Enemy chasing you down to your home...

[-DED-Rapidus]

On 4/6/2021 at 7:02 PM, Vortice said:

OK, I'll give it a go in that case. Try this link and see if it works (or not):

 

@-DED-Rapidus

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwvtgy3ga6dqikk/career-2-Steve Vortice-1945.2021-04-05_09-55-32_00.trk?dl=0

The folder with the same name is missing, there are files with the mission.

[Vortice]

52 minutes ago, -DED-Rapidus said:

The folder with the same name is missing, there are files with the mission.

OK, my apologies, I have never used this service before, so please try this link instead:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jy4l5ih7k9ygd4z/AACg9WvaEVvAiKnylDcGGrKha?dl=0

[Vortice]

?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Vortice

[Vortice]

?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Vortice

[PaladinX]

Discussed in 2019 already (and i think even longer known)

 

 

[Gelbe3]

On 4/5/2021 at 1:02 PM, Vortice said:

I have noticed in several recent careers that after fighting with the enemy and then landing on my home airfield the remaining bandits in the area will repeatedly attempt to strafe me while I am parked up on the ground.

 

They will ignore every other friendly plane in the air and every other parked aircraft on the airfield, but instead concentrate solely on my aircraft.

 

I don't currently have any webspace where I can upload a *.trk file to demonstrate this to you, but it happened again as recently as today. It's somewhat unrealistic behaviour I think, and it detracts from the overall enjoyment of the game.

 

@-DED-Rapidus

 

I have a *.trk file of this happening, but it is sized 430Mb, so how can I send it to you?

lol - may be thats normal - in the last 2 weeks i get the same 3 times - all the time 2 sec before leave the  mission within the 14 sec shutdown  (i`m rigth ATA_h.......51 ? i shoot you down both before and landed with full stop on runway  ?  and with  1 other guy from the "top ten" )  - need you this  ? can you better sleep than - hello - IT IS A GAME !!!!!! - FUN !!! 

 

And also - on last Friday (30.04.2021 - 15:17  Missionen #12613 - Novorossiysk) d.........2 was unable to down the YAK7 B ..... i do this for him ? .

 

Thereafter he was a little bit angry ..... so i lost my life ? - he strafed me friendly fire to shot down me - a little bit unexpectedly .....

 

Futhermore it is normal to cut the LAN connection for some "REDs" within unfavorable position - short before i can shoot ...... P-38 are prefers    (3x in the last 2 weeks)

I'd rather go to a server with KI .....

 

regards Ingo

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Gelbe3
remove mistake

[Spasticus]

This is still really annoying. I kited a 109 around my airfield for 20 minutes and the AA didn't manage to shoot it down. 

[PaladinX]

Still quite unplayable with this issue.

The same as when your whole flight is in landing approach, you get attacked, and they quietly continue...while the enemy shoots them down.

No idea to abort approach and defend themselves...

[Trooper117]

No, that's not good...

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

They still chase you down but right now its not as much as an issue as the AI ramming the ground when engaging enemies at very low altitude. 

[Gambit21]

On 3/6/2020 at 4:52 AM, PaladinX said:

 

But AI behaviour is not a question of the single player mode. Its a question of AI behaviour, no matter in what kind of mission or campaign.

 

No.

You, and Feathered who upvoted you, are both incorrect.

 

This behavior is quite easily mitigated with proper mission logic. It’s not an AI issue, it’s a mission design issue.

 

You will not see this happening in a properly designed mission, scripted campaign etc.

 

 

 

Unless it’s intentional in that instance by the mission designer.

 

 

[PaladinX]

? Now the gatekeepers of this bad AI again...

 

If there is no AI, yes. Then everything depends on how good the mission is scripted. Even worse than a bad AI.

If the AI reacts to what happens on the situation on the battlefield - at least to a certain grade (e.g. aborting an landing approach when they are attacked) - then i speak of AI.

And this is much more important than a decal system or some nice clouds in this game.

Or why are there so many good (very old) flight sims, where the AI can decide reasonably what to do? And here, they are not? Strange.

[Gambit21]

8 minutes ago, PaladinX said:

? Now the gatekeepers of this bad AI again...

 

Eh...no.

Again, you were speaking of mission design related issue.

 

8 minutes ago, PaladinX said:

If there is no AI, yes. Then everything depends on how good the mission is scripted. Even worse than a bad AI.

 

You have zero clue about this.

Spend some time in the editor/ building missions then come back and try again.

