P-47 Career

[gydaveb]

Hi All,

 

First, I wanted to say congrats and thank you to the whole IL2 development team. Way back when, when I was a really young pup, I had some great times playing Aces over Europe and Aces over the Pacific. Those games ignited in me a passion for aviation that resulted in becoming a private pilot and airplane owner years later, and I'm so thankful to see such an amazing simulator as IL2 GB reach the market. A younger me would have never dreamed of such a realistic and beautiful sim experience. IL2 BOB is a masterpiece.

 

OK, now my question. I have been working my way through a single player P-47 career. More often than not, I reach the target area, do some good bombing & strafing, mix it up a bit with some fighters, and then find myself running for home... and running for home... and reaching home, only to be strafed on a landing approach or endlessly (and hopelessly) trying to fend off the 109s while burning fuel and ammo.

 

Is there any hope to surviving (long term) in the -47, or is it a useless endeavor? Thoughts? Am I missing something?

 

 

 

[Gambit21]

I think you're just experiencing the career in it's early days, with development work remaining still.

I'll make a note of this and report.

 

What difficulty are you playing on?

[gydaveb]

Thanks for the speedy reply... I’m playing the following: 

 

career speed: medium

difficulty: easy

front line activity: sporadic

 

Right when I think I’ve mastered the engine management and that I’m getting good at using the -47 as an energy fighter, I get chased half way across the continent with no hope of surviving the superior numbers and better climbing ability of the 109. Other than that I’m having a blast.

[Sybreed]

wow, I have yet to see german fighters intercept me on my own P-38 missions. I think you just got super unlucky.

[gydaveb]

That’s bizarre... I’ve flown about 20 missions and see enemy fighters every time. I’ve been chased home about half the time.

[Xyperion]

I would like to mention that I'm experiencing something similar. I've flown around 15-20 missions (mostly ground attack missions) with the P-47 and in 100% of those missions my flight is getting bounced by a superior number of enemy fighters. Most of the time they are chasing me until my starting airfield. It's like the enemy fighters don't care if they would run out of fuel and wouldn't be able to fly back. My career options:

• Career speed: Realistic
• Career difficulty: medium
• Activity: Dense

[gydaveb]

Yep, exactly what I’m seeing.

[Alexmarine]

It's an AI problem common to all careers: AI fighters are way too happy to stalk the player or other allied flights all the way down to their Airfield, even if it means running out of fuel or getting shot up by the AAA

[RedKestrel]

They had improved the AI a bit and it was not chasing you all the way home as much the last time I played Career, maybe things have regressed a little in this regard with the work being done on the AI.

[ShadowStalker887]

There also seems to be a mismatch between numbers of allied and enemy A/C. On my Spit 9 career our flight of 4 intercepted 12 Fw190A8's, and then somehow dragged another 8(!) BF109G-14's into it. I scored 6 kills and still had 11 A/C chasing me to my airbase. 

 

They really need to look into having a 'Help me' command or a ready flight to call on when your being pursued, as it really is frustrating to be dragging half an enemy airforce around Benelux trying to get a chance to land.

[cellinsky]

3 hours ago, Xyperion said:

I would like to mention that I'm experiencing something similar. I've flown around 15-20 missions (mostly ground attack missions) with the P-47 and in 100% of those missions my flight is getting bounced by a superior number of enemy fighters. Most of the time they are chasing me until my starting airfield. It's like the enemy fighters don't care if they would run out of fuel and wouldn't be able to fly back. My career options:

• Career speed: Realistic
• Career difficulty: medium
• Activity: Dense

 

Thats exactly what I see too. Same settings. Its a bit of an immersion-breaker cause I love the P-47 carrer otherwise. And as mentioned above, its a common "problem" in every carrer. I hope the devs find a way to improve this. Programming a clever, humanlike ai is one of the toughest parts however.

[Sgt_Joch]

it's not a AI issue, it is a mission editor issue. You don't have that problem in BOM/BOS/BOX. It will be addressed.

[Elem]

22 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

You don't have that problem in BOM/BOS/BOX

You certainly do!

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

1 hour ago, Elem said:

You certainly do!

