WOW on Physiology

[Panzerlang]

My feeling is it's better to be over-modelled than under, to take account of other stuff that can't be modelled at all. And it clearly is (over). Good.

[Pict]

On 10/1/2019 at 10:26 AM, JtD said:

I find the volume of the breathing overdone. These aircraft were LOUD, even with helmets/headset/earplugs being used, it's hard to imagine that your own breath would so easily beat 40 litres of engine displacement in terms of volume (hehe).

 

+1

 

On 10/1/2019 at 11:25 AM, Bremspropeller said:

 

That's certainly true, but lacking other means of showing how your virtual avatar is doing physiologically, this does the job quite well.

Also, while possibly not being albe to hear it, you'll be quite aware of your hard breathing/ g-straining.

 

Sounds more like the sharp intake of breath you'd expect to hear when someone gets a kick in the back wheels  

 

Could be that was idea and the sound clip was intended to be linked to the g-string-straining that must happen when your pilots head winds up against the instrument panel and under the gun-sight just in time to lose the bandit you were chasing 

[SCG_motoadve]

I do think G modelling is spot ON, and congrats to the developers for that, which is a game changer.

I do fly some warbirds maneuvers in real life, G forces are hard on the body.

Flying and fighting is more realistic and fun now, and fortunately most people seem to be very happy with it, no more UFOs.

 

They gave the option to turn it OFF if you someone does not like it, can done in SP or server choice.

 

 

 

Picture: Breaking formation , diving to a 4G pull to a wing over.

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by II./JG77_motoadve

[KG200_Achilleus]

1 hour ago, moosya said:

 

you're really quick shutting down folks yet can't take any criticism yourself. You provided a video after 2 pages of constant "you guys are noobs"...

 

give me some time, I'll get you a vid.

 

If you make one,please don't forget to have physiology option on..;)

Anyway serious now,

this maneuver is made with full right rudder,and almost 10-15% the stick down(positive elevator).

you can see the rudder its self pressing all the way down in the video..

no tricks made,its so simple that everyone can try it and see it by himself..

And please guys, don't talk about this video that it is a heavy G’s maneuver,some real life pilots maybe watching us now and laughing..;)

[CIA_Yankee_]

It'd be a lot easier to take those claims seriously if the poster didn't sound like a troll so much...

[KG200_Achilleus]

6 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

It'd be a lot easier to take those claims seriously if the poster didn't sound like a troll so much...

no hard feelings mate,

the troll goes to the trollers,and they know pretty well who they are and who started it first..

[Darkmouse]

2 hours ago, Nocke said:

Even if numbers are not your thing: We got a real world acrobatics champion here in the forum who said he thinks it is well done. I would value that higher as your opinion, if we keep talking just opinions.

If he is a world aerobatic champion then I can absolutely, 100% assure you that he does not black out at 6g and experience g-loc at 7. I wouldn't be surprised if he could withstand 10-12g instantaneously. 

[Blackhawk_FR]

6 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

Don't waste time mate in here,

you will see only answers regarding how really good is this G effect now and how real it has become,as now its a real sim game and it wasn't before..

and of course who ever argues in that,he is nothing else than a chicken or a kid who cries because they destroyed his game..

I am afraid that this is the IQ level we are dealing with,and this will not ever change..

 

Again: As soon as you can't tell how much G you take in that barrel roll, we can't move forward on that discussion. 

You shared a video, that's a good start. It's still better than personal feelings and opinions. 

When are you going to fucking understand that?

 

Oh and by the way, taking up to +9 and -8G is my job so I know something about, I guess. 

But I wish we could have an information that show how much G the pilot take (with arcade settings). For sure the way you do your barrel roll, you take a lot of G for sure, I bet more than 5. 

And even if I had this information, and compare it with my aerobatic experience, that's still not enough to judge the model in game that take into account the known (from experience and tests) average resistance of a trained fighter pilot.

2 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

And please guys, don't talk about this video that it is a heavy G’s maneuver,some real life pilots maybe watching us now and laughing..;)

 

That is a high G maneuver...... 

