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Posted (edited)

This is lately a hot topic.  By the way this is not a complaint, in the strict sense of the word. Is a little point of view of this

To be honest the alternative enhanced distance is insane, next pic is a bunch of planes 40km away from my position. They are fighters not bombers, even i can bet they are P-51.

Personally this spot mode doesn't have sense. But it doesn't have a little problem wich gonna tell in a few moments.

 

On the pic is static (that difficults everything) But on movement it's PRETTY CLEAR. 3 contacts. One it's almost hiding on the clouds

 

20191009114742_1.thumb.jpg.eca087b8765748297933f5f720457669.jpg

 

Now jumping to not enhanced mode.

 

The not enhanced view is ok, with a lot of effort you can see a contact 20km away, that is fine, but, for me at least, when i get close to a plane, the contact vanishes from the existence until you are really close. Is like. You can see him from 20 to 6km, after that the contact is really hard o see untill you are close enough to see him. That doesn't happen with the long range enhanced mode, but its sacrificing realism in order to get... Realism. It's really weird.

 

I can add a picture of that. I can barelly see the plane on mid range

 

20191009125155_1.thumb.jpg.e23389ab121cc93fd53ac3296605f718.jpg

I personally liked the spot system before the patch, it was hard to see someone from close, but not like now. Off course, with the upgrade of can see the contacts until 20km with a lot of effort and that is the perfect "mid spot" or the more realistic one.

 

I know this changes on spotting are pretty fresh and can be not perfect, just giving my point of view of all this situation.

 

What do you think guys

Edited by -332FG-Ursus_

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And I can't see any planes on the first picture at all... :(

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Posted (edited)

not necessarily want to restart the argument, especially after Petrovich's excellent post that fighter size ACs should be very difficult to see past 5-6 km, but from QMB testing in VR with "realistic view", it is possible to track ACs out to 5-6 km which is good enough for me. Even when a plane is below, I find they are easier to track now that "sun reflections" are modeled. The AC will switch from black to grey/white which shows up more easily against the ground.

Edited by Sgt_Joch

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4 hours ago, -332FG-Ursus_ said:

 

Now jumping to not enhanced mode.

 

The not enhanced view is ok, with a lot of effort you can see a contact 20km away, that is fine, but, for me at least, when i get close to a plane, the contact vanishes from the existence until you are really close. Is like. You can see him from 20 to 6km, after that the contact is really hard o see untill you are close enough to see him. That doesn't happen with the long range enhanced mode, but its sacrificing realism in order to get... Realism. It's really weird.

 

What do you think guys

 

I hate to admit, because I've been banging the drum for this mode but, spotting between the 10km to 5km seems better the old way. 

I guess it's become the old adage about the devil you know being better than the one you don't.

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Thing is that the aircrafts are sometimes not visible when less than 5 km, also did he (Petrovich) said what zoom in game should be used ? Is it max zoom perhabs and if yes how can fly with max zoom all the time?  We don't have super resolution and super zoom on screen at the same time as we have IRL so some compromise must be made. Also why everyone lowers in game gamma if his system is so perfect noone should do this I bet. As for real life spoting imagine a tv antenna on a building and now think how thick (or rather thin)  it is and from how far can u see that it is there. Alternate visibility was a good start coz its made fully zoomed out contact visible and darker. Thats what we need cons visible when zoomed out and a bit darker.

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It seems that with the new visibility setting it is very resolution dependent.

 

If I run my setup at my maximum resolution I can see contacts from an extreme distance (much too far IMO) with the setting checked. As the aircraft get closer they get smaller and in some cases disappear. Using zoom on this setting is inverted. If I reduce display resolution the problem of aircraft getting smaller when closer is very much alleviated and the aircraft can be spotted with ease from a long distance. It seems that the more the resolution is lowered the more you can see. 

 

The standard visibility setting after the update is very much improved, we no longer have the 10 km bubble and I see contacts in a fairly realistic manner. I fully appreciated that the visibility seemed to be linked to display settings of individual users and players are getting different results.

 

 Unfortunately, it seems that some of the servers (that are running alternative visibility) are just turning into big airquakes, with a mass of aircraft meeting up in the middle of the map with tactics thrown out of the window.  

 

I have stressed this before and i'll stress it again, this is not about elitism or "expert" settings, its about choice. On my setup with alternative off, I can see much better than with it switched on.

