WOW on Physiology

[Goffik]

I've only had a quick go with this new system outside of dogfights so far, but I'm really liking it! Trying to work out the limits is fun, and it'll be interesting to see how it affects my battles from now on. I've managed to kill myself twice with blackouts so far. Kind of eerie in VR to black out and get that ringing noise and then suddenly... BOOM! You're a grease spot.

[Guest deleted@83466]

I was in a flight of 4 Tempests last night, somebody called out a bandit, and seconds later we were all asleep.  All four of us broke away and went into gloc.  This will definitely take some getting used to.

[-SF-Disarray]

Is it just me or is the G-loc effect more pronounced with the Tempest? In my playing around with it and other planes I've noticed that the malefactors of G loading set in earlier and last longer in turns with the Tempest when compared to similar tuns in other planes.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, /SF/Disarray said:

Is it just me or is the G-loc effect more pronounced with the Tempest? In my playing around with it and other planes I've noticed that the malefactors of G loading set in earlier and last longer in turns with the Tempest when compared to similar tuns in other planes.

 

A product of having a higher performance aircraft methinks!

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

The physiology is great, but....   Even though they do eventually hit the ground if worked hard enough, the AI He-111 is absolutely the P-38's turn-fight archenemy.   

[CIA_Yankee_]

1 minute ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

The physiology is great, but....   Even though they do eventually hit the ground if worked hard enough, the AI He-111 is absolutely the P-38's turn-fight archenemy.   

 

How so?

 

Not that the P-38 should ever try to turn with the He-111... or any fighter at all. Just keep going, climb up and come screaming back down on them. If they turn, then it's an easy deflection shot. Boom.

[zelil]

Please tell me they added this to external view. Players that g out just switch to external view to get sight back. 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

21 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

 

How so?

 

Not that the P-38 should ever try to turn with the He-111... or any fighter at all. Just keep going, climb up and come screaming back down on them. If they turn, then it's an easy deflection shot. Boom.

 

For the sake of argument, turn and burn with one (1v1 mode).  You'll see what I mean.  For that matter, just stick to boom and zoom. You'll see what I mean.  

Edited October 1, 2019 by =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Have any of you made your pilot sick yet? Rock the stick forward and back for 30 seconds or so and see what happens. Dev's went above and beyond with this one.

[Goffik]

1 hour ago, zelil said:

Please tell me they added this to external view. Players that g out just switch to external view to get sight back. 

 

If their pilot is blacked out then it makes little difference. They won't be able to control their plane.

[Voidhunger]

3 hours ago, /SF/Disarray said:

Is it just me or is the G-loc effect more pronounced with the Tempest? In my playing around with it and other planes I've noticed that the malefactors of G loading set in earlier and last longer in turns with the Tempest when compared to similar tuns in other planes.

With my testing Dora is really bad, tempest and Bf109 are quite ok and the king is mustang, gsuit feels like cheating (Didnt test lightning and jug yet)

[ICDP]

17 minutes ago, Goffik said:

 

If their pilot is blacked out then it makes little difference. They won't be able to control their plane.

 

This is key.  If a server has externals disabled then you are stuck in a black screen with no control.  What is even nicer is that you become less resilient to G Forces the more you keep blacking out.  So a fresh pilots gets an edge and don't forget the G Suits for the USAAF BoBp planes gives them a decent edge in combat.

Edited October 1, 2019 by ICDP

[-SF-Disarray]

I did a little more testing and some side by side comparisons with the help of a friend and we determined that the 'problem' with the Tempest was in fact all in my head. Largely it was a mater of not realizing exactly how fast that plane moves.

[Rjel]

49 minutes ago, /SF/Disarray said:

 "that the 'problem' with the Tempest was in fact all in my head."

Black out caused by loss of blood to one's brain. The outcome of your testing seems a little ironic, dontcha think???

[[DNKN]GoNuts4Donuts17]

I like the new feature. I need to break bad habits now. Requiem nailed me as a result of the new physiology. I came up behind two Tempests in my K4, my initial burst missed one and followed him in a dive. I blacked out and when I came to, my engine was seizing and my 109 shot to hell, forcing me to bail out. I wasnt out long either, he's a hell of a pilot!

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

I was engaging a P-38 in my 110 and I made my gunner black out. The animation of him passing out was great, however when he came to, he instantaneously was back at the guns in a split second! He went from lying down to sitting up in a snap. It was hilarious! He didn't even need to shake it off. Like a BOSS as they say!

[gimpy117]

I wish you got a little more warning when pulling g's, oh well it's something i'll need to get used to. it will definitely make Boom and Zoom people fly more careful 

[Blackhawk_FR]

3 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

I wish you got a little more warning when pulling g's, oh well it's something i'll need to get used to. it will definitely make Boom and Zoom people fly more careful 

 

You have the warnings: loss of colors, vision getting narrow until completely black.

The problem is the effect of Gs on your body come with a little delay (few seconds). So you can pull (if the aircraft make it possible, like the Tempest) a large amount a G, even for a short time, you may black out right after even if you don't pull anymore. 

 

As I'm used to take many high Gs in my "work", I have to say those new G effects and the new pilot tiredness model are fu***** amazing 

Edited October 2, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Mac_Messer]

My first flight post update - lost consciousness and crashed. A welcome change that affects everything and changes the way we fly.

 

Sad part is AI can`t cope with it. Prior to v3.2 AI could pull out epic snapshots on me while flying the Spit, now it just blacks out and pummels into the ground.

[GSP_Hund]

Yep, it needs to be dialed back a bit.  Was in a fight flying a 190D9 against a human Tempest pilot and it was a battle of not passing out rather than dogfighting.

