign, and weeks long maps with same planesets and numerous missions to test different situations, repetidely time after time. From my experience latest patch it's terrible for MP competitions on the Eastern Front, and although i'm writing from a VVS fighter pilot perspective, will also add some general issues first:

General issues:

1. Dreadful visuals and spotting system where you can see a contact 60km away if the light is right and you downgrade your settings (even with "realistic" ON) but miss a plane 2km around, and if you want to have better spotting you have to degrade a lot your graphic settings turning your modern GPUs into a Commodore 64 experience. I'd rather have the 10km limit spotting again.

 

2. Gunners...all of them, ridiculous behaviour, specially in any level that's not the minimum one; so they go from blind donkeys to all seeing sniper cyborgs


3. Way exagereted G effect, now plane turning performance doesn´t matter much, it's all about pilots G.
 

4. Physiology also way too exagerated, if you are hit anywhere near the cockpit, bye bye, you won't be able to bail nor survive.


VVS issues (it's what i fly 90% of the time, LW will have their own for sure)

1. After later patches VVS early fighter ammo (combination of 1xShvak/Shaks; 1Shvak/UBS; 2xUBS)  have become way too weak compared to previous patches specially from last year (2018), these guns don´t do as much damage to 109s or any LW plane. So is it because LW planes have tougher DM now? Is it the VVS guns went really weaker? What is it? When were you right devs, now or in previous patches? Ammo effect changes from patch to patch and it gets a bit frustrating specially when you have no clear info about theses changes. Nothing changed in the development department about these aspects you say? Then it would be worse, cause that would mean your tester team is not aware of the way each patch affects the MP arena.
 

2. FM of 109E7 and 110E2. Absolutely unexpected behaviour; the Emil is not an E3 or E4, it's the bloody E7 but still can outturn an i-16. How is it possible an E7 can outturn an i-16...the ishak turn capabilities are horrible, nothing alike what we have read about it; il2 1946 had it way better tuned (both E7s and i16s). The 110E...well, not much needs to be added to what has been said many times. An UFO almost, it turns in a dime and can win a turn fight agains i16s and Yaks if they lose speed, it accelerates like a light fighter and can follow you in a climb and stay near stall there with you in i16/Mig/Lagg with no problem.

3. Il2 now seem made of crystal glass, most people in TAW would avoid flying it if they can or choose another plane if they know there's gonna be fighter presence, instead of a historic "Flying tank" we have the "Flying tickle me and i go down" that will get engine damage after the first burst from a 109 or a wing cut off from the first rapid flak.

4. Why LW 20mm HE has become so deadly? Generally a good first burst it's enough to kill a pilot or injure it to a point of unable to bail, damage the engine out of a fight or even kill a bomber like the Pe2 in one pass as we have been experiencing in current TAW edition; it has never been like these before. The combination of this with the weird physiology implemented has been appauling for VVS. If you check the stats and compare them to previous editions you'll find out situations that have never happened before, and also few stats are very simple and telling facts:

A. no red fighter squad in top 5 after more than one half of the campign (map 5 out of 8)...never happened before...i'm sure red pilots didn't forget their skill all of a sudden after last patch, did they? 
B. % of pilot deaths it's overwhelming compared to all previous editions. Personally by now -half way thorugh-  i have 2.5x times more deaths than in any other FULL TAW edition. My squad has twice the deaths than before and that applies for the rest of VVS squads
C. Top 20 in deaths are all VVS pilots.

D. The top 20 fighter pilots in streaks 17 are LW, and only 3 VVS; again, never happened before. 

Is this to balance the goodies allies have with the new Bodenplatte and coming Normandy? The thing is latest changes to the current product are degrading the MP enjoyment in general and specially for us VVS on the Eastern Front really, i hope we can have a good fix to this, and an optimized sim again.

Thanks for reading. 

 

.

Edited by 666GIAP_Chimango
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Definitely agree with you on gunners, *all gunners*, not just the myth of pe2 gunners having some sort of extra ability over the rest. 

 

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You are right Chima, another thing that really change is the incredible acceleration of the LW fighters and BF110's since last patch.

Now the relation about energy-speed-mass are out of the reality. You don´t need to ask a pilot from ww2 to determinate real engineering laws or in our case to keep close to the curves power-climb-speed that devs give to us for all planes.

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Most of the problems you tell here are shared with Lf side. 

 

-About the G effect I agree is exagerated. I thing now the black out happens at 6Gs or like that. When the pilots can hold on a short time quite more. Maybe after one tight turn they can not hold as many as before but 6Gs is too low limit. 

-Gunners. Well nothing to say about that. Is a general problem. Same with AA big caliber  guns sniping you at lower alts etc. Ridiculous that they just can snipe a plane on the deck aiming turning two weels. Just ridiculous. 

-About acceleration I didnt notice changes on that but I did not fly too much last month. 

-Spoting Problem. Yes, now is garbage and depends a lot on the grafic conf you have. Since there I am blind online.