 

8 minutes ago, PaladinX said:

If the AI reacts to what happens on the situation on the battlefield - at least to a certain grade (e.g. aborting an landing approach when they are attacked) - then i speak of AI.

 

Now you’re moving the goal posts.

[Dakpilot]

1 hour ago, PaladinX said:

? Now the gatekeepers of this bad AI again...

 

If there is no AI, yes. Then everything depends on how good the mission is scripted. Even worse than a bad AI.

If the AI reacts to what happens on the situation on the battlefield - at least to a certain grade (e.g. aborting an landing approach when they are attacked) - then i speak of AI.

And this is much more important than a decal system or some nice clouds in this game.

Or why are there so many good (very old) flight sims, where the AI can decide reasonably what to do? And here, they are not? Strange.

 

Should the graphic artists code the AI? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

On 5/3/2021 at 5:55 AM, PaladinX said:

...

The same as when your whole flight is in landing approach, you get attacked, and they quietly continue...while the enemy shoots them down.

No idea to abort approach and defend themselves...

 

You raise a good point here PaladinX.

This is one of the games age old issues as this was thought to be hard coded and nothing could be done.

However saw this post and took a serious look into it.

Scripting issue now solved.

All that remains is a hard coded command for the AI, which has dirtied up, to clean up quicker in engaging attacking E/A.

 

AI aborting landing pattern logic to engage and resume landing - Mission Making and Mission Editor - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum (il2sturmovik.com)

 

Tip

[Feathered_IV]

On 5/4/2021 at 5:47 AM, Gambit21 said:

 

No.

You, and Feathered who upvoted you, are both incorrect.

 

This behavior is quite easily mitigated with proper mission logic. It’s not an AI issue, it’s a mission design issue.

 

You will not see this happening in a properly designed mission, scripted campaign etc.

 

 

 

Unless it’s intentional in that instance by the mission designer.

 

 

 

So if the default AI parameters in the Mission Builder menus were set to some more appropriate settings right out of the box, would this lessen the workload of mission designers and help alleviate some of the recurring issues that players have with the AI?

[Jade_Monkey]

30 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

So if the default AI parameters in the Mission Builder menus were set to some more appropriate settings right out of the box, would this lessen the workload of mission designers and help alleviate some of the recurring issues that players have with the AI?

 

I think it's a matter of giving the enemy a different command:

 

There is the Attack order (presumably the one being used right now) that will result on the enemy incessantly attacking their target.

 

There is the Attack area order that makes the enemy attack targets within a designated radius (e.g. 5000m from where you placed the attack command). Once you leave that area the enemy should turn around and stop chasing you.

 

Although there might be more work when implementing this, the high level solution would be to swap these two commands.

However, there could be some downstream impact they might need to test, like placing the commands in the right location (the current attack command is location independent).

Edited May 5, 2021 by Jade_Monkey

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

So if the default AI parameters in the Mission Builder menus were set to some more appropriate settings right out of the box, would this lessen the workload of mission designers and help alleviate some of the recurring issues that players have with the AI?

 

Monkey pretty much nailed it. There are ‘fancier’ things you can do with the logic, like making the AI bug out themselves due to other conditions , but Monkey’s solution is the simplest to automate.

 

It’s been a few years since I’ve examined a career mission. The last time that I did however the AI was set to Attack the player, not Attack Area.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Gambit21

[Vortice]

Not sure if it's anything to do with the latest hotfix, but just now a couple of 190s followed me for a short while after I departed from a large battle over Nijmegen, but then they broke away and didn't return.

 

Yesterday a couple of 109s followed me from Weeze all the way back to Woensdrecht, so this represents an improvement IMO.

 

Will let you all know if the strafing after landing problem re-occurs at any point in the future.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Vortice

[Gr3y]

Just finished mission 10 (Special Assignment) from official "Ice Ring" scripted campaign and was being chased by two Bf109 F4 during my entire route back deep into allied territory.

One got shot by my gunner during the flight but the the 2nd continued and was even making attempts to shot me down when I was landing. Of course both were unbothered by my allies (even if AAA was trying to do something they were failing miserabely). 

 

Enclosing map with the chase route, so you can see how bad it was. 

 

 

 

[oc2209]

3 hours ago, TrueGrey said:

Just finished mission 10 (Special Assignment) from official "Ice Ring" scripted campaign and was being chased by two Bf109 F4 during my entire route back deep into allied territory.