 

I genuinely hope that the devs will consider adding an icon to servers that will indicate if alternative visibility is on or the server admins will indicate what is running.  I am happy that the community have more choice but I don't really want to have to have to keep turning down my display resolution to see more if alternative is running on the server.. It's rather ironic that I have not flown on WOL for the best part of a year or more but I now find myself drifting back because they have alternative visibility switched off.  

 

I'm sure I have bored the community banging on about this and to be honest I'm boring myself now, so that me out of the discussion for a while. I suppose we will just have to wait and see what happen moving forward.

 

 

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2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

It seems that with the new visibility setting it is very resolution dependent.

 

 

That's what's been explained to me.  It's not that the system isn't working as intended, it's that 'equalization' between resolution settings and rendering modes needs to be worked on. 

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like the post before Mobile_BBQ mentioned, I find it interesting how I can spot planes when completely unzoomed, but as soon as I zoom in to see a bit more what I'm looking at, the planes completely disappears. It's reverse visibility! 

Edited by Sybreed

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7 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

like the post before Mobile_BBQ mentioned, I find it interesting how I can spot planes when completely unzoomed, but as soon as I zoom in to see a bit more what I'm looking at, the planes completely disappears. It's reverse visibility! 

I beleive this is intentional and a compromise between pixel size and being able to spot distant contacts :)

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Just now, OrLoK said:

I beleive this is intentional and a compromise between pixel size and being able to spot distant contacts :)

okay if there's an actual explanation for it I guess it is fine?

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What’s amazing is that the Alternate Visibility setting was originally a BUG! It was corrected in the hotfix and then the “I can’t see stuff” crowd started complaining so they got a separate gamey setting that’s not realistic. Yes we have a BUG as an actual game setting!

Now we are stuck with divided up MP. So much for simulation...

On 10/9/2019 at 2:52 PM, JG700_Benek said:

Thing is that the aircrafts are sometimes not visible when less than 5 km, also did he (Petrovich) said what zoom in game should be used ? Is it max zoom perhabs and if yes how can fly with max zoom all the time?  

You should vary the zoom view, not set it for some specific level. Like this:

 

 

Edited by SharpeXB

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4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

What’s amazing is that the Alternate Visibility setting was originally a BUG!

And you know this from what...?

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32 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

And you know this from what...?

 

Devs comments from 3.201b hotfix:

Quote

7. Airplanes long-range visibility algorythm was corrected to minimize plane size amplification effect;

 

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4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You should vary the zoom view, not set it for some specific level. Like this:

 I know that and I am using it this way  - that was not the question (btw some really good guys like MK MR X used fixed zoom and thats not the problem here).  The question was what Petrovich thinks visible contact is. Is it by his standards visible  when you can only see it in full zoom? For me it should be that the contact is visible regardless of zoom level you look at it.

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8 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Devs comments from 3.201b hotfix:

 

Don`t you think they noticed it before the hotfix? 

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8 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Don`t you think they noticed it before the hotfix? 

 

The way I interpreted it:

1. They released 3.201. 

2. They noticed that the "plane amplification effect" was in it, so they "corrected" (removed) it with a hotfix a couple of days later, together with other corrections.

3. They got a lot of feedback that wanted that pre-correction plane amplification effect back, so they made a new hotfix, where this selection was made optional.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp
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8 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

The way I interpreted it:

1. They released 3.201. 

2. They noticed that the "plane amplification effect" was in it, so they "corrected" (removed) it with a hotfix a couple of days later, together with other corrections.

3. They got a lot of feedback that wanted that pre-correction plane amplification effect back, so they made a new hotfix, where this selection was made optional.

You`re wrong.

 

How on earth do you think that "plane amplification effect" could be missed in testing? It`s so obvious

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What Kemp say is correct, you can see it from DDs topic.

 

Basicly Alternate ON is 3.201 version, that had bug alowing players to see bigger contacts

and Alternate OFF is 3.201b what devs wonted to be from start, and what they belive is realistic

 

so users can now finaly play with seaing contacts when they play on alternate on opotion

or they can be blined like before and see nothing pass 4-5km, and be jumed by others like it was before but now others can see you from more then just 9,5km 😄

 

both options use new visability of teoretical 100km

 

Edited by 77.CountZero
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4 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

You`re wrong.

How on earth do you think that "plane amplification effect" could be missed in testing? It`s so obvious

 

So, why on earth would the intentionally "correct" (remove) this feature with a hotfix, with openly announcing that that they corrected it, if they originally intended it to be there? That does not make sense to me.