-Bailing out is a nightmare now. I can not understand why you can not bail out if you are hurt. Is as easy as making a roll and let the gravity to do the rest. Same with speeds over 400kph. You shoud be able to pull negative Gs and just fly out of the cockpit. 

-About the 20mm i can garante you that the 20mm on the german side is pure garbage. So unconsistent and now you really need to kill the pilot. Flying blue I got pilot killed most of the times by Vss planes even my plane is not done. Is like 80% times. What i think that happens about the armament being shit is because net code is horrible again. I notice a lot of rolling scissors when I am hit on angles where the enemy has no sight on me etc. So I guess a lot of hits are just lost by the net code on both sides. But on the german side belibe me is difficult to kill somethign if you are not skilled to put a lot of ammo on the target. If you are at least with the 30mm you can garantee a kill with 3 hits. 

-About the I16 I allways notice that is quite hard plane to fly slow not just now. think also that a slow plane even making a tight turn is easy to caught him if you have some speed because you have to lead the shot not that much. Also the people flying low fuel is quite frecuent thing on the servers. What I can not understand is why other planes like the P51 with a wing that is not efficient at low speeds is that nimble or planes with 2000HP like tempest has no torque effect at low speeds or planes like P47 can pull insane tight turns with Flaps at cracy low speeds.

-About the E7 is not that different from E4. just suited for caring fuel tank. 

 

 

I consider Mp experience now complete garbage mostly due to the Shit spoting  and the net code Isues. (Some invisible plane bug apearing some times as well) 

So I just fly some squad Coops and some sorties just for making some video  but really not enjoying my time at the servers. 

For me TAW makes no sense anymore. Why to have a good performance when you can have the lotery of the invisible plane bug that suddenly apears when he shots and kill you) 

Edited by E69_geramos109
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We agree almost in everything...but not at all regarding LW 20mm and the damage on VVS planes. Check TAW stats, you will be surprised...and we know cause we spend more than 350 hours flying current edition already. I can start sharing the logs where we are put out of the fight in the first burst from a 109.

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S! 

 

Which German 20mm are you referring to? Ones in MG/FF or MG151/20? The munition used in the 20mm AA is totally different from plane mounted, it had more penetration and higher muzzle velocity. 

 

Regarding the Minengeschoß on MG151/20. It was regarded as the best HE for a 20mm cannon, even surpassing the mighty Hispano. Hispano has the velocity but less filler. Russian 20mm even less. 

 

I fly both sides and all suffer from "features" this game has. 

Edited by LLv34_Flanker
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42 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

 

 

 

Regarding the Minengeschoß on MG151/20. It was regarded as the best HE for a 20mm cannon, even surpassing the mighty Hispano. Hispano has the velocity but less filler. Russian 20mm even less. 

 

 

 

Not in all circumstances, due to its very thin wall construcion unless the 'explosion' is contained it is not much more than a big flashbang, a 20mm mineshelll HE explosion not really a very devasting thing, 17 grams, when compared to 72-85 grams of the 30mm mineshelll 

 

(generalising) 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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Ok lets see some points from both sides. 

 

I-16 can't outrun E-7.  And since Is not using the DB-601N engine, Is like the Emil 3 and still faster than I-16, specially after 2500mts. That Is not wrong. 

 

G limit. 

I discussed this before with squad mates and friends.

G limit is low? Yes from a certain point of view.

Average G tolerance of a person is 5G. Then you can go to sleep.

Now 5G IG Is the "safety" limit. After 6G things gets dark and after a few seconds K.O.

 

Now why i said point of view.

It all depends of the pilot training and experience to solve that. And since that time was not the Jet era is hard to imaginé a pilot with G training.

 

Taking the historical facts to apply the physiology on the sim is quite hard and problematic because that can give some periods when some nation has better G tolerance than other because the experience of the pilots at that moment in particular. 

Its ok 5G Is frustrating. Is like "YOU" are flying the plane and not someone with a little experience on high G movments. 

 

6G should be the top in all honesty without a G suit. 

 

The German guns are fine. There Is nothing to complain about it. Don't know why people still clomplaining about German 20's. They are no OP,  soviet fighters are made of wood. 

Il-2 case Is something totally different. Engine was the one of the easiest ways for shot down those things by words of German pilots. Don't know exactly how the Wings are behaiving after get a hit and i should investigate that.

 

But a thing wich i'm absolutly agree Is the DM of German planes against the russian cannon Is way to high.

For serious you need to almost drain the ammo for tale care of one. 

ShVAK was not the MG-151 or the Hispano in terms of HE power. But still a 20mm cannon

I survives pretty nice stuff against Russians with a 109 and don't get me start on the 190

The DM of Germans can also be object of discussion but on the Engine durability question. Way to hard to kill the engine, even with a weapon like the 12,7 of P-51D or P-47.

 

Short speech.

