On the new visibility system

[Retrofly]

25 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

 

Regarding the contacts getting smaller with zoom: it happens only when using the default zoom mode.

With the zoom provided by Lefuneste mod, which can be used in VR or 2D regardless, and is MP compatible, there are no inconsistencies whatsoever.

In other words LOD doesn't change while using Lefuneste zoom.

Do you have a link to this mod?

[JonRedcorn]

Honestly couldn't even care about the visibility right now since multiplayer is unplayable with stutters....

[von_Tom]

 

 

Bear in mind that the visibility is condition dependent.  An example is the op our squad flew last night, using the default setting rather than "alternate".  With the sun behind us we could see contacts way further than before.  Sometimes a bit unrealistically as a light grey aircraft rather than, say, a dark grey or green one, but we could still see them.  Heading into the sun we could see aircraft much closer.  They were probably there to be seen anyway, but we could not pick them out until much later.

 

von Tom

[[DBS]TH0R]

Having flown both online and offline with both of these settings here are my findings (1440p native, 27" screen):

 

• HRD on helps
• turning off Antialiasing is a must
• dots are still too small for my liking on this resolution, but one can adjust

 

A friend who flies in VR spotted things much easier than me on server with Alternate visibility on. For me, the problem is more in medium contact rendering rather than how far one can spot things. IMHO they should introduce a compromise between this realistic and alternate visibility settings, and then if some still don't like it - enable black dots over air contacts for servers that want extra visibility.

[Lusekofte]

44 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

Honestly couldn't even care about the visibility right now since multiplayer is unplayable with stutters....

 

I fly with no stutter in vr. 

But I cant say those white giant planes was a improvement. I will stay on servers with old visability. I saw missed my shot and got owned by a me 110. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by LuseKofte

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 hour ago, JonRedcorn said:

Honestly couldn't even care about the visibility right now since multiplayer is unplayable with stutters....

Until the Devs sort it out try locking your FPS to say 60. It's not ideal but it got rid of stutters for me. 

[Nibbio]

3 hours ago, Retrofly said:

Do you have a link to this mod?

Check the mod section in the forum, name is 3dmigoto mod

[Ribbon]

EDITED (by default my settings were on alternate visibility) so apologies for confusing post!

Ok so i finally did some tests visibility options.

Flying on expert settings i couldn't see enemy fighter after 7km distance, however i did test alternative visibility (at first i thought it was realistic settings) and here are results.

 

I'm 33y old with good sight.

I've run it on balanced settings in VR (Rift S).

Planes i used; me in p51 and enemy in Dora.

I did test in QMB in 3 different conditions;

 

1.me on 10k alt, 20-30km separation while enemy low on deck.

Result; i flew 20-30km away from enemy plane and still able to see it (knowing he circles around red checkpoint).

 

-On 25-30km he was balerly visible rendering in white pixels and visible only in certain condition of his angle in relation to mine.

 

- on 20-25km he vas visible also in white pixels, not losing him from sight never mind his angle in relation to mine.

-on 20km and less enemy is easily seen.

 

2. Co-alt at 10k, 20-30km distance

Results;

-on 25-30km distance i could easily see contrails and white pixels(enemy plane) again above 25km i would loose him from sight depending on background scenery (white part of the sky make his invisible due to him render in white pixels) and depending on his angle in relation to mine.

 

-on 20-25km i could see him almost always (again background scenery is important), trained eye can spot it.

 

-on 20km and less plane is easily seen all the time (forgot does background scenery colour obstrust plane visibility)

 

3. me low on deck, enemy plane at 10k alt at 20-30km distance.

 

-on 25-30km i could barely see him, him rendering in dark pixels, i could see him in certain angles in relation to mine.

Contrails visible all the time.

 

-on 20-25km i could see him most of the time, maybe losing him only when he's in turn and his plane surface reduces shrinks due to angle related to my plane.

 

-on 20km and less i could see him all the time.

 

Note; when zooming in enemy didn't become smaller!

 

As i said on realistic visibility i couldn't see enemy behind 7km distance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by EAF_Ribbon

[[DBS]TH0R]

58 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

Check the mod section in the forum, name is 3dmigoto mod

 

Combining stuff from that mod (i.e. not keeping the same LOD when you zoom in) and lowering the overall maximum rendering range for planes to 25km would be the way to go with the next hotfix for me.

