NO COMM DOGFIGHTS

[Todt_Von_Oben]

If I knew how to make an MP server, I'd make one without comm; where players could experience 1V1 WWI dogfighting as it should be: without that technical advantage.  

 

Why?  Because as I have seen: lacking that, dogfight servers become shooting galleries for experienced players who team up against those they call "newbs" and use every technical advantage to dominate the action.  I saw that discourage many new players and diminish numbers at ROF and I don't want to see it continue here in FC1.  

 

I'm convinced it would benefit the FC community to insulate those seeking the more authentic aspects of primal WWI dogfighting from those who insist on utilizing WWII-level comm and comm-coordinated tactics that really have no place here.  If we can't protect ourselves from those who avoid a fair fight; we can at least take away some of the technical advantages they rely upon.  

 

In that arena, you depend only on your own skills.  When you win, you actually win.  And when you lose, it's because you met a better man; and weren't bushwacked by superior numbers of experienced gamers using advanced technologies that were generally unavailable to pilots in the First World War.  

 

Of course, those who have years of experience using  comm to double-team solo fliers have developed enough skill that they can continue without voice; and they probably will. There's no way to instill sportsmanship in a person who refuses to understand the need for it.  

 

But at least removing the comm would lessen the inequity and give new players (and those who simply enjoy a fair fight) a better chance to grow, develop, and enjoy Flying Circus.  

 

Z-Fly and Dirty Biker are going out of their way to provide dogfight servers and I've read that NF&F is coming soon, too.   Thank you!  But I hope someone will take what I've said here into consideration and do something like this.  After what I saw and experienced in ROF, I believe this is vital to the survival and growth of FC1; if not WWI A/C flight sims in general.

 

ADDIT:

 

We could probably do without text and icons, too.  

 

 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Todt_Von_Oben

[BraveSirRobin]

A noob has about the same chance of winning against 2 vets on comms as he/she does against 2 vets not on comms.  In both cases it's very close to zero.

 

The best chance for a noob to "grow, develop, and enjoy Flying Circus" is to get on comms with some vets and learn from them.

Edited November 24, 2019 by BraveSirRobin

[FTC_Snowy]

Certainly Great War flyers didn’t have the benefit of radio comms so you make a good point. They could use hand signals to some extent but only while in formation and not in the heat of a dogfight. I’d welcome a no comms multiplayer server environment as it would be more authentic for FC. The problem of course is there is likely no way to enforce it, other than with others you trust to play the game.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Snowy
New thoughts

[BMA_Hellbender]

No comms has worked great in the past for closed events in RoF. Not just dogfighting and flying in formation, but especially linking up with other flights at a specified time and location to perform a mission together is both challenging and exhilarating. It also leads to slightly more rigid flying and more realistic dogfights. The prerequisites of course is that there is trust between all those involved and that the goal is historical re-enactment rather than personal glory.

Edited November 24, 2019 by J5_Hellbender

[Cynic_Al]

3 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

If I knew how to make an MP server, I'd make one without comm; where players could experience 1V1 WWI dogfighting as it should be: without that technical advantage. 

 

 

 

IL2/RoF have no built-in comms system, those used are entirely independent and beyond the control of a server operator. There's nothing you can do to suppress the "I'm in/I'm out" brigade, other than to build maps in which comms offer little advantage.

[No.23_Gaylion]

I love when I team up with my squad mates and do this from time to time. I've noticed we are actually more observant and tighter in attacks than with comms because you are making damn sure you aren't both going down on the same dude (ha).

[Todt_Von_Oben]

1 hour ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

IL2/RoF have no built-in comms system, those used are entirely independent and beyond the control of a server operator. There's nothing you can do to suppress the "I'm in/I'm out" brigade, other than to build maps in which comms offer little advantage.

 

Yeah, you're right; I know.  Comm is separate so it can't be banned.  And asking for something like this in NF&F within this player base is historically unrealistic.  But I'd still like a non-comm VR dogfight server because that will require levels of independence and self-reliance that don't exist in groups but are advantageous to the individual dogfighter.  

 

Of course, it would require cooperation and trust in something beyond any one group's agenda and there's no real history of that here.  

 

Still, those wanting to contribute something positive to this could do so by agreement on a server with password protection.  Just needs the right people.

 

I can think of a few guys who might be into this.  I'll send out some email and if they see this post they can send me a PM and we'll see where it goes.  

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Ah yes, the "simulationists" that use comms in their WW1 flying game.

 

?

 

Agree something like this could work and would be fun for closed events; but never in public multiplayer.

Edited November 24, 2019 by J28w-Broccoli

[Zooropa_Fly]

I think the reality is half the MP population would just play something else if they couldn't speak to their buddies.