Game needs 6G tolerance at most

And Russian 20 a little bit more powerfull

And recheck if 109 and 190 engine durability Is ok

 

Why "RECHECK" the engine durability of Germans? Because for survive most of the times you have to reduce a lot the throttle. But there Is some exceptions. Flying germans i was able to push K4 to 100% with engine damage and it taked a while for fully break the engine.

 

That Is what i can add

 

Edited by -332FG-Ursus_

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S! 

 

It lacked some penetration the 20mm AA had or the other 20mm guns, but it had more than enough penetration to punch through the thin aircraft skin and blow up inside structure causing damage.

 

This correlates well with the Finnish Bf109G pilots' combat reports of the MG151/20's effectiveness against VVS planes. In over 90% of them result is either thick black smoke with fire or catastrophic damage/pilot kill. Finally a weapon that reliably downed adversaries compared to the. 303cal "peashooters" in previous planes. 

 

One of the few Finnish aces that flew a few sorties with the Bf109G-6/R6 aka wing gondolas attached was Kyösti Karhila. Had a privilege meeting him a few times before he moved to the Ghost Squadron. He said that the 3-cannon 109 obliterated the IL-2's midair. He got 3 IL-2 kills in one sortie within minutes, with ammo to spare. The gondolas were removed due the performance penalty though. 

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12 hours ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

IMO For VVS vs LW there is not better MP Test Bench than TAW server, because each campaigns keeps a chronological order from 41-43 and it runs 24/7 for a couple of months each campaign, and weeks long maps with same planesets and numerous missions to test different situations, repetidely time after time. From my experience latest patch it's terrible for MP competitions on the Eastern Front, and although i'm writing from a VVS fighter pilot perspective, will also add some general issues first:

General issues:

1. Dreadful visuals and spotting system where you can see a contact 60km away if the light is right and you downgrade your settings (even with "realistic" ON) but miss a plane 2km around, and if you want to have better spotting you have to degrade a lot your graphic settings turning your modern GPUs into a Commodore 64 experience. I'd rather have the 10km limit spotting again.

 

2. Gunners...all of them, ridiculous behaviour, specially in any level that's not the minimum one; so they go from blind donkeys to all seeing sniper cyborgs


3. Way exagereted G effect, now plane turning performance doesn´t matter much, it's all about pilots G.
 

4. Physiology also way too exagerated, if you are hit anywhere near the cockpit, bye bye, you won't be able to bail nor survive.


VVS issues (it's what i fly 90% of the time, LW will have their own for sure)

1. After later patches VVS early fighter ammo (combination of 1xShvak/Shaks; 1Shvak/UBS; 2xUBS)  have become way too weak compared to previous patches specially from last year (2018), these guns don´t do as much damage to 109s or any LW plane. So is it because LW planes have tougher DM now? Is it the VVS guns went really weaker? What is it? When were you right devs, now or in previous patches? Ammo effect changes from patch to patch and it gets a bit frustrating specially when you have no clear info about theses changes. Nothing changed in the development department about these aspects you say? Then it would be worse, cause that would mean your tester team is not aware of the way each patch affects the MP arena.
 

2. FM of 109E7 and 110E2. Absolutely unexpected behaviour; the Emil is not an E3 or E4, it's the bloody E7 but still can outturn an i-16. How is it possible an E7 can outturn an i-16...the ishak turn capabilities are horrible, nothing alike what we have read about it; il2 1946 had it way better tuned (both E7s and i16s). The 110E...well, not much needs to be added to what has been said many times. An UFO almost, it turns in a dime and can win a turn fight agains i16s and Yaks if they lose speed, it accelerates like a light fighter and can follow you in a climb and stay near stall there with you in i16/Mig/Lagg with no problem.

3. Il2 now seem made of crystal glass, most people in TAW would avoid flying it if they can or choose another plane if they know there's gonna be fighter presence, instead of a historic "Flying tank" we have the "Flying tickle me and i go down" that will get engine damage after the first burst from a 109 or a wing cut off from the first rapid flak.

4. Why LW 20mm HE has become so deadly? Generally a good first burst it's enough to kill a pilot or injure it to a point of unable to bail, damage the engine out of a fight or even kill a bomber like the Pe2 in one pass as we have been experiencing in current TAW edition; it has never been like these before. The combination of this with the weird physiology implemented has been appauling for VVS. If you check the stats and compare them to previous editions you'll find out situations that have never happened before, and also few stats are very simple and telling facts:

A. no red fighter squad in top 5 after more than one half of the campign (map 5 out of 8)...never happened before...i'm sure red pilots didn't forget their skill all of a sudden after last patch, did they? 
B. % of pilot deaths it's overwhelming compared to all previous editions. Personally by now -half way thorugh-  i have 2.5x times more deaths than in any other FULL TAW edition. My squad has twice the deaths than before and that applies for the rest of VVS squads
C. Top 20 in deaths are all VVS pilots.