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

We have two options now.

The trouble is that in practice there aren’t really two options. Since all the servers are running Alternate Visibility there is only one choice.

There just aren’t enough players online in this sim to allow for so many options. 

It would be better to have only two choices as before

Expert = realistic (not Alternate) visibility and no icons

Normal= Icons 

Anything else is too many choices and will either fragment up attendance online or just force a single solution on anyone who wants to do multiplayer. 

[Sgt_Joch]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The trouble is that in practice there aren’t really two options. Since all the servers are running Alternate Visibility there is only one choice.

 

 

That is a MP server issue, not a Dev issue.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The trouble is that in practice there aren’t really two options. Since all the servers are running Alternate Visibility there is only one choice.

There just aren’t enough players online in this sim to allow for so many options. 

It would be better to have only two choices as before

Expert = realistic (not Alternate) visibility and no icons

Normal= Icons 

Anything else is too many choices and will either fragment up attendance online or just force a single solution on anyone who wants to do multiplayer. 

 

Talk to the server admins.

[JimTM]

21 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

Talk to the server admins.

 

I wouldn't want to be a server admin right now for all the P-40s in China.    

[cellinsky]

3 hours ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

And it's much better than weird alternative setting that makes future marshall mode useless cos you can easily see enemy on 50km.

 

How the h... do you guys see anything at this distances ?! With alternate on, the fartest plane I could detect, was about 15 km!! out. (a He111). Im on a 3440x1440 pixel, 32 inch display and its pixeld-ensity is so fine, I even dont use AA. no chance to see sole pixels. I have also an AMD GPU, So maybe a driver thing? I dont have this giant dots in the distance everybody is talking about. Any idea on what Im doing wrong?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

48 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

Talk to the server admins.

I just did. I asked 4 times if it was standard visibility running and got no reply.

 

56 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

That is a MP server issue, not a Dev issue.

That is why we need a server side setting or icon to let us know what is running on a server before entering it

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

It would be better to have only two choices as before

Expert = realistic (not Alternate) visibility and no icons

Normal= Icons 

 

 

Edit: Or maybe

Expert  = realistic (not Alternate) visibility and no icons

Icon = Icons 

Custom = whatever servers want to run

Edited October 7, 2019 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[L3Pl4K]

9 minutes ago, cellinsky said:

 I have also an AMD GPU, So maybe a driver thing?

Also AMD user, it is not a driver thing. It is the PPI thing.

Edited October 7, 2019 by L3Pl4K

[TWC_Ace]

Hvaing different  visibility options on various servers is like having different FMs and DMs on various servers. A complete nonsense.

But like someone said we have a bigger problem. Microsttters are back for so many players and nothing in the settings helps much. I know most of the customers are SP players but this way MP will die sooner or later.

Edited October 7, 2019 by =VARP=Tvrdi

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Just now, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

Hvaing different  visibility options on various servers is like having different FMs and DMs on various servers. A complete nonsense.

We have had different options for years, as an example Expert or Icons on.  

[TWC_Ace]

10 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

We have had different options for years, as an example Expert or Icons on.  

That is not an essential setting.

BTW, whatever the visibility distance is set- ON, its completely WRONG to have bigger plane icons/dots as you zoom out and smaller as you zoom in.

Edited October 7, 2019 by =VARP=Tvrdi

[cellinsky]

14 minutes ago, L3Pl4K said:

Also AMD user, it is not a driver thing. It is the PPI thing.

 

So you say, because I am using a highend gaming monitor, Im actually on a disadvantage here? Ok, thats fine for me. I mostly on SP so it does not matter much. Thanks for claryfying.

[JimTM]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

...

That is why we need a server side setting or icon to let us know what is running on a serve before entering it

Or maybe

Expert  = realistic (not Alternate) visibility and no icons

Icon = Icons 

Custom = whatever servers want to run

 

Servers have three options (that include visibility, among other difficulty settings):

• Expert (Alternate visibility off)
  This server has a double chevron and star icon to the left of the server name in the list.
   
• Normal (Alternate visibility on)   <--- This is not the "normal" that many think of as "normal visibility, before the alternate visibility was added"
  This server has a double chevron to the left of the server name in the list.
   
• Custom (Alternate visibility set by server admin)
  This server has no icon to the left of the server name in the list.
   

