Normandy map and Battle of britain planes

[Gambit21]

9 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Well... one could say that about Battle of Stalingrad, Battle of Moscow, Battle of Kuban...

 

Well remember that 3 other Eastern Front releases did not precede those. 

I think BoK was the "OK, I'll pay for one more Eastern Front release, then it's time to move on" juncture for many of us - Jason and 1C (very wisely in my humble opinion) were wise enough to perceive as much and thus BoBp. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

I think a North Africa/Mediterranean expansion would sell.  It would have a set of aircraft that is wildly diverse, everything from the last biplanes, to the A36 and early P38s, a whole raft of Regia Aeronautica aircraft, etc. And it would fill a gap for a lot of us that won't go backwards to CloD.

 

Some of the best missions I have made, and my best flying experience were over the sands of North Africa, it would be great to return there in this sim.

[Guster]

I'd be perfectly happy with just a small Lapino-style 'meanwhile somewhere in the Mediterranean' desert map for some quick & dirty Hurri/Kittyhawk vs Messer action 'abroad'.

[BlitzPig_EL]

2 minutes ago, Guster said:

I'd be perfectly happy with just a small Lapino-style 'meanwhile somewhere in the Mediterranean' desert map for some quick & dirty Hurri/Kittyhawk vs Messer action 'abroad'.

For that we would need P40s with the proper, usable, higher boost levels that the USAAF and RAF actually used in combat.  That said I'd be very happy with a map like this.

[Alexmarine]

4 minutes ago, Guster said:

 quick & dirty Hurri/Kittyhawk vs Macchi/Messer action

 

Corrected 

[Guster]

Just now, Alexmarine said:

 

Corrected 

That too!

[Alexmarine]

We need a sand filter to the 109 though (and the Spit MkV)

[Guster]

4 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

For that we would need P40s with the proper, usable, higher boost levels that the USAAF and RAF actually used in combat.  That said I'd be very happy with a map like this.

 

I wasn't aware of this. Maybe this is why the Warhawk and I don't get along very well, maybe I'm just particular and difficult.

 

1 minute ago, Alexmarine said:

We need a sand filter to the 109 though (and the Spit MkV)

 

True. But I could live with the scenario not being entirely accurate and just pretend both sides figured out how to produce something like the Aboukir filter locally (from surplus field kitchen colanders and army undies or whatever). Thinking about it, the Spits delivered to Malta in '42 were beefed up a bit, weren't they? Different radios, wings, windscreen and such.

[Gambit21]

16 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Well... one could say that about Battle of Stalingrad, Battle of Moscow, Battle of Kuban...

 

As pointed out earlier, 3 eastern front releases did not precede those.

 

16 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Conventional wisdom was that anything with an Il-2 in it shouldn't interest Western customers (and in fact, a lot of people were quite ignorant when Il-2 came out as a 'niche sim').
.

 

All true, but this and western  customer fatigue with Russia are not mutually exclusive. 

 

16 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Well... one could say that about Battle of Stalingrad, Battle of Moscow, Battle of Kuban...

 

As pointed out earlier, 3 eastern front releases did not precede those.

 

16 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Conventional wisdom was that anything with an Il-2 in it shouldn't interest Western customers (and in fact, a lot of people were quite ignorant when Il-2 came out as a 'niche sim').
.

 

All true, but this and western  customer fatigue with Russia are not mutually exclusive. 

 

[CountZero]

24 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

As pointed out earlier, 3 eastern front releases did not precede those.

 

 

All true, but this and western  customer fatigue with Russia are not mutually exclusive. 

 

So realisticly what you think is next DLC, PTO ? where is airplane data for anything els then Zero, nothing changed in last 2 years, they didnt hire some japan translator guy or get new airplane data... Where els can they go if not finish east front and still have 5v5 airplanes and campaign on reasonable size map or another channel map just in even earlyer then BoN state... there is not many options if they keep same system or level of detail.