[KG200_Achilleus]

34 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

For sure the way you do your barrel roll, you take a lot of G for sure, I bet more than 5. 

And even if I had this information, and compare it with my aerobatic experience,.

 

your aerobatic experience??where?in rc planes?

lol

if you have some skills and experience indeed,you can clearly see in the video that my alt before the maneuver is 160meters,i then make a climb to 210meters,and at the finish of the roll i am back again to my starting alt of 160meters.

my speed is 420klm at the beginning of the roll,and at the end if roll is only 380klm.

So,we have only a 50meter diameter barrel which the roll is performed, and only 40klm loss of speed which clearly means that the spiral roll was made not to hard.

If those are not facts for you and some others, then i am really sorry but you lack off flight perception..

 

P.S. forgot to tell,and the total time of the hole roll was 3sec..;)

Edited October 8, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[ZachariasX]

3 minutes ago, J3Hetzer said:

No it's not.

You think so? Pretty easy hurting your passenger plenty like that.

Just now, KG200_Achilleus said:

your aerobatic experience??where?in rc planes?

This is not gonna age well.

[MaxTurn]

“The Barrel roll is a combination between a loop and a roll. You complete one loop while completing one roll at the same time. The flight path during a barrel roll has the shape of a horizontal cork screw. Imagine a big barrel, with the airplanes wheels rolling along the inside of the barrel in a cork screw path. During a barrel roll, the pilot always experiences positive Gs. The maximum is about 2.5 to 3 G. The minimum about 0.5 G.”   https://www.iac.org/  WIKI has a nice diagram of a barrel roll.

The point made earlier about the rate of the rate of change (jerk or the third derivative) is valid.  The above is from the International Aerobatic Club but if one just throws the aircraft through the roll then you would increase the jerk which would increase the stress on the aircraft and the pilot.

I think this is an argument that will not be resolved anytime soon.  20 plus years ago there was an aerobatic flight sim that I used to fly.  I thought it was very realistic. But if you exceeded the velocity to never exceed (by much) then the plane would fall apart.  You would also hear a short scream from the pilot. I screamed a lot.

[Panzerlang]

Approx five seconds at 420kmh with 50m per second per second. Lol. Screw working that formula out.

I would like to think the maths in the code is solid and the blackout can't be a result of a glitch. Clearly Gs are being pulled due to it being a barrel roll, not a straight roll. So, formula time. How would that translate into a straight pull-up at 420kmh? What angle of elevator would be required to describe a diameter of 50m for five seconds at 420kmh, dropping to 380kmh?

Very weird, I can't get even close to blacking out doing the same roll. A touch of red, zero grey. I had to dive and pull out very hard at 500kmh to get a black out and it took it's time even then (in a G14).

Maybe I'm fitter. ?

Edited October 8, 2019 by J3Hetzer

[KG200_Achilleus]

6 minutes ago, J3Hetzer said:

Approx five seconds at 420kmh with 50m per second per second. Lol. Screw working that formula out.

I would like to think the maths in the code is solid and the blackout can't be a result of a glitch. Clearly Gs are being pulled due to it being a barrel roll, not a straight roll. So, formula time. How would that translate into a straight pull-up at 420kmh? What angle of elevator would be required to describe a diameter of 50m for five seconds at 420kmh, dropping to 380kmh?

 

there are 3 seconds at the time the rolls starts until the blacking out..

and as we speak for a barrel roll,this is performed many many times from many real life pilots aerobatic or not,even real life rookie pilot can do this..

[Requiem]

3 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

 

If you make one,please don't forget to have physiology option on..;)

Anyway serious now,

this maneuver is made with full right rudder,and almost 10-15% the stick down(positive elevator).

you can see the rudder its self pressing all the way down in the video..

no tricks made,its so simple that everyone can try it and see it by himself..

And please guys, don't talk about this video that it is a heavy G’s maneuver,some real life pilots maybe watching us now and laughing..;)

 

 - I'm starting at 600 km/hr and not 450km/hr.