D. The top 20 fighter pilots in streaks 17 are LW, and only 3 VVS; again, never happened before. 

Is this to balance the goodies allies have with the new Bodenplatte and coming Normandy? The thing is latest changes to the current product are degrading the MP enjoyment in general and specially for us VVS on the Eastern Front really, i hope we can have a good fix to this, and an optimized sim again.

Thanks for reading. 

 

.

 

General:

1. visability is terible now, i can see contacts miles away now, but at certen mid ranges 4-8km they become almost invisable. 

If your chasing someone you basicly cant check your 6 as youll never reacvier him again, airplanes are lost so easy that its unbilivable.

Also over forrests airplanes just disapere when your close 1-2km from them but you can clearly see them over same forrests from high.

And from what i can read on russian forum, they are working on fixing this stuff next year. It dosent stop me from playing as i know others are blined also.

 

2. it was like that since game was made, but its only Pe-2 Pe-2 Pe-2 Pe-2 Pe-2 Pe-2 Pe-2 Pe-2 propaganda is strong in this game so ppl think its only problem on that airplane, problem is in how AI of gunners work.

They decided to give every AI gunner its brain so they dont shere your position info betwen them self, but it seams that dont work as you still have all knowing AI gunners that even if they dont see you, know where you are, and will hitt you. So you have high demand on AI and no use from it, great job to block any big bombers by doing it this way.

If server have escorted bombers he can use low setting, if it has unescorted bombers then just use ace. When gunners are set to ace i only attack bomber when he makes big turns or when more players are vs 1 bomber.

 

3. I like G effects how they are, i dont wont them to change this.

 

4. They reduced that effect with last update, but i also dont understand why player cant bail out when hes going faster then 400kmh i think wind would blow him from cockpit if he relises his straps. 

Or why you cant bail out when your wonded, adrenalin gives you superpowers so i think if he wonts he would bail out if airplane is on fire, and your missing an arm, leg or have whole in guts, you would die later but you would bail out. But devs think players need to be aditionaly punished so we have what we have, i dont care mutch if they change it as i dont need to bail offten.

 

VVS:

1. i didnt noticed any changes, but i use mostly 12.7 and 23mm, as since they made all airplanes more durable 30mm and 23mm are only realistic guns in game.

 

2. they could turn like crazy since they were made so no suprises, i dont even see any rason why 110s should not be able to turn good when light considering their wings.

 

3. With Il-2 at one point one of the upates made its tail fall so easy, and i see since then Kirill constantly complains on russian forum that they broke it.

 

4. i dont see any differances, maybe it gt more deadly because of new physiology effects when HE explods next to pilot, but same is on them with vvs HE

 

Edited by 77.CountZero
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Bf-109 E-7 is exactly like the E-4 because it was an airframe conversion to fit additional pylons, E-4 on the other hand is just like the E-3 except that it has an automated propeller system. 

 

I-16 on the other hand has no business turning well because it's a fat barrell with no wings, it only turns relatively well because it's slower than the speed of smell.

Edited by Peen

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Shvak should be as powerful as MG151/20 in game, heavier round, faster muzzle velocity and good explosive/armor piercing capabilities=> WW2 GUN TABLES - GUN DATABASE . In game specially when combined with Shkas it's just a pee gun compared to MG151/20. Combination of Shvak/Shkas in Yak 1 and MiG-3 is very bad, also with twin UBS. I started to use a lot more 2x20mm on MiG3 (even when you have no tracers and can´t see where the rounds are going) and used the Lagg-3 a lot more during current TAW competition cause the only good gun the VVS has now it's the VYa23mm...and of course it's blocked in early maps by the project devs, but that's another story. Right now in the sim the single Shvak performance its same or even worse than the crappy MG151/15 of the 109F2; and we all know even LW fanboy will agree about how weak the 15mm was. In short=> 20mm Shvak  should be checked and modified.


Why is the il2 Sturmovik, a known flying tank so fragile right now? See, it's a combinations of things, maybe not only one, and all combined made the sim lose consistency. The combination of new pilot physiology plus MG151/20 modelling, plus the weakness of VVS plane performance and guns  it's degrading the parity we used to have over the years of this project when BOS and BOM arrived. Maybe it's healthier to just stay in the Western Front till the VVS gets some love from devs again 😄

 

6 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

The gondolas were removed due the performance penalty though. 


Exactly, something it doesn't happen here where the penalty it's very low, almost inextistant...109F4s and G2s can still go rocket mode even with them on. 

 

Ursus: read carefully, i never said outRUN, but outTURN. If they both lose speed, at low speeds the i-16 should eat an E7 for breakfast...it doesnt happen.

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HE on LW planes explode like a hand grenade, that is OP.

In this table http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html

You can see that VVS 20mm and 12.7mm have more than a 15% of velocity than LW weapons in same caliber. Than means more energy and more penetration.

LW had more rate of fire but we are talking about how weak are the 20mm and 12.7 VVS ammo

 

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25 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Necathor said:

HE on LW planes explode like a hand grenade, that is OP.