Edited November 19, 2021 by CountZero

[357th_KW]

2 hours ago, Guster said:

I'd be perfectly happy with just a small Lapino-style 'meanwhile somewhere in the Mediterranean' desert map for some quick & dirty Hurri/Kittyhawk vs Messer action 'abroad'.

This is a great idea.  Some small stretch of the western desert would be an amazing addition.

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

As pointed out earlier, 3 eastern front releases did not precede those.

 

All true, but this and western  customer fatigue with Russia are not mutually exclusive. 

 

Each to their own? I'd have been more excited to have a flyable Tu-2 or Ju-88 than to have the entire BoBP planeset. It was the first module I didn't anticipate getting (but started counting the months until the module after it would be announced). The one aircraft I was excited about in it was the Fw-190F... although I did rediscover a love for the Mustang.

 

I'm not typical a typical consumer. But you aren't necessarily either. In fact the vast majority of the market doesn't spend time on the forum... let alone get into these pseudo-arguments  I don't think that us 'forum geniuses' necessarily understand the market or each other or the developments costs that well. So you may be right, but we have no way of knowing if there was a widespread 'fatigue'. My personal suspicion is that people would get more interested over time if they learned more about the war in the East... it certainly seemed that way in the original Il-2... but I don't really know.

 

P.S. Also, something to think about:  BoK had two Eastern modules preceding it... would one more module do that much worse? Honestly, the earlier eastern modules had a lot of overlap (e.g. Bf-109G2 and Bf-109G4), and the engine was less developed during the BoS/BoM era - yet they were viable. They likely had smaller budgets to match the smaller sales - but they were viable. So, it might be more optimal to do BoB or Korea, but I'm pretty sure they could find a way to do a more modest Leningrad or '45 East module as well.

[Gambit21]

10 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

P.S. Also, something to think about:  BoK had two Eastern modules preceding it... would one more module do that much worse? 

 

My guess...to some degree yes.

[BraveSirRobin]

6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

My guess...to some degree yes.

Not late war.  Late war would sell.  Especially if they included something like the P-63.

[Avimimus]

23 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

My guess...to some degree yes.

 

Well, you could be right  

 

I'll be open-minded as well as sceptical.

[Gambit21]

10 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Not late war.  Late war would sell.  Especially if they included something like the P-63.

 

Perhaps, and Yak-3 etc...still more 109's and 190's but might have done OK, or well even. Who knows.

 

I think the BobP made the "more of the same" on the Axis end of things easier to stomach with much of the audience...the 109 and 190 fans notwithstanding of course.

 

Fast forward to now, we've had 2 more releases featuring 109's and 190's as the Axis aircraft (as of course it must) So now that prospective late war Eastern Front release with yet more 109's and 190's is perhaps a bit more untenable. I'm not under the illusion that I represent every western customer, but I'd put good money a great many will be after Normandy, fatigued with this setup, especially knowing where it could go. 

 

I'm a fan of the 109 and 190 btw...after Normandy I've just seen enough of them.

I'm not against more EF aircraft btw. I'd like to see the Storch, a float Ju-52, and FW 200 among other things, with gameplay dynamics to match. 

 

 

[Alexmarine]

14 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 P-63.

 

BraveSirRobin suggesting a Manchuria 1945 module? Impossible

[BraveSirRobin]

50 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Perhaps, and Yak-3 etc...still more 109's and 190's but might have done OK, or well even. Who knows.

 

I think the BobP made the "more of the same" on the Axis end of things easier to stomach with much of the audience...the 109 and 190 fans notwithstanding of course.

 

Fast forward to now, we've had 2 more releases featuring 109's and 190's as the Axis aircraft (as of course it must) So now that prospective late war Eastern Front release with yet more 109's and 190's is perhaps a bit more untenable. I'm not under the illusion that I represent every western customer, but I'd put good money a great many will be after Normandy, fatigued with this setup, especially knowing where it could go. 

 

I'm a fan of the 109 and 190 btw...after Normandy I've just seen enough of them.

I'm not against more EF aircraft btw. I'd like to see the Storch, a float Ju-52, and FW 200 among other things, with gameplay dynamics to match. 