- The rolls are relatively close in G-load yet the second one has a lower physiological effect on my pilot. The body caught up to the initial G onset and recovered to compensate.

- The problem with your maneuver is your rapid onset initially then coupling it with high G at the bottom of the spiral causes the blackout.

 

For numbers to be aware of: AGSM begins at about +5.0G, blackout for non-G suit pilots +6.5G, blackout for g-suit pilots +8.0G

 

 

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

As a real world pilot with aerobatics experience. (Used to own a Yak-52) I feel like the blackout mechanic is over done as in the pilot blacks out to easy. I've pulled 6Gs before without vision fading,it's all down to proper technique and being in shape.

[KG200_Achilleus]

18 minutes ago, II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33 said:

As a real world pilot with aerobatics experience. (Used to own a Yak-52) I feel like the blackout mechanic is over done as in the pilot blacks out to easy. I've pulled 6Gs before without vision fading,it's all down to proper technique and being in shape.

At last..

23 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

 

 - I'm starting at 600 km/hr and not 450km/hr.

- The rolls are relatively close in G-load yet the second one has a lower physiological effect on my pilot. The body caught up to the initial G onset and recovered to compensate.

- The problem with your maneuver is your rapid onset initially then coupling it with high G at the bottom of the spiral causes the blackout.

 

For numbers to be aware of: AGSM begins at about +5.0G, blackout for non-G suit pilots +6.5G, blackout for g-suit pilots +8.0G

 

 

almost blacked in 2 sec.,

Very nicely done and smooth btw..

Edited October 8, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[Blackhawk_FR]

35 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

your aerobatic experience??where?in rc planes?

lol

 

Ha, ha, ha.

Spoiler

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33 said:

As a real world pilot with aerobatics experience. (Used to own a Yak-52) I feel like the blackout mechanic is over done as in the pilot blacks out to easy. I've pulled 6Gs before without vision fading,it's all down to proper technique and being in shape.

 

I have the same feeling. But, it's just a... feeling.

Whatever it is over or under done, the improvement is still huge compare to what we had before. 

[Darkmouse]

22 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

 

 

For numbers to be aware of: AGSM begins at about +5.0G, blackout for non-G suit pilots +6.5G, blackout for g-suit pilots +8.0G

 

 

In your video you pull about a maximum of 5.5g - why on earth is the pilot experiencing 70% vision loss? 

 

I am trying my best not to get drawn into a discussion that will never be won, but for a relatively experienced pilot, 6g requires little effort.  

[KG200_Achilleus]

13 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

Ha, ha, ha.

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

In the video..a friend of yours..???:)))

Edited October 8, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[Darkmouse]

21 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

I have the same feeling. But, it's just a... feeling

 

Now we are getting somewhere - what is your personal g tolerance? At what point flying the extra do you start to get uncomfortable?    

[Requiem]

57 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

At last..

almost blacked in 2 sec.,

Very nicely done and smooth btw..

No worries. My goal was simply to see the physiological effects as soon as possible so I was harder with my maneuvering than I usually would be. You can easily perform continuous barrel rolls without ever experiencing the colour loss phase.

 

37 minutes ago, Darkmouse said:

In your video you pull about a maximum of 5.5g - why on earth is the pilot experiencing 70% vision loss? 

 

I am trying my best not to get drawn into a discussion that will never be won, but for a relatively experienced pilot, 6g requires little effort.  

I really don't know how accurate Tacview is in measuring all the different parameters so I can't say for certain the max I was pulling was +5.5 in the video (it would take some testing to try and verify if Tacview is accurate). In the K4 with some other flights I made (according to Tacview) I've reached 6G in a regular turn without blacking out and with better vision than in the demo above because I smoothly applied G without a relatively rapid onset.