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1 minute ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

So, why on earth would the intentionally "correct" (remove) this feature with a hotfix, with openly announcing that that they corrected it, if they originally intended it to be there? That does not make sense to me.

He just need to read back what devs were saying and its all clear

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3 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

So, why on earth would the intentionally "correct" (remove) this feature with a hotfix, with openly announcing that that they corrected it, if they originally intended it to be there? That does not make sense to me.

Same reason why alternative came back. 

 

I`m a tester and people seem to think we are blind.

Edited by LLv24_Zami

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1 minute ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Same reason why alternative came back.

 

If they originally wanted the amplified effect to be there, then they obviously would not have intentionally "corrected" it by removing something that they wanted to be included in the first place.

5 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

I`m a tester and people seem to think we are blind.

 

I am not a tester, but common sense tells me, that if the devs wanted to release this plane amplification effect, they would not have made a hotfix a couple of days later to remove it.

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1 minute ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

If they originally wanted the amplified effect to be there, then they obviously would not have intentionally "corrected" it by removing something that they wanted to be included in the first place.

Okay, I´m done. I`m not going to repeat myself. Same as talking to a wall 😂

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1 minute ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Okay, I´m done. I`m not going to repeat myself. Same as talking to a wall 😂

 

Maybe that is because you are not really trying to understand the responses in this case, but treat it as if you were talking to a wall. 

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Just now, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Maybe that is because you are not really trying to understand the responses in this case, but treat it as if you were talking to a wall. 

WTF, do you understand that I`ve tested it myself before releasing? I KNOW WHAT HAS BEEN NOTICED BEFORE RELEASE. 

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1 minute ago, LLv24_Zami said:

WTF, do you understand that I`ve tested it myself before releasing? I KNOW WHAT HAS BEEN NOTICED BEFORE RELEASE. 

 

Could you please then explain in a an easy and understandable way, why the devs would "correct" something that they thought was working as intended in the first place?

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Just now, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Could you please then explain in a an easy and understandable way, why the devs would "correct" something that they thought was working as intended in the first place?

No, I could not. Think what ever you like 😂 People...

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5 hours ago, JG700_Benek said:

  The question was what Petrovich thinks visible contact is. Is it by his standards visible  when you can only see it in full zoom? For me it should be that the contact is visible regardless of zoom level you look at it.

The zoom effect or benefit will vary greatly by your monitor resolution and size. There’s no single answer to that. There’s no correct zoom level where visibility is concerned. It is possible to set a 1:1 FOV like some sim racers do but that wouldn’t be very beneficial in a flight sim. 

 

Making the contacts visible regardless of zoom level causes that “reverse zoom” effect, contacts would appear to shrink as you zoom in on them. So it looks awkward. We have that effect now with Alternate Visibility. 

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34 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s no correct zoom level where visibility is concerned.

 

There is-  it's the one I can see anything for instance, whole zoom feature is rendered usless if you can only see smth at certain zoom level only mind that it is  its not easy to zoom out and in to exact same setting if its not default value. The fix we need is either to make contact that big that you can see them with any zoom level and/or make them darker.  Why this is so hard to do I cannot imagine. There is an addon that lets you make the cockpit darker/lighter not the whole image why cant we have  lower gamma for contacts only so they are more visible?

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3 hours ago, JG700_Benek said:

The fix we need is either to make contact that big that you can see them with any zoom level

They already did this with Alternate Visibility. And the effect is pretty awful. Contacts visible from ridiculous distances and the inverted zoom effect. But if it’s what you want then you already got it. 

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The problem with spotting is neither Expert or Alternate are good enough. We need a compromise, tailored to cover as many different resolutions as possible.

 

In short:

  • make the sub 5-6km planes easier to spot
  • lose the +40km plane rendering
  • lock the single engine planes rendering to max 20~25 km (tone down the "inverted zoom effect")
  • variable contact sizes depending on the resolution and hardware (e.g. VR)

 

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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3 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

The problem with spotting is neither Expert or Alternate are good enough. We need a compromise, tailored to cover as many different resolutions as possible.

 

In short:

  • make the sub 5-6km planes easier to spot
  • lose the +40km plane rendering
  • lock the single engine planes rendering to max 20~25 km (tone down the "inverted zoom effect")
  • variable contact sizes depending on the resolution and hardware (e.g. VR)

 

All those are already done in normal visibility. If you don’t like seeing planes at 40km and the inverted zoom then don’t select Alternate

As for the last item I don’t know how it would be implemented unless you had 1CGS program in the hardware ID of every possible display or headset and I doubt that’s going to happen. 