 

 

It’s not the 109s and 190s that will sell this.  It’s the other stuff.  They will include the 109s and 190s because they don’t really have a choice.  Maybe blame Arado, Junkers, and Heinkel for not stuffing enough cash into the right pockets in the German Air Ministry.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Give me Hawk 81s against Ki27s and Ki43s please.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by BlitzPig_EL

[Avimimus]

I'd actually go for a Ki-43. It might benefit from careful examination of internal ricochets (etc.) in hopes of finding a justification for making rifle calibre machine guns just a little bit more effective though...

 

  

2 hours ago, Alexmarine said:

BraveSirRobin suggesting a Manchuria 1945 module? Impossible

 

There is some evidence that the Soviet Union broke their lend-lease agreement and deployed P-63 fighters in Europe. The it is a possible aircraft for a Poland 1945 scenario.

 

 

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Perhaps, and Yak-3 etc...still more 109's and 190's but might have done OK, or well even. Who knows.

 

I think the BobP made the "more of the same" on the Axis end of things easier to stomach with much of the audience...the 109 and 190 fans notwithstanding of course.

 

Fast forward to now, we've had 2 more releases featuring 109's and 190's as the Axis aircraft (as of course it must) So now that prospective late war Eastern Front release with yet more 109's and 190's is perhaps a bit more untenable. I'm not under the illusion that I represent every western customer, but I'd put good money a great many will be after Normandy, fatigued with this setup, especially knowing where it could go.

 

Eastern Front fatigue could very easily be remedied by adding a few exotic Luftwaffe planes.

 

109G-10, Fw-190A-9, He-162, Ta-152 (collector), some twin engine plane.

 

Russians get Yak-3, La-7, Yak-9U (collector), IL-2 '44 variant, or more optimistically, an IL-10, and probably a Tu-2.

 

To my eyes at least, that's a very attractive package.

 

10 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

There is some evidence that the Soviet Union broke their lend-lease agreement and deployed P-63 fighters in Europe. The it is a possible aircraft for a Poland 1945 scenario.

 

 

Until this can be proven decisively, I don't think the devs will go for it.

 

While I would like the P-63, there are already 3 very strong Russian late-war fighters to select.

[Gambit21]

46 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Eastern Front fatigue could very easily be remedied by adding a few exotic Luftwaffe planes.

 

109G-10, Fw-190A-9, He-162, Ta-152 (collector), some twin engine plane.

 

 

 

I know what you're trying to say...but absolutely no 109 or 190 regardless of how rare is "exotic" at this juncture.

Fleshing the Eastern Front out with a DLC map, and over time some collector planes that expand the gameplay (recon, transport, float planes etc) would be great however.

Especially considering how the team creates their aircraft to a higher and higher standard...I'd love to see some pontoons on that Ju-52 already.

 

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

It’s not the 109s and 190s that will sell this.  It’s the other stuff.  They will include the 109s and 190s because they don’t really have a choice.  Maybe blame Arado, Junkers, and Heinkel for not stuffing enough cash into the right pockets in the German Air Ministry.

 

 

How much fun would this be....

 

 

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I know what you're trying to say...but absolutely no 109 or 190 regardless of how rare is "exotic" at this juncture.

 

I meant that the He-162 and Ta-152 were the exotics. The 162 should theoretically be more nimble than the 262, while the Ta is the fastest piston engine in the sim. Both together would be a selling point for fair number of people who like high performance end-war tech. Maybe some possibility of the German twin engine entry being more exotic than another obsolete bomber; but the options are very limited on that end, especially after the Ar-234 has been exhausted.

 

Russia can't get anything too exotic, unfortunately. But flying a Yak-3 around 30MPH faster than the 9, with an extra gun to boot, would be a pretty novel experience.

 

Also the 9U has even more speed plus a lot of armament combinations (potentially). An La-7 with some extra speed and an extra cannon. All Russian planes would have enhanced handling/performance/guns. So, while nothing is new on their side (barring a Tu-2), it's all performing to the highest standard we've yet seen.