 

Indeed, I am flying Il-2 BoM career and I've been chased several times all the way to my base by 109s. I've tried to hide using ground obstacles, but to no avail. Something should be done about it. 

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Sgt_Joch said:

it's not a AI issue, it is a mission editor issue. 

 

Yes

It's a question of mission logic, not AI.

 

Getting the AI to stop attacking and go home is a simple matter - we’re looking simply at a lack of a “force complete” command it seems.

 

Further; there should be friendly patrol missions in the vicinity at least sometimes.

 

The editor logic is also capable of “calling” such a flight for help if you’re attacked near your base etc.

[Xyperion]

The issue with the AI chasing you to base can be experienced in BOS as well, but to be honest recently when I was playing a BOM career, this happened very, very rarely. I almost never got chased to base. ?

[Legioneod]

AI has improved a bit I noticed. Was doing a mission in my P-47 career and my flight got bounced by 3-4 109s, they didnt turn but kept booming and zooming, I couldn't get and shots on them and barely made it home. Was cool and shows progress, hope to see the ai improve even more and behave more life like.

[CAFulcrum]

I have seen them follow for a ways and then turn back in bos career missions.  Have you tried playing in hard mode?  Higher level ai might be more survival conscious.

[gydaveb]

Haven’t tried hard mode, but I’ll give it a shot. On that note, what exactly do the settings do? AI Skill level is effected by difficulty, or number of AI? 

[Oyster_KAI]

7 minutes ago, gydaveb said:

Haven’t tried hard mode, but I’ll give it a shot. On that note, what exactly do the settings do? AI Skill level is effected by difficulty, or number of AI? 

I’m wondering if someone can help explain this.
In the official manual?

[TheWarsimmer]

When I play career mode I go medium all settings and regularly get chased by 2 or 3 109s back at the home airfield. I like action as much as the next guy, but it seems you have to get around 15 kills by the 10th sortie just to have the chance to stay alive. Seems a bit much imo.

Edited November 13, 2019 by TheWarsimmer

[Sgt_Joch]

As I recall, "easy" or "hard" campaign settings affect the AI. On easy, your teammates are mostly veterans/ace while the enemy are novice/average. On "hard", it is the inverse.

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

I think that disengage logic should be of quite high AI priority. I know it is an extremely complex task, but at least some simple rules could be implemented to avoid players being chased through the whole map by a bunch of aircraft. Is there really a command "Force complete"? If so, then it should be a very simple fix.

[Gambit21]

It’s simple.

You can trigger the ‘force complete’ logic with any trigger that you want. Timer, check zone over a certain part of the map, from a player flight waypoint, other mission events.

 

I have a dogfight where the Germans bug out and turn tail when they’re down to 2 aircraft. So THEY/AI turn and go home from the fight.

[gydaveb]

4 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

It’s simple.

You can trigger the ‘force complete’ logic with any trigger that you want. Timer, check zone over a certain part of the map, from a player flight waypoint, other mission events.

 

I have a dogfight where the Germans bug out and turn tail when they’re down to 2 aircraft. So THEY/AI turn and go home from the fight.

Does this logic apply to missions generated by the career, or is it for single player/scripted missions only?

[Gambit21]

43 minutes ago, gydaveb said:

Does this logic apply to missions generated by the career, or is it for single player/scripted missions only?

 

It’s available mission logic in either case.

I haven’t examined a career mission lately, but in any mission where fighters are following you home it’s clearly not in use.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Gambit21

[PatrickAWlson]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

It’s simple.

You can trigger the ‘force complete’ logic with any trigger that you want. Timer, check zone over a certain part of the map, from a player flight waypoint, other mission events.

 

I have a dogfight where the Germans bug out and turn tail when they’re down to 2 aircraft. So THEY/AI turn and go home from the fight.

 

How do they respond if they continue to be attacked?  Do they take proper evasive action?  Turn back to fight?  Become target drones?  It's the last that I am afraid of  

[Gambit21]

36 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

How do they respond if they continue to be attacked?  Do they take proper evasive action?  Turn back to fight?  Become target drones?  It's the last that I am afraid of  

 

All of the above depending on how smart you are with logic/scripting.