One got shot by my gunner during the flight but the the 2nd continued and was even making attempts to shot me down when I was landing. Of course both were unbothered by my allies (even if AAA was trying to do something they were failing miserabely). 

 

Enclosing map with the chase route, so you can see how bad it was.

 

To be honest, I don't see the problem in this instance. I've read accounts of Germans (specifically during Stalingrad) chasing Russians back to their airfields; and stalking the fields and attacking Russians as they take off.

 

The distances between friendly/enemy airfields in Stalingrad are among the smallest in the entire game. 30-50km isn't really 'deep into Allied territory'.

 

I'm not saying every instance of AI chasing is equally excusable. But Stalingrad is the place to have it happen within some historical plausibility.

[Gr3y]

2 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

I'm not saying every instance of AI chasing is equally excusable. But Stalingrad is the place to have it happen within some historical plausibility.

 

AI/map designer bug backed by historical facts is still a bug. I am aware that we could find an excuse for every dumb AI behaviour, but do we really want it, does it serve any purpose?

 

Not historian myself but also I am not sure encircled German forces could afford chasing single Il2 for 60 kilometers (and losing a plane during the process, yet 2nd pilot deciding to continue the chase), plus doubt Soviets leaving their comerades to be chased by German fighters unbothered over their territory (and past 4 airports) are historically correct as well.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by TrueGrey

[oc2209]

24 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

Not historian myself but also I am not sure encircled German forces could afford chasing single Il2 for 60 kilometers (and losing a plane during the process, yet 2nd pilot deciding to continue the chase), plus doubt Soviets leaving their comerades to be chased by German fighters unbothered over their territory (and past 4 airports) are historically correct as well.

 

Fair point about the encircled part. The Germans would be low on fuel and doubtfully would waste it beyond chasing off attackers in the immediate area.

 

As for the Russians having porous airspace, well, that's more debatable.

 

As others have said here, the simple solution to excessive chasing is to specify and limit the AI action radius. Ultimately I think the greater problem with the AI is basic reactivity. Having it go into landing patterns while enemy planes are attacking the airfield; yeah, that's rather unforgivably stupid. Even this apparent blindness could be fixed, maybe, by increasing its awareness bubble to react to threats outside of the mission area.

And then, there'd have to be further context-specific reactions. Like defensive versus offensive reactions. If an enemy flight attacks your flight as its landing, and triggers a combat reaction from your flight, they should de-activate once the enemy leaves a certain distance from the field to represent a defensive reaction. However, if your flight is triggered by an enemy in a mission area (like free hunt), then it would make more sense to follow targets in a running battle for a while.

[Trooper117]

It's an AI problem that keeps surfacing and needs to be sorted... and yes, I'm well aware that coding a believable AI is a difficult process to get right.

We are told that the bulk of the users that buy the game are SP oriented and not MP.

In my book that means it's in the devs interest to make sure the SP side of things measures up. I certainly believe that the AI is being worked on and that some improvements have already been made, but as we have seen, it's no easy matter to solve these problems quickly...

[Dragon1-1]

The simplest solution would be buff airfield flak so that anyone dumb enough to get too close gets shot to pieces. IRL, they were quite heavily defended.

[Gr3y]

I don't think buffing airfield's AAA is good for two reasons. First enemy still would chase us all the way back to the base and sometimes it's quite a distance, especially when you are not flying a fighter plane. Second it doesn't fix the root of the problem, it would be just hack/walkaround. I don't play MP but in SP sometimes you have to supress AA on airfields, do some strafing and AAA already can be laser accurate making these kind of missions horrible, so the buff could make it worse, unless it would only apply vs AI.

[Dragon1-1]

Well, in SP, it would only apply to your airfield, not anything you have to attack yourself. Perhaps to other friendly airfields nearby. Ideally, they shouldn't chase you, but this isn't entirely ahistorical. What is ahistorical is that those bumpkins don't end up shot full of holes while trying to chase landing aircraft.

[-DED-Rapidus]

There are no clear criteria for AI, when the player has already had enough and there is no point in beating him anymore. I agree that the problem is unpleasant.

[Ram399]

While I personally haven't had any issues with this problem in the past year or so, it seems prominent enough to bother others and I do have some ideas.
Maybe instead of buffing the already considerable flak defenses of most player airfields there could instead be a friendly air patrol added to protect the area?