 

The only really weak entries in a '45 Eastern Front DLC are the 109 and 190; and another Sturmovik that isn't an IL-10 would be fairly meh. Worst case scenario is that the German bomber is another Ju-88 copy along with what I've mentioned. That still leaves 6/10 planes either new or substantially improved to what we have.

 

That's not a bad deal. Best case scenario, 8/10 are improvements.

 

Compare to Normandy, where we have the usual 109/190/Ju-88 filler, a P-47 slightly faster than what we already had, a P-51 also slightly faster but with weaker armament, and a faster Spitfire with, again, either equal or retrograde (talking about the 30 cals here) armament to the Spit IX.

 

That leaves only the Mosquito, Me-410, and Ar-234 as unique entries. The rest are some degree of repetition without huge performance/weapon gains. The Typhoon is something of a grey area; similar to the Tempest but obviously not identical. Functionally however, in terms of performance and weapons, it's more similar to the Tempest than a Ta-152 would be to the Fw-190D.

 

Ultimately, the end-war Russian DLC would provide more content for dogfighting and single-seater enthusiasts than Normandy.

 

Not trying to demean Normandy. I'm just saying there's plenty on offer for a final '45 DLC, once you get over the dullness of the (likely) map zone itself.

 

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

Fleshing the Eastern Front out with a DLC map, and over time some collector planes that expand the gameplay (recon, transport, float planes etc) would be great however.

 

I think recon could definitely work, but until the last fighters of the war are in the sim, I doubt non-combat planes are going to take development precedence.

[=621=Samikatz]

I think the 5v5 standard needs to be dropped and we need to accept the Allies simply fielded a wider variety of airplanes. Normandy could've done the same honestly (and probably should've considering one side is representing two air forces!). If we do late war VVS stuff, let them have 6 or even 7 planes so they can have everything a Soviet pilot could dream of and we don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel with planes that saw basically no combat like the 162 and we can call the East a complete experience

[Alexmarine]

4 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

 

  

 

There is some evidence that the Soviet Union broke their lend-lease agreement and deployed P-63 fighters in Europe. The it is a possible aircraft for a Poland 1945 scenario.

 

 

 

Please, provide this evidence. Even Yefim Gordon in his monography about the P-39/63 in Soviet service (which I have a copy of) couldn't find any real proof of it except hearsays and forum reported talks 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Alexmarine

[Trooper117]

9 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Give me Hawk 81s against Ki27s and Ki43s please.

 

Agreed.

I'll keep saying this till I'm blue in the face... you do 'not' need carriers to have an expansion to take on the Japanese Empire.

If it's the current games limitations that does not allow the use of carriers, then there are other options to fly and fight against the Japanese.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Battle of the Burma Road...   

 

 

Tigers attacking the Salween River bridge.

 

Sounds pretty good to me.

Edited November 20, 2021 by BlitzPig_EL

[BraveSirRobin]

17 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

How much fun would this be....

 

 

I’m sure the P-47 guys would be happy to see something that they have a chance to kill in a dogfight…. But otherwise, meh…

[Gambit21]

3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I’m sure the P-47 guys would be happy to see something that they have a chance to kill in a dogfight…. But otherwise, meh…

 

Well I’d much rather have a float Ju-52. 

[Avimimus]

5 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I’m sure the P-47 guys would be happy to see something that they have a chance to kill in a dogfight…. But otherwise, meh…

 

Well, I think some of these planes would be more interesting if they act as artillery spotters. The Stinson L-5, Fi-156, and U-2VS... were often effectively unarmed - but if they are controlling one (or more) artillery batteries than their armament becomes greater than any other plane of the war.

 

I think it could be a lot of fun to provide detailed fire correction to hit enemy artillery pieces (guiding counter-batter fire), or ships, or even trying to guide artillery onto tanks in multiplayer. While the L-5, Austen, U-2VS, or Fi-156 are ideal as hedge-hoping spotters - the job could also be done by Fw-189 or the Ar-196. They become larger and better armed aircraft able to conduct the artillery spotter gameplay. Slow flying and with an observer, but also much better armed (if easier to spot).