Edited October 7, 2019 by JimTM

[6./ZG26_Custard]

10 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

That is not an essential setting.

That is my point, I don't want to fly in a server with Icons or enhanced visibility. I can see if a server is running Icons but there is nothing to indicate that alternative visibility is running in the list of servers unless admins indicate it. I was asking admins in the server but my question was just ignored.

10 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

BTW, whatever the visibility distance is set- ON, its completely WRONG to have bigger plane icons/dots as you zoom out and smaller as you zoom in.

I completely agree. With alternate visibility the zoom function is inverted. That is as you zoom in  aircraft get smaller and as you zoom out they get larger.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[Archie]

Maybe all the 'experts' who enjoy chasing microscopic dots across their monitor could start their own 'expert' server,  to which I'm sure many other 'experts' will flock.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

4 minutes ago, Archie said:

Maybe all the 'experts' who enjoy chasing microscopic dots across their monitor could start their own 'expert' server,  to which I'm sure many other 'experts' will flock.

 

This is a fantastic idea.  Together, they will save multiplayer for this game.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Just now, Archie said:

Maybe all the 'experts' who enjoy chasing microscopic dots across their monitor could start their own 'expert' server,  to which I'm sure many other 'experts' will flock.

Archie, visibility is much improved after the update there is no longer a 10 km bubble. I find the new enhanced visibility settings horrendous but I understand others love it. This is not about elitism, This is about having a choice what settings folks want to fly, I don't know what settings servers are using now.

 

6 minutes ago, JimTM said:

Servers have three options:

 Yes, but we need something to indicate that.

[JimTM]

44 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

...

 Yes, but we need something to indicate that.

 

Ah, sorry. I updated my post with the icons in the server list for expert and normal servers, so at least there is that indication. Unfortunately, there's no icon for custom servers, which make up the majority of the list.

Edited October 7, 2019 by JimTM

[Archie]

6 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Archie, visibility is much improved after the update there is no longer a 10 km bubble. I find the new enhanced visibility settings horrendous but I understand others love it. This is not about elitism, This is about having a choice what settings folks want to fly, I don't know what settings servers are using now.

 

 Yes, but we need something to indicate that.

Well, I guess if the devs don't have the time to do it at the moment it is purely down to the server admins to put the info in the description. It's not as if there's hundreds of servers to trawl through, and if the people running a server like a particular setting there's not much people who don't like that setting can do about it.
I flew online since the 'early '46 days, and always with the 'harder' (not necessarily more real) game settings, as that is what the online wars were using, I've done the 'elite' stuff but these days I can't be bothered but people will vote with their feet, and a server that has the settings and missions people want will get the numbers.
So my original point stands, if the current server admins like the new settings then people are just going to have to start their own server and set it up the way they prefer.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

31 minutes ago, Archie said:

Well, I guess if the devs don't have the time to do it at the moment it is purely down to the server admins to put the info in the description

Hopefully at some point an Icon will be added so we know what is running, we have an icon for normal servers.

31 minutes ago, Archie said:

with the 'harder' (not necessarily more real) game settings, as that is what the online wars were using, I've done the 'elite' stuff

Its not about being harder or "elite" its just about having a choice, something we get in SP but not so much in MP with this new setting added.

31 minutes ago, Archie said:

if the current server admins like the new settings then people are just going to have to start their own server and set it up the way they prefer.

Not everyone has the time, money or expertise to setup, build missions and run a server but I take your point.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[[DBS]TH0R]

Unless I am mistaken, most of the popular servers are now running alternate spotting ON. Due to the fact the "Expert" version is simply not adequate.

 

Tip for devs that would make the majority of people happy:

1. lose the LODs becoming bigger with zooming out, instead keep the current size when zoomed out and increase them when zooming in (for 2D screens)
2. lower the maximum range from +30 odd km bubble to +25 km for the new bubble where planes start to render

It is as simple as that. All of this is trying to re-invent the wheel.

 

@Han No, all of us don't have 20/20 eye sight any more. However the planes we fly in-game and the pilots that flew them were in their 20s and did have excellent vision. Just like all of our planes here are in mint condition, so should the pilots eyesight be every time you take up to the virtual sky...