But yes, there has been plenty of hypocracy over this issue compared to other in-game aids.

[SeaW0lf]

I don’t think you need to go to such lengths to implement a non comm environment in a furball server, especially if it has icons. It won't make much of a difference. Fights are random and I'm not sure if people really rely on comms in an airquake server. When squads start to bother with coordinated attacks in a furball server, people just take off in a couple of D7Fs (squads are generally Entente ones) and chaos is restored. 

 

Fly against comm players is also good to practice defensive maneuvers, to learn how to deal with two or more opponents, that sort of thing. Then you can start to build your own bag of tricks. Comms really make a difference in full real missions.

 

You could build a duel server. Than you can be assured that comms are useless.

 

Regarding newbie’s quitting multiplayer, it is not comms or any other 'legal cheat' that drives people away from the servers. It is not for everybody. Whoever quits multiplayer is because it is not for them, and no fault in it. We all know how heated things get out there and some people rather enjoy things alone in single player. I don't blame them.

 

What drives people from the servers is bad game-play - bugs, bad damage-model, that sort of thing. If being mugged and shot down was a problem, multiplayer would not exist. And like Bender said, there are some tournaments in ROF with no comms.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

Just now, Todt_Von_Oben said:

 

Yeah, you're right; I know.  Comm is separate so it can't be banned.  And asking for something like this in NF&F within this player base is historically unrealistic.  But I'd still like a non-comm VR dogfight server because that will require levels of independence and self-reliance that don't exist in groups but are advantageous to the individual dogfighter.  

 

 

There is no need for comms on an icon server where there is a small map and SA is so obvious. I doubt anyone uses is it on such a server except for generalized BS.

[Chief_Mouser]

For 'historical' reasons we did some no comms RoF co-ops alongside - or against, can't remember which - the EAF. It was bloody boring!!! Half of the fun of MP is being able to talk to someone; if you're going to stay silent you might as well stick to single player.

This is a game, after all. Cheers.

[Ghost666]

Got to agree with you that it would be boring not to use comms in MP. Talking to other pilots is the main reason for MP. And is comms really non-historical or is it just that we talk to each other at a different time than the IRL pilots did. That is to say that flying planes takes up very little time of each day. 1 to 3 sorties a day at 1 to 2 hours per sortie that's only 6 hours max. that leaves 18 hours to sleep, eat and talk about what to do if attacked this way or that way etc...………….  So IRL the pilots spent hours talking about tactics and what to do when this or that happened. We don't have this sort of time so we talk in flight. So we may understand each other less and pass less info between each other then RL WWI pilots did even with our modern comms. Just a thought.

[No.23_Triggers]

21 minutes ago, Ghost666 said:

Got to agree with you that it would be boring not to use comms in MP. Talking to other pilots is the main reason for MP. And is comms really non-historical or is it just that we talk to each other at a different time than the IRL pilots did. That is to say that flying planes takes up very little time of each day. 1 to 3 sorties a day at 1 to 2 hours per sortie that's only 6 hours max. that leaves 18 hours to sleep, eat and talk about what to do if attacked this way or that way etc...………….  So IRL the pilots spent hours talking about tactics and what to do when this or that happened. We don't have this sort of time so we talk in flight. So we may understand each other less and pass less info between each other then RL WWI pilots did even with our modern comms. Just a thought.

Well I'd defo say it's unrealistic, mainly because you can react in real-time to callouts that you wouldn't have got in the 'real thing' - for example "Break, there's a D.VII on your six". Had your wingie not said that, you'd be a dead boy! 

But, I also agree that MP without comms would be a bit of a yawn-fest...I'd much rather the 'newbs' that squadrons 'prey on' join squadrons of their own! 

 

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

Just now, No.322_Red_Cat said:

if you're going to stay silent you might as well stick to single player.

This is a game, after all. Cheers.

 

That's just so  Creepy

[Cynic_Al]

4 hours ago, No.322_Red_Cat said:

 Half of the fun of MP is being able to talk to someone; if you're going to stay silent you might as well stick to single player.

 

 

That may be your view but don't mislead potential newcomers to MP.  For what I would like to think is a significant proportion of players, flying against humans is the only worthwhile aspect of the game, and not all of them feel compelled to talk or even text while so doing. In fact there are those for whom having to communicate at all is a positive and unnecessary chore.

[Chief_Mouser]

10 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

That may be your view but don't mislead potential newcomers to MP.  For what I would like to think is a significant proportion of players, flying against humans is the only worthwhile aspect of the game, and not all of them feel compelled to talk or even text while so doing. In fact there are those for whom having to communicate at all is a positive and unnecessary chore.

 

Apparently, according to something Jason said a while back, MP is just a small aspect of Il-2. The vast majority of players are, supposedly, happy in SP.

