Is damage exaggerated in the game?

[sevenless]

5 hours ago, JG_deserteagle540 said:

there were more Minnen than Hei in the standard belting anyway, 1tracer, 1Hei and 4MG if i remember correctly...

 

Units decided on their own, however there was an official suggestion...

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by sevenless

[Asgar]

On 11/9/2019 at 9:25 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

I won't mention any names, but it rhymes with Schmunderdolt.

You're talking about the Bf 110, aren't you? I solved your puzzle!

[JG_deserteagle540]

12 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Units decided on their own, however there was an official suggestion...

 

@Sevenless.

 

Any idea how this is modeled in IL-2Box?

 

It would be nice to now how the MinenGeschoß is used on the Mk108 and Mg151/20.

[PikAss]

At least once in the Career of a Wehrb you have to ask if Mineshells are modelled in the game.

[Sublime]

1 hour ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

At least once in the Career of a Wehrb you have to ask if Mineshells are modelled in the game.

What disturbed me was being into aviation HE shells would definitely be a better choice IMO. So like La5FN all HE belts..

Until I discussed with other players who told me maybe IRL but in game AP is much stronger ?

it sucks for Luftwaffe too because their belts are pure HE.

i wish we could go back to CLOD status on guns.  Id like to select what goes into my guns.  For example Id like all tracers at the end of my ammo like the USAAF did IRL.

[sevenless]

3 hours ago, JG_deserteagle540 said:

@Sevenless.

 

Any idea how this is modeled in IL-2Box?

 

It would be nice to now how the MinenGeschoß is used on the Mk108 and Mg151/20.

 

It isn´t modeled at all.

[MercCrom175]

HE isn’t modelled?

[sevenless]

2 minutes ago, MercCrom175 said:

HE isn’t modelled?

 

No, the sequence suggested isn´t. And AFAIK we have no specific Minengeschoss in the game. Maybe others know more details.

[PikAss]

35 minutes ago, MercCrom175 said:

HE isn’t modelled?

 

Of Course it isn't modelled, it should make Tszar Nuke bomb explosions on Impact, do we have that ingame Right now? No..

It is complettly unrealistic how it is modelled in the game, because it had 20000 billions of billions TNT per bullet.

 

A screenshot of a 30mm Impact

 

The Explosion is really really hard to see, so i marked it with a red circle, yes i know it is still not so easy to see but it Shows you how the mineshells are not modelled in this game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Just look at this one

Do you really think, this is how it used to be back then? It is just Looking useless..

 

Compare it to the guncamera of the Luftwaffe i've screenshot for you and don't wonder it got colorized after the war.

Edited December 1, 2019 by [3./J88]PikAss

[Sunde]

27 minutes ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

 

-snip-

So yeah no it isn't modeled, yes it explodes (great observation btw).
But its pretty clear from how planes take damage in the game that the shock wave of HE shells going off inside structures (like aircraft) is not modeled. HE more or less acts like AP with different damage values and perhaps some sort of "splash" damage that makes it more likely to damage other components close to the impact point than AP is. 

[216th_Jordan]

With the development of tank crew there is hope that the damage modelling will get further refinement in that regard - like we've seen with cockpit flames.

 

Such a thing can be hard to implement, but if they can pull it off it would enhance the sim quite a lot me thinks.

[unreasonable]

7 hours ago, Emu_Sunde said:

So yeah no it isn't modeled, yes it explodes (great observation btw).
But its pretty clear from how planes take damage in the game that the shock wave of HE shells going off inside structures (like aircraft) is not modeled. HE more or less acts like AP with different damage values and perhaps some sort of "splash" damage that makes it more likely to damage other components close to the impact point than AP is. 

 

In summary, what I think the game is doing based on hours of testing, ignoring ricochets: 

 

AP damages the part it hits based on KE, and rolls vs the armour rating of the part, if any, to see if it continues through to the next part, losing velocity with each part hit. 

HE damages the part it hits based on HE content, and sends out splinters, the number and size based on the metal content, in a sphere or cylinder, that damage distant parts like mini-AP bullets.  In both cases with each stage there are RNGs involved with a distribution of damage effects vs the "hitpoints" of the affected part that may trigger specific outcomes.