In this table http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html

You can see that VVS 20mm and 12.7mm have more than a 15% of velocity than LW weapons in same caliber. Than means more energy and more penetration.

LW had more rate of fire but we are talking about how weak are the 20mm and 12.7 VVS ammo

 

The red 20mm penetrates quite more than the german 20mm. On the other hand the 151 has more He load and spolete that makes the round explode after penetrating the first skin. 

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11 hours ago, Peen said:

I-16 on the other hand has no business turning well because it's a fat barrell with no wings, it only turns relatively well because it's slower than the speed of smell.

 

I-16 wings might be small but it also weights only 1.9 tons, making it more or less equal in wing loading to a Spitfire Mk V. It also has the third highest power to weight ratio in the sim, behind only the +25lb Spit LF Mk IX and 1.98 ata 109 K-4.

 

 

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S! 

 

First of all the myth of IL-2 being an almost invulnerable flying behemoth of death is just that, a myth. The only thick armor was behind the pilot, rest was 5-6mm whic is perfectly penetrable by 20mm AA, for example. Even Emelianenko, a Gvardija pilot of IL-2, said that the German 20mm easily penetrated the engine cowling armor. It was effective against hand held guns, but anything bigger did penetrate it. 

 

Also the armor was not in tail or wings = relatively easy to shoot to pieces. Why waste ammo on an armor plate when other areas present a better target? Also cockpit sides were thin, fully penetrable by 12.7mm or bigger. Finnish Brewster pilots used this weakness, shot in from the side after disabling the gunner. 109's shot wing root or cockpit from slightly above, the 20mm did it's work. 

 

I see most of the whining comes from the fact that people have no idea how a plane is actually built and maintained and/or have not worked with planes at all. It is quite eye opening when you see for yourself how things are, breaks quite a few myths and puts things in perspective: we are playing a game. Reality was totally different. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

Shvak should be as powerful as MG151/20 in game, heavier round, faster muzzle velocity and good explosive/armor piercing capabilities=> WW2 GUN TABLES - GUN DATABASE . In game specially when combined with Shkas it's just a pee gun compared to MG151/20. Combination of Shvak/Shkas in Yak 1 and MiG-3 is very bad, also with twin UBS.

 

Sorry but your uninformed whining i reaching new levels.

You should maybe take a look at this

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

 

or this

 

to get an idea of the actual gun power comparison.

 

Edited by =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand

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19 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

First of all the myth of IL-2 being an almost invulnerable flying behemoth of death is just that, a myth. The only thick armor was behind the pilot, rest was 5-6mm whic is perfectly penetrable by 20mm AA, for example. Even Emelianenko, a Gvardija pilot of IL-2, said that the German 20mm easily penetrated the engine cowling armor. It was effective against hand held guns, but anything bigger did penetrate it. 

 

Also the armor was not in tail or wings = relatively easy to shoot to pieces. Why waste ammo on an armor plate when other areas present a better target? Also cockpit sides were thin, fully penetrable by 12.7mm or bigger. Finnish Brewster pilots used this weakness, shot in from the side after disabling the gunner. 109's shot wing root or cockpit from slightly above, the 20mm did it's work. 

 

I see most of the whining comes from the fact that people have no idea how a plane is actually built and maintained and/or have not worked with planes at all. It is quite eye opening when you see for yourself how things are, breaks quite a few myths and puts things in perspective: we are playing a game. Reality was totally different. 

 

 

Very good point. Despite all that though, would it be reasonable to expect the il2 to be slightly more resilient to damage relative to other planes? This is generally what I see in the game, as someone who almost never flies them but sees them get hit. What I find is that people who have a favourite plane that they fly all the time generally say that 'their' plane is really fragile and the guns are rubbish, compared to people who fly against 'their' plane.

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17 minutes ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

 

Sorry but your uninformed whining i reaching new levels.

You should maybe take a look at this

http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html

 

Very funny; you link the same link i linked; read better next time and don´t rush against the wall like this.

Whining you say? Sure, we don't want you guys to have that monopoly anymore.

12 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

 What I find is that people who have a favourite plane that they fly all the time generally say that 'their' plane is really fragile and the guns are rubbish, compared to people who fly against 'their' plane.

Never in four years in my case, it has become obvious a couple of patches back.  And regarding il2 those guys are right, IL2 DM it's broken.

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S! 

 

Resiliency to damage really depends. If you hit the thick armored bulkhead behind the gunner in a late model IL-2, then possibility of damage is less, but not ruled out. Control rods/cables run in the rear fuselage and are not made of stalinium, pun intended. If you sever them, no armor in the world will save you, the plane goes down. 

 

People fail to see in their passion that all it takes is one misplaced bullet to cause catastrophic results. Sometimes you get lucky and even a hail of bullets do nothing more than holes. But even those non-catastrophic hits degrade the plane. 