Edited October 7, 2019 by [DBS]TH0R

[CIA_Yankee_]

On 10/5/2019 at 2:21 PM, [CPT]Crunch said:

Overall its a knockout, us yanks and our isle allies are in for the long haul.  You don't like it, flip the switch.  Thanks for the option Big J, enjoy your stay in Moscow, tell the fella's us unionized 38 drivers are throwing them a big old salute.  Thinking we can spare a few for lend lease in a while.

 

Wait, we have a union?

[kalbuth]

It's not about being elitist, it's about how STUPIDELY obvious the contacts are rendered on Alternate on certain configs (eg. VR).

 

Some people here like to belittle others not aggreeing, apparently....

[Lusekofte]

Seriously. I can see fighters down below on deck from 5 k like massive white Sunderland flyingboats. There is no chance in hell escaping in a bomber no matter altitude. 

This is quite a serious problem, making no room for general purpose aircraft

[Ribbon]

2 hours ago, cellinsky said:

 

How the h... do you guys see anything at this distances ?! With alternate on, the fartest plane I could detect, was about 15 km!! out. (a He111). Im on a 3440x1440 pixel, 32 inch display and its pixeld-ensity is so fine, I even dont use AA. no chance to see sole pixels. I have also an AMD GPU, So maybe a driver thing? I dont have this giant dots in the distance everybody is talking about. Any idea on what Im doing wrong?

Read again, i edited post.....seems while doing tests "alternative settings" were enabled by default.....i thought they were disabled.

I did test again on realistic settings and couldn't see enemy past 10km max in VR.

And my vision is perfect, i do medical exams every 2 years in airforce medical institute.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

15 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

Due to the fact the "Expert" version is simply not adequate.

 

Normal  visibility

 

Enhanced visibility

 

 

And here comes the issue, zoomed in enhanced visibility.

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

Tip for devs that would make the majority of people happy:

There is a better solution, lets just have a server side (normal visibility) icon and people can fly where they want without the guess work and with a choice.

 

 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Using Alternate Spotting;

 

Balanced

 

3840x2160

Low shadows

Simple mirrors

Normal landscape

100k draw distance

Blurred filter

Normal grass

High clouds

60 fps target

 

Dynamic res factor Full

Antialias 4

Gamma 1

 

Fullscreen

Vsync

Sharpen

4k text

 

No "glowing" contacts, though they usually render whitish at distance.  Still requires some zoom to see on 27" monitor.  Certainly not seeing them at 40k.  They render as dots at first, they are not gigantic; and they do not reduce in size when I zoom.

 

I can only guess that other peoples' settings make this much more of an issue than it is for me; or that they are blowing this whole thing out of proportion.

Edited October 7, 2019 by hrafnkolbrandr

[6./ZG26_Custard]

2 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

I can only guess that other peoples' settings make this much more of an issue than it is for me; or that they are blowing this whole thing out of proportion.

Talk to the admins.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

2 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Talk to the admins.

 

Why would I?  You're the expert who needs a server tailored to your needs, not me.  Until then, you can try tweaking your settings- just like we all had to do in order to see anything under the old system.

 

But seriously- you should talk to them.  I want to see an 'expert' server too.

Edited October 7, 2019 by hrafnkolbrandr

[6./ZG26_Custard]

4 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

I can only guess that other peoples' settings make this much more of an issue than it is for me

All joking aside it really is about choice nothing more. I find the alternative setting to be horrendous, I know others love it. We just need an indication or icon.   

2 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

Why would I?  You're expert who needs a server tailored to your needs, not me.

 

I'm no expert, and I tried to talk to the admins and they didn't answer. 

[[DBS]TH0R]

13 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

There is a better solution, lets just have a server side (normal visibility) icon and people can fly where they want without the guess work and with a choice.

 

I don't like the alternate either. However, in comparison to the normal one - there simply isn't a choice. In spite of all the zoom problems I have mentioned (that you failed to quote).

 

And yes, for VR now the spotting is too good. In other words, a bigger problem when alternate is on.

 

Unless devs do something about it, I don't see servers switching back to "normal/expert" in the near future...

Edited October 7, 2019 by [DBS]TH0R

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

2 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

All joking aside it really is about choice nothing more. I find the alternative setting to be horrendous, I know others love it. We just need an indication or icon.   

 

I'm no expert, and I tried to talk to the admins and they didn't answer. 

 

Well either way, I'm not getting the "glow" others have reported, nor the inverted zoom thing.

 

In the meantime it may be worth trying different graphics settings to see if you can find something visually tolerable to you.