 

Normal visibility is already as good and/or realistic as it should be it can be given the graphic limitations. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

All those are already done in normal visibility. If you don’t like seeing planes at 40km and the inverted zoom then don’t select Alternate

As for the last item I don’t know how it would be implemented unless you had 1CGS program in the hardware ID of every possible display or headset and I doubt that’s going to happen. 

 

Normal visibility is already as good and/or realistic as it should be it can be given the graphic limitations.

 

Er... No, they aren't already done. The "Expert" or "Normal" visibility simply extended the 9.5 km rendering view of the old system whilst keeping the bad stuff from it (EDIT: Sun reflections were added too, forgot about that). Only the rendering increased, everything else stayed pretty much the same. We do need some kind of "inverted zoom" effect. Allow me to try and explain:

 

Vast majority of us still uses monitors (situation is slightly different for VR users), and as such we lack peripheral vision the real eyes give us. For this reason many pilots use zoomed out view when flying our simulators in order to get a better peripheral view, which in combination with larger visible dots or contacts, helps to bridge the gap between real and simulated. How much one can zoom out depends on the monitor resolution i.e. whether you can still read instruments or not.

 

This is also where different resolutions come into play... Contacts are easier to spot on HD than 4K monitors unless you have a +50" screen in front of you (high PPI value). And it needs to be addressed as well. Thinking out loud here, but an algorithm that enlarges to some extent the contacts for people with higher resolutions would be the way to go - back to the "inverted zoom" and why it is needed or missing from "Expert" spotting.

 

While the quoted post is accurate and backed up with real pilot info, it simply cannot be translated to our monitors "1:1". And this is precisely why neither "Alternate" or "Expert" spotting are solving the problem. And community is so divided on the subject matter.

Edited by [DBS]TH0R

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41 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

We do need some kind of "inverted zoom" effect.

Well we already have one with Alternate Visibility. The consensus I see from most is that the effect is pretty awful. I agree. 

You might be the only person who likes it. Such an effect should definitely be absent from “expert”

 

This question of visibility will never be solved to everyone’s satisfaction. I even get the impression that the more realistic and higher resolution displays and headsets become and the more real they can display contacts. The more some people will complain because game graphics and aids like dots and icons have fooled them into thinking distant aircraft should be easily visible. Look at AnPetrovich’s explanation. Some players clearly want “fun” over “realism”. Now there’s a setting for that but it’s just going to perpetuate the belief of easy visibility. 

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5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You might be the only person who likes it. Such an effect should definitely be absent from “expert”.

 

This poll (currently) says otherwise:

 

AnPetrovich’s explanation is just that, one pilots explanation. Accurate for the most part (in theory), not how well it translates into what we have in-game.

 

EDIT: The effect is pretty awful for the distance it is rendering/enlarging contacts. Sub 20km it does the job nicely.

Edited by [DBS]TH0R

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9 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

 

This poll (currently) says otherwise:

It doesn’t surprise me that more people want games to be easier and not harder or more challenging. That’s true of most things. 

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12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It doesn’t surprise me that more people want games to be easier and not harder or more challenging. That’s true of most things. 

 

I disagree. The poll is sending one strong message - neither systems are good, and compromise is needed. If one was realistic, the poll wouldn't be neck and neck tight as it is now.

 

TL;DR: On "Expert" you are still blind as a bat, "Alternate" is abusing the smart scaling at unrealistic distances.

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54 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

This poll (currently) says otherwise:

looks like roughly a 5% difference at the moment. This is going to end up causing a split between the community (its already started) not because of elite settings or realism settings. The problem we have is that we are getting very different experiences on different setups. VR users seem to have benefited greatly, possibly because of the scaling and lower resolution?

Players running lower resolutions seem to like the new setting also. 

 A fair few players with higher resolution monitors or different settings/GPU's (myself included ) can't stand the alternative visibility. From a distance contacts look like the Goodyear blimp but at closer ranges the contacts get smaller or disappear. When trying to compensate for this by using zoom it only make it far worse because of the inverted  effect. 

It seems as though the lower resolution the more you see. If I turn my monitor to low resolution it alleviates the problem to some degree (hardly a solution) by running my monitor at half or lower than its default resolution settings.

What is rather ironic is that before alternative visibility was enable in the current build again spotting had definitely improved with no more 10 km bubble.

 

It seems as though we have opened a bit of a Pandora's box  which is going to be difficult to overcome because of the widely varying player experiences. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Custard
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