 

Chimango seems to fall in the same trap as many others, worshipping kinetic energy and expecting any target to disintegrate upon slightest touch. A weapon is not defined by it's KE abilities but the overall performance. KE diminishes quite fast over distance, but chemical energy aka explosive energy does not. As long as the fuze works, full amount of CE will be delivered. This is why MG151/20 is regarded as one of the best AC mounted cannons with Hispano or Shvak. No fanboyism there. 

 

If a DM is even halfway done it will take in count other things too than armor or amount of wing spars. And forgets using an overblown myth for example as a basis in making a DM. Devs do balance between realism and playability as DM and FM are resource hungry beasts. And then there is the eye candy and AI too wanting their share of resources. So maybe ppl should calm down and look how things work in general, not in some single situations. 

 

Edit: I base my observations in over 20 years of work with military planes and equipment. 

Edited by LLv34_Flanker
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14 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

 

Chimango seems to fall in the same trap as many others, worshipping kinetic energy and expecting any target to disintegrate upon slightest touch. 

 

Devs do balance between realism and playability as DM and FM are resource hungry beasts. And then there is the eye candy and AI too wanting their share of resources. So maybe ppl should calm down and look how things work in general, not in some single situations. 

 

Not falling in any trap, i don't excpect what you say...you are falling in the trap of mis interpreting the issue apparently. Which leads to the second statment i quote from you: i agree, and because it's between realism and playability this is what changed the whole experience when for many years was enjoyable with an all round parity in the Eastern Front between models chosen for BOS/BOM and their behaviuor. 

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S! 

 

The game has changed so much that I do not even care anymore. Best engine in the business, you know :) Before "The other game" gets more content, BoX is the only one providing at least some level of action. So no hard feelings Chimango :) Have a good holiday season. 

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1 hour ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

Resiliency to damage really depends. If you hit the thick armored bulkhead behind the gunner in a late model IL-2, then possibility of damage is less, but not ruled out. Control rods/cables run in the rear fuselage and are not made of stalinium, pun intended. If you sever them, no armor in the world will save you, the plane goes down. 

 

People fail to see in their passion that all it takes is one misplaced bullet to cause catastrophic results. Sometimes you get lucky and even a hail of bullets do nothing more than holes. But even those non-catastrophic hits degrade the plane. 

 

Chimango seems to fall in the same trap as many others, worshipping kinetic energy and expecting any target to disintegrate upon slightest touch. A weapon is not defined by it's KE abilities but the overall performance. KE diminishes quite fast over distance, but chemical energy aka explosive energy does not. As long as the fuze works, full amount of CE will be delivered. This is why MG151/20 is regarded as one of the best AC mounted cannons with Hispano or Shvak. No fanboyism there. 

 

If a DM is even halfway done it will take in count other things too than armor or amount of wing spars. And forgets using an overblown myth for example as a basis in making a DM. Devs do balance between realism and playability as DM and FM are resource hungry beasts. And then there is the eye candy and AI too wanting their share of resources. So maybe ppl should calm down and look how things work in general, not in some single situations. 

 

Edit: I base my observations in over 20 years of work with military planes and equipment. 

 

I agree, just observe the evolution towards larger and larger calibers in LW, VVS and the western airforces. If kinetic energy was the most efficient way to achieve air kills, we'd be seeing hyper-velocity tungsten-carbide subcaliber rounds like in the tank guns. But we don't.

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A 20mm mineshelll has +- 18 grams of PETN explosive, and a very thin drawn steel case which produces fairly insignificant shrapnel

 

Just as a comparison a modern US mk3a2 offensive concussion grenadede has 225 grams of TNT (equivalent 135 grams PETN) and an expected casualty radius of 2 metres 

 

I just feel some peoples expectations of 20mm mineshelll are way too overestimated without an understanding of the bigger picture

 

30mm is  justifiably a (4 times larger) different story 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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S!

 

 @Dakpilot In open air the 20mm for sure ain´t nothing to call home about, but inside a structure or a fuel tank the story is different. Brits ran tests of the ammo type and found it effective. Has nothing to do with expectations. Facts state it was a good round, nothing mythical there :)

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Guys. Most important thing Is the actual underperforming of Russian 20mm because by experience most people complains about it. What i didn't saw is an actual gametrack on the clomplaining.

 

What i suggest Is test every cannon on every Russian plane. Its a task to do. But then you can see the difference between English American and German 20 and the Russian one.

 

Pretty simple.

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ShVAK were good too, just like they were for many years in this sim, so i don't understand why change it and make it such a weak cannon now, specially when compared to it's german counterpart. Even the smoke effect, did you check that? When you are hit by a MG151/20 the cloud of smoke looks like a 37mm hit, looks like a hand granade explosion...in comparison look at the tiny cigarette smoke a Shvak does in comparison. Well, that's the same effect the guns have. A single MG151/20 does more damage than a twin 2x20mm Shvak hit. The track i just checked from a mission 2 hours ago in TAW; a 109F4 takes 1xvya23mm + 6x20mm from Shvak and all damaged it just keeps fighting and then dives away like nothing from the fight; meters from there, a La5 takes a single shot from another 109F4, a huge cloud from that explosion and instant PK. 