I know limits to processing power are a major concern when it comes to SP missions, but considering that on the dense setting friendly air patrols are routinely encountered all over the place usually in the act of engaging rival AI flights, I wouldn't imagine it to be so much of a burden to have a dedicated four ship on standby to protect the field.
This patrol doesn't even have to be effective, just a bit of token resistance would be enough to spoil most attacks on landing aircraft considering that our AI is now at least somewhat interested in self-preservation. 

Hell the player could even be regularly tasked with this job if they're a part of Platzschutzstaffel Ptomnik, covering landing Ju-52s and protecting the encircled field from IL-2s sounds pretty fun to me, or in Bodenplatte it could be adapted so that you occasionally have to protect Me-262s on landing approach.

Also I just have to disclaim that I know absolutely nothing about IL-2 mission creation or the intricacies of our AI's logic, and as such this could be way harder to implement than I think it is, I just figured I'd put some sort of idea out there.

[[Warship]MidnightLightnin]

In reply to the original post. The game tries to replicate what would have happened during the war. If you fly into an enemy and they chase you home and shoot you down that's what should happen. You need to work on tactics and situational awareness to prevent that. Changing AAA etc is not the answer. 

 

There is a problem though, and I experience it regularly on the EU servers, the problem is mis-balanced teams - see image. 

 

This was from last week, for the first half of the game was 4 vs 16. I ended up pinned over our air start and constantly fighting 2/3/4 planes at the same time. 

 

I just do not understand the mentality of pilots who think its ok to join a team that is already overwhelming the other team. There seems to be a culture of win at all cost without putting yourself at risk these days. 

 

I'm 60 now and have been playing fighter games since Air Attack in the late 90's on dial up. Back then people balanced teams when they joined, sure they might have wanted to fly a Spitfire but if there were too many on GB they would join GE and fly a 109 until they could move back without upsetting the balance. 

 

There is no honour or skill in shooting a plane down when you have a 4 : 1 advantage. All it does is piss people off and ultimately they leave. A couple of years ago there was an attempt to start a new "Air Attack" game, it failed for several reasons but a key issue was a very small group of expert pilots sitting in arenas and instantly killing new pilots who popped in to see what the game was about.

 

IL2 is almost certainly losing players because of mis-balanced teams so whilst you guys who like to have an unfair advantage in numbers are having a great time spare a thought for the brave pilots who are out-numbered, getting runwayed every spawn, and having an awful time.

 

Because you are driving them out of the game - keep this up and it will result in empty servers.

 

Ok. so that's the rant over but I ask you this. 

 

Please, when you join a game check the teams first and join the team with the lowest numbers. 

 

Can I also recommend to server admins that you implement team balancing - I assume that is possible in IL2(?)

[LukeFF]

12 hours ago, [THORN]MidnightLightnin said:

The game tries to replicate what would have happened during the war. If you fly into an enemy and they chase you home and shoot you down that's what should happen.

 

Eh, no, pilots would generally not chase planes down deep into enemy territory just to gain a single kill. Even more so, they wouldn't do that when they are heavily damaged and leaking fluids all over the place.

[Rodwonder]

The Entire Luftwaffe followed me home... ??

[Vortice]

OK, well I've got another perfect example of this bizarre situation which happened again to me today.

 

So, after a massive aerial scrap in the Tilburg area I departed the scene when I ran out of canon ammunition and then headed back to my base at Schijndel at low level and high speed, hotly pursued by eight K4s who tried to murder me as I landed and taxied. Or a maximum of ten K4s actually if you include the one which I put some holes into with my machine guns (he lost his appetite for fighting subsequently) and also the K4 which I manoeuvre killed when I changed direction suddenly.

 

And I've got every second of it recorded on two track files if you are interested @-DED-Rapidus. It was the most extreme example of this behaviour which I have seen so far.

 

I survived it all BTW and completed the mission, but with no help from my wingmen or the airfield AA. ?

Edited May 31, 2021 by Vortice

[-DED-Rapidus]

8 hours ago, Vortice said:

And I've got every second of it recorded on two track files if you are interested @-DED-Rapidus. It was the most extreme example of this behaviour which I have seen so far.

Great, in  personal mail, give a link to the tracks, please.

[Vortice]

PM Sent.  

[Rodwonder]

The whole VVS followed me home again... 

[-250H-Ursus_]

And?

 

[Vishnu]

.....it must be the Axe spray.  Liberal useage?

[PatrickAWlson]

You have them right where you want them.  Just do slow orbits over your AA and you win the air war in the West in a single mission.

[RedKestrel]

To be fair, this happens to me sometimes in Multiplayer, LMAO