 

I don't disagree with you at all that nowadays pilot's can hold +6G no problem. I just think we need to look at it through a lens where we are simulating an average WWII pilot with this and not a modern day acrobatic pilot. If a change was added I think it should be how the tunnel vision through fading to black occurs, so it coincides with G-loc when peaking at max G. I think right now you can be what appears to be all black but not lose consciousness so I'm not sure if the two effects match up completely. As it stands now though I'm really enjoying this new aspect of Il-2. It's actually made the gyroscopic sights useful now for example, because before the patch quite often with the G people were pulling if you pulled for lead the sight would never be visible which rendered them pointless to take in my opinion. Now I'm finding myself actually getting to use the gyro sights as expected because people can't yank as hard as they could before without consequence.

Edited October 8, 2019 by SYN_Requiem
grammar

[Cpt_Cool]

1 hour ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

your aerobatic experience??where?in rc planes?

lol

 

 

 

 

lol

Edited October 8, 2019 by Cpt_Cool

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Got into an "unlimited ammo", "unlimited waves". 1v1, QMB killing spree with a Yak-7 last night.  Fought until the fuel ran out. From my observations, I have to ask, how many G-heavy maneuvers in a row are people pulling before they pick their example video for their point to be made?  

At one point I got the pilot so tired I was getting heavy grey-out on any even remotely strong maneuver.  Need just a few seconds of 2G to dodge an enemy?  Be careful.    After managing to extend away from the AI spawn point far enough to rest, my pilot's G tolerance went up.  

 

Unless it's obvious the pilot is absolutely fresh in gameplay videos and Tac View, it can only be assumed that example maneuvering videos meant provide evidence to back a person's claim are cherry-picked to that person's advantage.

 

 

Aside from that, for my general knowledge....    Is 6Gs at 700kph more "intense" than 6Gs at 350kph or is 6Gs the same no matter the speed?

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Mobile_BBQ

[Blackhawk_FR]

6 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

Is 6Gs at 700kph more "intense" than 6Gs at 350kph or is 6Gs the same not matter the speed?

 

6G is 6G, whatever the speed  

[Requiem]

2 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

Got into an "unlimited ammo", "unlimited waves". 1v1, QMB killing spree with a Yak-7 last night.  Fought until the fuel ran out. From my observations, I have to ask, how many G-heavy maneuvers in a row are people pulling before they pick their example video for their point to be made?  

At one point I got the pilot so tired I was getting heavy grey-out on any even remotely strong maneuver.  Need just a few seconds of 2G to dodge an enemy?  Be careful.    After managing to extend away from the AI spawn point far enough to rest, my pilot's G tolerance went up.  

 

Unless it's obvious the pilot is absolutely fresh in gameplay videos and Tac View, it can only be assumed that example maneuvering videos meant provide evidence to back a person's claim are cherry-picked to that person's advantage.

 

 

Aside from that, for my general knowledge....    Is 6Gs at 700kph more "intense" than 6Gs at 350kph or is 6Gs the same not matter the speed?

 

My demo isn't cherry picked. It's to provide a direct comparison with Achilleus' video because his was a fresh pilot as well as far as I was aware. You're absolutely right that the more you maneuver heavily the less tolerance you have, so it was important to show a video with the same initial pilot conditions. No comparison can be made otherwise.

 

The G is the same regardless of the airspeed. I just started with a higher airspeed so I could maintain higher G for longer. If I started at 450km/hr or lower I probably wouldn't be able to maintain the higher G-load all the way around those two rolls.

[Darkmouse]

4 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

As it stands now though I'm really enjoying this new aspect of Il-2. It's actually made the gyroscopic sights useful now for example, because before the patch quite often with the G people were pulling if you pulled for lead the sight would never be visible which rendered them pointless to take in my opinion. Now I'm finding myself actually getting to use the gyro sights as expected because people can't yank as hard as they could before without consequence.

 

Fully on board with that and I'm not disagreeing that the update is beneficial - just that the current virtual pilot is a weakling, and the effect could do with some fine tuning. Whether flying a modern aerobatic monster or a ww2 fighter, g tolerance builds with continual exposure - it doesn't take long at all to acclimatise to fairly high g loads - natural selection would weed out those who couldn't.   

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 minute ago, SYN_Requiem said:

My demo isn't cherry picked. 