I'm compiling all data in tracks i recorded over the last month in current TAW, i'll have to make a video, and will upload it so you have a clearer picture of what is going on.

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1 hour ago, Dakpilot said:

 

A 20mm mineshelll has +- 18 grams of PETN explosive, and a very thin drawn steel case which produces fairly insignificant shrapnel

 

Just as a comparison a modern US mk3a2 offensive concussion grenadede has 225 grams of TNT (equivalent 135 grams PETN) and an expected casualty radius of 2 metres 

 

 


Producing little shrapnel ist exactly the point of a MInengeschoss. They wanted the energy to act on the plane surface and not on the shelling.

Anti personell shells are intentionally different.

I think you misunderstand the concept of a MInengeschoss.

3 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

ShVAK were good too, just like they were for many years in this sim, so i don't understand why change it and make it such a weak cannon now, specially when compared to it's german counterpart. Even the smoke effect, did you check that? When you are hit by a MG151/20 the cloud of smoke looks like a 37mm hit, looks like a hand granade explosion...in comparison look at the tiny cigarette smoke a Shvak does in comparison. Well, that's the same effect the guns have. A single MG151/20 does more damage than a twin 2x20mm Shvak hit. The track i just checked from a mission 2 hours ago in TAW; a 109F4 takes 1xvya23mm + 6x20mm from Shvak and all damaged it just keeps fighting and then dives away like nothing from the fight; meters from there, a La5 takes a single shot from another 109F4, a huge cloud from that explosion

I'm compiling all data in tracks i recorded over the last month in current TAW, i'll have to make a video, and will upload it so you have a clearer picture of what is going on.


So you are just ignoring all data and want to ramble on, is that it? Good luck With your report mate!

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Video is gonna take a while; in the meantime just two quick screnshots from the track i mentioned above:

Effect of Shvak 20mm hit
BEmgXqp.jpg

Effect of MG151/20mm hit
eLj7Ytr.jpg

Yes, a cloud almost as big as the La-5 itself (btw was instant PK) by a granade launcher 109.
 

12 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

I-16 wings might be small but it also weights only 1.9 tons, making it more or less equal in wing loading to a Spitfire Mk V. It also has the third highest power to weight ratio in the sim, behind only the +25lb Spit LF Mk IX and 1.98 ata 109 K-4.

 

 


Sorry i missed this. Exactly SuperEtendard, and it was very well represented in our dear old 1946; i-16t24 would eat a E7 for breakfast at low speeds, in instant turn with good speed the E7 wouldn´t follow it, and if they went very slow the Ishak would destroy the 109 in a slow speed constant climb. It would climb as...well, an Ishak..a little mule!

Don´t you guys remember? I do...we had a lot of fun blasting E7s when they were not careful in ADW. The i-16t24 in current il2 it's really weak.

This is what would be more like it...very far from what we have right now:
UBJr6Fm.jpg

...

 

 

Edited by 666GIAP_Chimango
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1 hour ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

So you are just ignoring all data and want to ramble on, is that it? Good luck With your report mate!

 

i understand your point of view....  from my point of view... all we are ramble 

 

As said Flanker 

4 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

Devs do balance between realism and playability as DM and FM are resource hungry beasts

 

On fact ,we want it ir or not want, all we played a balanced game, because... is true,  maybe you have all the needed data but you dont have the complex DM and FM needed for representate it...

 

In future... some patch for sure induce some changes  that affected to playability again , maybe is a new system like G system for pilots, maybe they can develop more complex DM or FM or maybe, is a puntual adjustament in some point ( increase efect of Minesglosh , more durable tail for il2, etc, etc ) i doubt can be new data but who knows...

 

I think what try show chima , based on stats of last TAW ( i agree is a excelent data bank )  is on fact,  fly east planes on east front is more crappy than ever... the objective balance of game we have until now, becomes  broke  whit last patch... principal cause seems is low power of russian ammo... but on true can be many things, all induced by limitions of DM , FM and i think netcode..... again some balance work is needed, of course this is more obvious usually  vvs players :) ,  and TAW estadistics can take like a evidence.

 

Thats all for me.

Im sure devs care about all of this.

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On 12/16/2019 at 6:59 PM, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

Chima's initial post

 

Having flown for both sides I definitely agree with all of your points.

 

On 12/17/2019 at 12:25 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

geramos' post

 

I have a different experience than yours. For me the 20mm is very deadly and knock pilot's unconscious very often now. The spotting for me has improved considerably from far away but, sometimes, from close range, the contacts blend in too much with the ground. A lot of people have better spotting than before but, I'm afraid, there are more people with more issues with the visibility than not. I hope the devs can work on this again in order to make it more consistent across the board. Some guys in my previous unit could see stuff way before me and others just couldnt see a plane sitting 1km from their faces. It is very weird.