 

I am sure you are right that there is no explicit shock wave modelling, but the range of damage from the initial hit of an HE shell ought to be able to take that into account.  You are not going to get the full pressure effect on every hit whether you model this explicitly or not.  

 

Without being privy to the details of the DM, I suspect that the DM for the generic game HE could be improved in two ways which would cheer up the MS fans: firstly, the ratio of local to splinter damage should be higher. Splinters from 20mm HE do far too much damage to distant engines and fuel tanks in particular. Second, when HE hits hard enough to trigger a decal effect there could be more visual effect of larger pieces of debris coming off the target and perhaps more serious control problems.  What the DEM cannot do, however, is compensate for the human pilots' tendency to fight on in a doomed aircraft rather than bail out.

 

@[3./J88]PikAss  That does pretty well sum up the tone of many of the Mineshell threads.    

 

 

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

The constant loss of consciousness from HE hits on pilots is getting to me. I don't know if its overmodelled but i have sneaking suspicion that there is something not quite right. 

 

What are the they shooting, flash bangs?  Its one thing to get arse full of shrapnel and be in pain, other thing totally to lose consciousness for 20 seconds from 20mm HE wing hit. 

[MercCrom175]

Over pressure is a real thing, especially when blood is rushing to your head under G’s

[unreasonable]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

The constant loss of consciousness from HE hits on pilots is getting to me. I don't know if its overmodelled but i have sneaking suspicion that there is something not quite right. 

 

What are the they shooting, flash bangs?  Its one thing to get arse full of shrapnel and be in pain, other thing totally to lose consciousness for 20 seconds from 20mm HE wing hit. 

 

I thought this had been removed in the latest DD? 

 

"63. The excessive effect of concussion and possible loss of consciousness after HE hits at a tank or aircraft has been removed if the player or AI weren't wounded by these hits."

 

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

3 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

I thought this had been removed in the latest DD? 

 

"63. The excessive effect of concussion and possible loss of consciousness after HE hits at a tank or aircraft has been removed if the player or AI weren't wounded by these hits."

 

 

 

If this is "fixed state", the excessive must be real boogaloo then...

[kendo]

On 11/12/2019 at 1:23 PM, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Yet most films do not show major pieces (wings, entire tail assembles etc) detaching from their aircraft. There are a few that do, but mostly the target looks increasingly shredded and often streaming something. A few have small fires started by incediary rounds as well.

 

I agree that the .08 model seemed closer to footage and combat reports than the current model. I am sure that the team had their reasons fo the change, but I would like to see somehting closer to the former. 

 

I agree. The number of times wings are lost is really excessive - seems almost every time I shoot a plane down (no matter what I'm flying) it loses a wing.

 

I think the P47 issues are the 'canary in the coal mine' here, indicative of deeper issues with the DM.

 

I would love to see them take another look at this - and preferably reinstate a (possibly slightly tweaked) variant of the .08 DM, as this is currently the single most annoying thing about the sim. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by kendo

[BlitzPig_EL]

Far too many single seat aircraft in the Sim, on both sides, are brought down because the wing crumples at the root.

Just last night I was testing a mission I generated with SYN_Vander's excellent tool, and I shot down an AI P40 with an MC202, and you guessed it, the right wing collapsed at the root.  This is patent nonsense.  The Hawk 81 and 87 had one of the strongest wing spar designs of that period, rivalling the P47's.  Yet I was able to cut it off with the two Breda's of the Macchi???!!!

 

Come on.

[69th_Panp]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Far too many single seat aircraft in the Sim, on both sides, are brought down because the wing crumples at the root.

Just last night I was testing a mission I generated with SYN_Vander's excellent tool, and I shot down an AI P40 with an MC202, and you guessed it, the right wing collapsed at the root.  This is patent nonsense.  The Hawk 81 and 87 had one of the strongest wing spar designs of that period, rivalling the P47's.  Yet I was able to cut it off with the two Breda's of the Macchi???!!!

 

Come on.

I agree with you the P47 and p40 had great wing spars.

And the wing loss issue with all the planes.

I would suspect that it may be because the same damage model is applied to many if not all the aircraft in the sim.

Not one time in TEX HILLS book on flying the P40 in combat did he ever mention any P40 losing a wing in combat during his entire combat tour,

Come to think of it he never mentioned any Japanize planes losing a wing that he shot down.