 

In my case for that mission, the friendly flights are ordered to form up at that point.

 

But I could also utilize a proximity trigger to make sure that the enemy doesn’t disengage until he has some distance, then reset him (force complete Low) so that he’ll defend himself if chased after he starts for home. I can elaborate later via pm or phone if you wish.

 

What I would like to see is some more creative logic begin to get layered slowly into the career missions. I understand mission/editor logic, but I wish I understood the under UNDER the hood stuff that dictates what logic gets placed and how. Then I could be of more help in this department.

 

it’s one thing for me “hand crafting” as it were, using triggers, reports and counters...but for every plane/flight in every mission in every career...must get daunting pretty quickly.

 

As it stands all I can say is “you need to add this, add that”  because I know what the sim can do, but no idea how difficult it is for them to automate/generate these things.

Which I’m guessing annoys them - but can only do what I can do.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Gambit21

[PatrickAWlson]

@Gambit21 That gets into AI's interaction with mission commands.  I agree - would love to have something direct from 1C explaining what the AI will do.  

 

I concede that I do not have anything like this in PWCG but I would like to give it a go.  Put an exclusion zone around the player's airfield that activates after 10 minutes.  Do something on a per flight basis that causes them to go home if losses are too high.

[MasserME262]

On 11/12/2019 at 10:47 AM, ShadowStalker887 said:

to be dragging half an enemy airforce around Benelux trying to get a chance to land.

Im lmao'ing alone at office, that made my day

[Gambit21]

20 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

@Gambit21 That gets into AI's interaction with mission commands.  I agree - would love to have something direct from 1C explaining what the AI will do.  

 

I concede that I do not have anything like this in PWCG but I would like to give it a go.  Put an exclusion zone around the player's airfield that activates after 10 minutes.  Do something on a per flight basis that causes them to go home if losses are too high.

 

Not sure what you’re referring to with the AI. I know what they’ll do.  Just no clue about code to automate logic placement in the career.

 

Regarding your exclusion zones.

Trigger/perimeter set to nationality, object linked to patrols already and/or RTB logic mentioned.

 

 

 

[Jaegermeister]

I’m about 8 missions into a P-38 career and I don’t have the same issues. All medium settings. I have encountered enemy aircraft on about half the missions but they are only mildly aggressive. On the way in to target, they stay above and do not attack. On egress, they follow but only a short distance over the front line. When I have attacked them, (2 x) they attacked my flight. On my last mission, when an enemy G14 took damage, he bugged out. His friends continued to attack my flight and shot down my flight leader before I could catch up. I PK’ed that one. I got good hits on a 3rd one and then he bugged out. The 4th one followed a short distance and then went home. 

 

Maybe the ratios and AI level are different on the P47 career, but what I am running right now seems very appropriate.

[blitze]

P47 airfields in career are closer to the Front than the P38's.

 

This also might have an influence on AI behavior.  Also numbers are a mixed bag - in my 109 Career near the Front we were tasked with a Ground Attack Intercept - well 4 x P47's great but our flight of 4 109's also had to deal with 16 or so Spit IX's as escort.  It was a dance to bring down the P47's and only I made it back to base but when the P47's were shot down, the Spit's didn't seem hugely interested in pursuing me.  I wasn't taking much of a chance though and was using Cloud Cover and direction changes within to be sure.

 

For all the complaining, at least AI uses the same flight model as we do and also Pilot Physiology which is nice.  Get some more comm options there for flight and wingman directions (2 ship / 4 ship commands) and some more tweaking and AI would be quite good.

 

My last Bomber Escort in the Kuban we escorted Stukas to a industrial bombing target, the Stukas dropped their bombs all on the one pass and got out of there.  A nice change to the usual fly around in circles trying to get chewed up by AA or awaiting enemy fighters like in days past.  My flight leader though was tempted on the way in by a lone flight of 3 Il2's near the Front.  He could have waited till on return but alas no, and his impatience cost him his life.  Silly AI flight leader - setting a bad example for the squad.?

[gydaveb]

I’m a bit mystified by the reports of only seeing enemy fighters in half the missions... I see fighters in every flight, leading to engagements 90% of the time.