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When I saw this, I fired up a quick mission in Yak1b to see how it does. I shot down 5 axis planes in the first try and still had spare ammo. And I`m not the greatest shot. There`s absolutely no difference in MP and SP regarding any aspects of the DM or ammo. So, I can`t tell how it is under performing. Nothing has changed in the latest patch.

 

About the G forces, I think it`s spot on in the game as it is. It has deleted the most bizarre flight moves in the combat, I`m sure that those moves were never done in RL. I`m sure many people here were used to pull those moves without penalty and that`s why it feels unfair now. It affects much the LW too, you can pull yourself unconscious in high speed dives for example. I think it`s made air combat more real than ever.

 

Overall, game works quite well. Of course for example DM model can always improve but overall it`s all right.

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3 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

When I saw this, I fired up a quick mission in Yak1b to see how it does. I shot down 5 axis planes in the first try and still had spare ammo. And I`m not the greatest shot. There`s absolutely no difference in MP and SP regarding any aspects of the DM or ammo. So, I can`t tell how it is under performing. Nothing has changed in the latest patch.


All good Zami, but useless test...we are not talking about Yak-1b ammo combination, check first post please early VVS combo. It's early single Shvak/shkas combination and twin 2xUBS like you find in MiG-3 and Yak-1..also these compared to MG151/20 effect. Anyway, shooting ai has nothing to do with shooting humans, we talk about competitive enviroment, netcode, etc.

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15 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:


All good Zami, but useless test...we are not talking about Yak-1b ammo combination, check first post please early VVS combo. It's early single Shvak/shkas combination and twin 2xUBS like you find in MiG-3 and Yak-1..also these compared to MG151/20 effect. Anyway, shooting ai has nothing to do with shooting humans, we talk about competitive enviroment, netcode, etc.

Far from useless. It confirms that at least Yak-1b works just as it used to work.

 

Also, what has the enviroment to do with the weapons testing? Interesting pov. DM and guns are exactly same. That is the way you test things to be sure, theres no other way. AI has absolutely nothing to do with it. 

 

Edit: Wen`t back in with early Yak, this time 4 planes. Not so good but as I said, I`m not the greatest shot.

Edited by LLv24_Zami
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I like the G-system as it is now. People were used to make some maneouvres that I am sure weren't realistic at all. If you don't kill that much because of it, well... Guns seems to be doing the same amount of damage. The only thing that I can agree with OP is the visibility.

Edited by LF_Gallahad
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Why would one assume the DM has changed if there was no mention of any of this stuff in any of recent patch notes?

 

the guns always feel stronger on the enemy plane, no matter what side you fly.

Edited by IV./JG51-H_Stiglitz

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7 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Guns seems to be doing the same amount of damage. The only thing that I can agree with OP is the visibility.


Based on how many hours of testing flying VVS Migs3 and Yaks1 on the eastern front during current patch?
 

The only thing is the visibility? You then think that for example the turn performance of i-16 is just fine and gunners are very good even after all the videos in the internet including the one posted here? Ok...you seem to be very simplistic, but i respect you.
 

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21 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:


Based on how many hours of testing flying VVS Migs3 and Yaks1 on the eastern front during current patch?
 

The only thing is the visibility? You then think that for example the turn performance of i-16 is just fine and gunners are very good even after all the videos in the internet including the one posted here? Ok...you seem to be very simplistic, but i respect you.
 

 

Sorry, I did not know you were a Mikoyan test pilot. Jokes aside, the issue that has more importance is the visibility issue.

 

The thing is that some vocal minorities (always the same people) take advantge of this to keep on their conspirancy train on BIAS. 

 

I won't say anything on the gunners as this is not about the current patch but a general problem, thats why I think you are mixing things. Altough I thank you to answer me so kindly. I suggest taking a break if things are too hard for you after expending so many hours with the last patch released yesterday. There are more issues in my oppinion like the DM of the 47 engine and such.

 

Btw I've seen enough BIAS claims on this forum that I think we could write a novel. From "the mission starts at dawn so the Axis players have advantage with the sun " to "the Me-262 shouldn't be defeated by any prop".

 

It just... tiring.

 

PS: To be clear, you are saying that the last updated borked the visibility OK but you still implying that you still don't like the Gs and there is some german bias going on again? Not OK from me.

Edited by LF_Gallahad
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On 12/16/2019 at 3:59 PM, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

3. Way exagereted G effect, now plane turning performance doesn´t matter much, it's all about pilots G.
 

4. Physiology also way too exagerated, if you are hit anywhere near the cockpit, bye bye, you won't be able to bail nor survive.

Dont agree with those, I fly and experience G forces twice to 3 times per week and what we have in game is pretty good .

 

Damage model needs work , IMHO early war is better than late war , P47, FW 190 and 110s wings get ripped off from the root way to often and easy, looks and feel arcadish.

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