Anyway, far from misleading potential newcomers I hope that I'm encouraging them to get onto comms. Quite often if I have a few minutes spare I will pop into a MP server and tootle about on my ownsome without talking to anyone. Life expectancy and fun levels are significantly less than if I have mates or even casual acquantainces to talk with. MP is, essentially, the social side of the sim.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Use comms all you want, just don't delude oneself into thinking it is in any way historical; representing pre-flight planning, hand signals, or anything like that.  You have a chat function too, which if you're mimicking "hand signals" actually requires the use of *your hands*, but people choose comms instead.  It isn't about historical accuracy, or simulation.  It's for advantage, social aspects, or (usually) both.

[WWBiker_]

1 hour ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Use comms all you want, just don't delude oneself into thinking it is in any way historical; representing pre-flight planning, hand signals, or anything like that.  You have a chat function too, which if you're mimicking "hand signals" actually requires the use of *your hands*, but people choose comms instead.  It isn't about historical accuracy, or simulation.  It's for advantage, social aspects, or (usually) both.

wow got to check out those other aspects I been playing for fun.

[J2_Trupobaw]

21 hours ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Use comms all you want, just don't delude oneself into thinking it is in any way historical; representing pre-flight planning, hand signals, or anything like that.  You have a chat function too, which if you're mimicking "hand signals" actually requires the use of *your hands*, but people choose comms instead.  It isn't about historical accuracy, or simulation.  It's for advantage, social aspects, or (usually) both.

The primary function of comms is controlling (venting or laughing away) the frustration. FC is long  minutes of strained concentration followed by short action; solo experience is straining and has great potential for frustrating pilots who get up and climb only to get overpowered and downed. It's endgame experience for MP; starting point should be flying with like minded friends.

[Zooropa_Fly]

31 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

The primary function of comms is controlling (venting or laughing away) the frustration. Jasta 5 Flugpark is long  minutes of strained concentration followed by short action; solo experience is straining and has great potential for frustrating pilots who get up and climb only to get overpowered and downed. It's endgame experience for MP; starting point should be flying with like minded friends.

 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

The primary function of comms is controlling (venting or laughing away) the frustration.

 

Well you be sure to switch those off before you engage, then. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by J28w-Broccoli

[Cynic_Al]

1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

The primary function of comms is controlling (venting or laughing away) the frustration. FC is long  minutes of strained concentration followed by short action; solo experience is straining and has great potential for frustrating pilots who get up and climb only to get overpowered and downed. It's endgame experience for MP; starting point should be flying with like minded friends.

 

If you're getting frustrated, maybe should be in a different type of game altogether; perhaps something faster-paced and requiring less patience. Maybe one of those games that just requires running with a gun.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

On 11/24/2019 at 11:47 AM, DirtyBiker said:

wow got to check out those other aspects I been playing for fun.

 

Always a great time at Misfits, Dirty.  You rock, man.  Your maps are unique and a lot of fun to fly.  Thanks for making them available.

[J2_Jakob]

I fly without comms majority of my time in MP. Mostly out of courtesy to family members sharing the same room. I still find it very enjoyable to fly with my squad mates this way. Seldom taking off together, it is pleasant to be able to find and recognize them by their "uniforms" and stick together for the rest of the sortie. Challenging, but fun.

 

I loved flying with @-IRRE-Genius back then in RoF. He even used hand signals, what a guy! ?

 

--- edit ---

As others have said, it is completely out-of-control on regular servers. No-comms closed events are the only way to do this and even then it's all about trusting the people not to use them.

Edited November 27, 2019 by J2_Jakob

[US103_Hunter]

If 3rd Pursuit is there, the result is the same with comms or no.

 

 

[Todt_Von_Oben]

1 hour ago, J2_Jakob said:

I fly without comms majority of my time in MP. Mostly out of courtesy to family members sharing the same room. I still find it very enjoyable to fly with my squad mates this way. Seldom taking off together, it is pleasant to be able to find and recognize them by their "uniforms" and stick together for the rest of the sortie. Challenging, but fun.

 

I loved flying with @-IRRE-Genius back then in RoF. He even used hand signals, what a guy! ?

 

--- edit ---

As others have said, it is completely out-of-control on regular servers. No-comms closed events are the only way to do this and even then it's all about trusting the people not to use them.

 

 

I hear ya, Jakob. And I agree. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

In general sum, my point is: a "no-comms" server would be nice for those of us who would enjoy that kind of environment and I wish one existed.  