 

And it's obvious that your pilot was fresh enough to make that maneuver.  Don't worry Requiem, I wasn't on you about it.  I am quite aware of ACTL.  I have zero doubt of you're competence to get the most out of the sim. 

[KG200_Achilleus]

14 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

And it's obvious that your pilot was fresh enough to make that maneuver.  Don't worry Requiem, I wasn't on you about it.  I am quite aware of ACTL.  I have zero doubt of you're competence to get the most out of the sim. 

 

If we’re starting to make such a tricks to show something,then what is the point of this conversation?

I can make another video but it is useless,

you can check it by your self and see what happens.

make a 50m diameter barrel roll,not 200m diameter as Requiem did,and you will get your results.,

Edited October 8, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[kalbuth]

1 hour ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

 

In the video..a friend of yours..???:)))

Il le fait exprès, c'est pas possible... ?

[Blackhawk_FR]

7 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

make a 50m diameter barrel roll,not 300m diameter as Requiem did,and you will get your results.,

 

You just will never understand. 

Your barrel roll generate a lot of Gs. It's not only a question of diameter, it's also about your "rate of pulling". 

 

 

Please dev, give us an accelerometer....... 

Edited October 8, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[KG200_Achilleus]

9 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

You just will never understand. 

Your barrel roll generate a lot of Gs. It's not only a question of diameter, it's also about your "rate of pull". 

rate of pull + rolls diameter, both concludes to the time that needed till the roll is complete..

the more time you need to make it,the softer the roll it is,so much less Gs..

thats why i marked in my previous post that if a video is made please to be done with the same roll speed(time to complete)...

Edited October 8, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[RedKestrel]

The trolling in this thread is so severe all the blood is leaving my brain and I'm blacking out at only 1G.

[KG200_Achilleus]

And for the history,

in my video the roll completed in 4.5 seconds,

while in Requiems video the roll completed in 8 seconds.,

almost twice the time

[Aap]

4 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

And for the history,

in my video the roll completed in 4.5 seconds,

while in Requiems video the roll completed in 8 seconds.,

almost twice the time

 

So, you pulled too much G, blacked out, died. Point proved. End of story.

[KG200_Achilleus]

1 minute ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

So, you pulled too much G, blacked out, died. Point proved. End of story.

yes i believe the Gs would be about 12-14..

thank god you find the solution at last..

lol

[Blackhawk_FR]

11 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

And for the history,

in my video the roll completed in 4.5 seconds,

while in Requiems video the roll completed in 8 seconds.,

almost twice the time

 

There are so different ways to make a barrel roll that it's more complicated than you think. 

For example, in your, you keep pulling hard (if it's not more) when you're coming back at horizontal position (upright). While Requiem release a little bit. 

So you take more Gs. End of the story. We are still not able to say how much G exacly you took. 

[KG200_Achilleus]

11 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

There are so different ways to make a barrel roll that it's more complicated than you think. 

For example, in your, you keep pulling hard (if it's not more) when you're coming back at horizontal position (upright). While Requiem release a little bit. 

So you take more Gs. End of the story. We are still not able to say how much G exacly you took. 

 

In my roll would be 4-6Gs the most,(for 2 seconds)

and in Requiems 3-5 -Gs the most..

if you think that this is called end of story, then ask a pro to tell you a second thought..;)

[Blackhawk_FR]

I'm not saying I know everything, but... I have about 300h of aerobatics as PIC and about 500 as aerobatic FI. Is it a good experience or not?

Edited October 8, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[KG200_Achilleus]

11 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

I'm not saying I know everything, but... I have about 300h of aerobatics as PIC and about 500 as aerobatic FI. Is it a good experience or not?

of course it is, thats why you should know from the first hand that those maneuvers aren't over 5-6Gs..

Its a pity that some other pros in here said that before,and you didnt..

[357th_Dog]

6 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

of course it is, thats why you should know from the first hand that those maneuvers aren't over 5-6Gs..

Its a pity that some other pros in here said that before,and you didnt..

So you're saying he's wrong?