[Gambit21]

It’s shocking how slowly a Storch can fly. We have a flying example up this way. Looked like it went about 40 feet on it’s take-off roll before getting airborne. 

[Lusekofte]

I would buy 20 battlepacks containing winterwar of Finland and start of continious war. Just to cover the loss of not @Gambit21 buying it.

I would buy double of that with costal battles in the coast of Norway with Beufighter, Mossie, HE 115 , Arado 196, some FW fighters and this.

I would even buy a GB battle of Berlin I would not use just to have the sort like that latewar stuff placed somewhere so I could enjoy seaplane for myself

 

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

It’s shocking how slowly a Storch can fly. We have a flying example up this way. Looked like it went about 40 feet on it’s take-off roll before getting airborne. 

 

I'm kind-of hoping that Ivan (the mysterious modeler of the IAR-80/81) will do the I-153 afterwards, and then the Feiseler Fi-156 or even Fw-189.... they'd definitely be interesting additions. I find it interesting how the I-153 had something of a comeback in Kuban apparently.

 

1 hour ago, LuseKofte said:

I would buy 20 battlepacks containing winterwar of Finland and start of continious war. Just to cover the loss of not @Gambit21 buying it.

 

Here that? You're worth 20 of the rest of us mortals apparently

 

But I'd definitely go for LuseKofte's modules there (just speaking for me obviously) - if they could be made, I'd order.

 

 

21 hours ago, oc2209 said:

Until this can be proven decisively, I don't think the devs will go for it.

 

While I would like the P-63, there are already 3 very strong Russian late-war fighters to select.

17 hours ago, Alexmarine said:

Please, provide this evidence. Even Yefim Gordon in his monography about the P-39/63 in Soviet service (which I have a copy of) couldn't find any real proof of it except hearsays and forum reported talks 

 

Ah, I see... yes, after looking into it a bit the timeline seems quite unlikely... and the accounts mentioning the type could easily by misidentification and misremembering. Unless a photograph turns up or records... I'd tend to agree with you.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Avimimus

[BMA_FlyingShark]

12 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Tigers attacking the Salween River bridge.

 

Sounds pretty good to me.

I completely agree.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[LukeFF]

22 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

How much fun would this be....

 

Someone ages ago was working on making a flyable Ar 196 for the original IL2, but he was running up against the issue of lack of resources. Having a quick look around, it looks like more resources are available now, but I'd hardly call it a plane that'd be in high demand to be made flyable. 

[Gambit21]

20 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Someone ages ago was working on making a flyable Ar 196 for the original IL2, but he was running up against the issue of lack of resources. Having a quick look around, it looks like more resources are available now, but I'd hardly call it a plane that'd be in high demand to be made flyable. 

 

Yeah it would never pencil-out.

[Feathered_IV]

I like the 196 as an aircraft.  Always have.  Although I'm not sure what the player would do with it without some time consuming additional gameplay features being added to the core game.  On its own it would be a very slow way to carry some very tiny bombs.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

I like the 196 as an aircraft.  Always have.  Although I'm not sure what the player would do with it without some time consuming additional gameplay features being added to the core game.  On its own it would be a very slow way to carry some very tiny bombs.

 

Oh, I agree. It might have a place if detailed artillery directing gameplay is added to support the Fi-156.

 

That said it does have two 20mm cannons in addition to its gunner and pair of bombs - so one  could strafe! It was apparently a good airplane, reasonably maneuverable, but is pretty marginal against land-based aircraft. But as a cannon armed, float equipped aircraft - I think it could compete quite well for interest with the Fi-156 if it had the same artillery spotting gameplay.

 

 

[Bumfluff]

It’s the pacific for me or I’m tapping out of the series I am afraid. 
 

Have no interest in late model Russian aircraft, etc.

I’m not being belligerent. Just adding my voice.

 

thanks. 

 

[Lusekofte]

I fly this game alone. Short sequences weeks apart each time. I can carry 2 x 50 kg  bombs as much as I like.

I care not if it was 20 kg bombs, for that matter.