 

I wouldn't know how to make a server and don't have the time to learn right now; but the operating costs seem doable and I would like to do this myself at some time in the future.  It'd have to be password protected.  Details TBD; but fast, loose, and with the focus on flying with your mouth shut.  ;-)

 

I think Fly's probably about right: at least 50% of those presently visibly active would bail; and that'd be okay.  We'd want quality; not quantity. 

 

I've got a couple friends who quit flying IL2 MP in disgust but are pretty good pilots and I'd like to get them started in FC1VR; they are very cool people and a pleasure to work with.  

 

And from what I've seen in this thread, there's a few who seem to at least see a no-comm server as a good idea; they might want to fly it sometimes and would be welcome.

 

Plus, off the top of my head I can think of  a couple dozen pilots I've flown with in the past who would be good candidates for an invitation.  The best pilots I met in ROF didn't talk; they flew.  Some were Russian and/or otherwise didn't speak English; but I never had a problem arriving at an understanding in the air with them and we shared may hours of well-flown dogfights.  I could reach out to those guys; I think they'd appreciate something like this.

 

What's the worst that could happen; it struggles and fails?  No problem.  It would be worth it to me as nothing more than an experiment, but I'm pretty sure there'd be some good times, too.   All good!

 

Of course, if not "no-comms," we could always just simply make it a "free-for-all" site where the general concept is "let's all get into a closet with ball peen hammers and whoever comes out alive is the winner."  There, you would have no choice but to stand on your own and talking wouldn't do one bit of good, either.  Heh!  

 

Prosit! :-)  

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

Being on comms is probably your best training tool you'll have, You can learn so much more chatting with other pilots than not chatting, Plus you get to know what the guy's your fighting are actually like. Take Kluggerman for instance, he thought I was a jack ass until we chatted, now he thinks I'm the coolest dude around. ?, all joking aside, Todt if you go on comms  I bet you can learn a ton in just one session, I can show you somethings you can work on that I noticed from dog fighting with you that can help you improve a ton. one thing in particular that would improve your dog fighting skills 100%, something that took me for ever to work on and get better at.

 

You know in the real war they did discus tactics while on the ground as well as when they were in trainers. Plus they all or most were in squads that flew in sight of each other and was able to communicate in one way or another, compared to what we have in this sim is way different than what it is in real life. Our field of vision is only about half of what is in real life. so it's way harder in this sim to keep track of what's going on, 

 

So give it a shot.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

Barker, I have already BT&DT.  I don't need it and what I'm describing is a site for other pilots who don't need it, either.  That's all.

 

Oh and Barker; don't jump to the conclusion that you understand my skills level by what you saw me do one day in MP.  I do what I do for a reason; not out of ignorance.  I've seen you fly; I've flown with the best in ROF and FC1.  There is  nothing about flying a stick and rudder taildragger in a mock dogfight you can tell me that I don't already know from practical experience in real planes; nothing you can tell me about the science of air combat that I haven't known for decades.  And I am not interested in joining one of the groups, either.  I just like to fly and most folks say I do pretty well for plug-and-play.  But since you want to go there, (and this is the second time you've done it so the last I'll ignore) actually, checking the FR's, I shot you up pretty good and the only time you or your buddy scored was (1) when you attacked me shortly after taking off; (2) after I was already engaged; and (3) in a team attack from superior altitude.  (I understand inertial fighting but I'm not interested in doing any of that, thanks.)  And even then, you guys missed most of your shots and the only reason I went down (once when I had you in my sights) was due to stalls because my stick trim was off after flying other planes at the Zoo.  And I still did better than you.  Fastest planes; telescopic sights, and I've flown against bots lately that did better than you guys.  So please, spare me your need to feel superior and talk down to people.  I'm a 70-year old retired pilot and you sound like a kid. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Todt_Von_Oben

[Tycoon]

Just reading this thread it's amazing how many people live in a fantasy of thinking they could be real ww1 pilots.

[Zooropa_Fly]

I think getting killed in 3 weeks is do-able.

[No.23_Gaylion]

If you die on a commless server does anyone hear you scream?

Edited November 28, 2019 by US213_Talbot

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

No but your wife can hear the expletives.

[No.23_Gaylion]

But I'll be at your house with your wife...

[BMA_Hellbender]

31 minutes ago, US213_Talbot said:

But I'll be at your house with your wife...

This is why you get married, have kids and then play video games with them: just so you can provide them with factual information vis-à-vis your role in their conception.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 hour ago, US213_Talbot said:

But I'll be at your house with your wife...

How do you know his wife wants to share him with you?

[BMA_West]

The intimacy of no coms gets that prefund being better off not knowing ….

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

Talbot promises he won't charge you any funds to be intimate if you go on comms.

[No.23_Gaylion]

First 5 minutes are free, after that it's 99 cents a minute.

[Zooropa_Fly]

No Black Friday offers?