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by GSP_Hund

[Diggun]

I think it's perfect as is. D9 V. Tempest dogfight definitely WOULD have been a battle of passing out first and dog-fighting 2nd. These machines can operate well beyond a human's physical tolerances, and don't have any fancy fly-by-wire limiters preventing you from forcing your brain into your knees during manoeuvres. 

 

All the dogfights I've been involved in (ai & online) since the update have married MUCH more closely to contemporary descriptions and gun camera footage than they did beforehand.

[ZachariasX]

5 minutes ago, GSP_Hund said:

Yep, it needs to be dialed back a bit.  Was in a fight with 190D9 against a human Tempest pilot and it was a battle of not passing out rather than dogfighting.

 

Whats wrong with that at these speeds? And why isn‘t that dogfighting? You should try FC then. 

[GSP_Hund]

Gentlemen, go back a read the history from the war back then, how many first hand accounts do you read where a pilot says "man I blacked out" while dogfighting an enemy.  Very seldom, and they pushed their machines to their limits.  The setting they have now are more for modern tactical jets pulling 9g and flying & fighting at 500 knots, not 300-400 mph.

[Bremspropeller]

12 minutes ago, GSP_Hund said:

Yep, it needs to be dialed back a bit.  Was in a fight flying a 190D9 against a human Tempest pilot and it was a battle of not passing out rather than dogfighting.

 

That's because dogfighting has never been realistic in flightsims before.

 

Get a ride on a reasonably well performing airplane and ask the pilot to pull 4g repeatedly for 5-10 minutes and see how well you are doing.

Most people have no idea how physically challenging that activity actually is. On top of the physical challenge, your body tends to drain energy overcoming heat, changes in pressure and the mental picture of what is going on.

 

Only if you are in good physical and metal shape, you'll be able to withstand those factors for a sizeable amount of time.

[Diggun]

2 minutes ago, GSP_Hund said:

Gentlemen, go back a read the history from the war back then, how many first hand accounts do you read where a pilot says "man I blacked out"

I've read plenty, thanks, and they admit to greying and blacking out very frequently. 

 

This system is based on medical studies from multiple sources, empirical scientific data. I'm sorry you think you know better, but I'll go with the science thanks.

Edited October 2, 2019 by [_FLAPS_]Diggun

[Bremspropeller]

1 minute ago, GSP_Hund said:

Gentlemen, go back a read the history from the war back then, how many first hand accounts do you read where a pilot says "man I blacked out" while dogfighting an enemy.  Very seldom, and they pushed their machines to their limits.  The setting they have now are more for modern tactical jets pulling 9g and flying & fighting at 500 knots, not 300-400 mph.

 

That's because they flew their aircraft differently.

The new physiological model in game is based on scientific research papers, rather then what some pilot saw, wrote down and what you interpret from it.

 

Pulling 9g at 300mph is no different than pulling 9g at 500 knots. It's the same 9g.

At 500 knot you'll be travelling faster with the lights out, making the whole affair even more dangerous.

There were in fact a couple of crashes in the early 80s, when the USAF got their first "real" 9g jet with the F-16.

[GSP_Hund]

Mr. Bremspropoller, I'v had 3 flights on F-16s as an intel troop back in the day, 1v1 + 2v2 + Night time CAS mission, and broke the sound barrier and did 9g on multiple occasions on the first two missions, yes it takes a lot out of you but I did not pass out and it was very disorientating at times keeping eyes on the fight.  But I know I was an intel guy not a pilot, it really comes down to sustained g, in older aircraft like these you start to lose speed and energy quit quickly, then g starts to drop.  I'm the dude on the right in the pic, that was after a 1v1.  Dial it back . . .

[ZachariasX]

4 minutes ago, GSP_Hund said:

Gentlemen, go back a read the history from the war back then, how many first hand accounts do you read where a pilot says "man I blacked out" while dogfighting an enemy.  Very seldom, and they pushed their machines to their limits.  The setting they have now are more for modern tactical jets pulling 9g and flying & fighting at 500 knots, not 300-400 mph.

Trust me, it would be easy to „switch yourself off“ on planes like the Tempest, the Spit or the D9. But doing so gives you lots if hurt. As you even require all of your physical strength to do so, you‘d be naturally careful not to do so if not really needed.

 

I reiterate, if you want epic goofing around in wild maneuvers, nothing beats our FC planes.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

I like it. Surely the end of the hamfisted unrealistic bat turns. Or you will see a lot of lawndarts. 

[JtD]

I find it interesting that so many people have to change their dogfighting style. For me, the new model changes very little, apart from hearing the annoying mouth breathing from time to time. Guess it's because I've always been flying tactically and fighting for superior position if at all, rather than flying with the stick pulled back all the way to get onto the enemies tail.

[ZachariasX]

11 minutes ago, GSP_Hund said:

 it really comes down to sustained g, in older aircraft like these you start to lose speed and energy quit quickly, then g starts to drop

Congrats! But those older aircraft have about 2000 hp and at 550+ km/h you‘re not at an AoA that is slowing you down that much. In fact, this sim is remarkably close to the real thing in these regards.

 

Regarding g tolerance, just sit upright on your chute for once and see how comfortable you are at 6+ g. Remember, it is not unusual that you have to pull 100 lbs for that in these planes for pulling that many g.

 

3 minutes ago, JtD said:

I find it interesting that so many people have to change their dogfighting style. For me, the new model changes very little, apart from hearing the annoying mouth breathing from time to time. Guess it's because I've always been flying tactically and fighting for superior position if at all, rather than flying with the stick pulled back all the way to get onto the enemies tail.

I wonder how popular the split flaps will be now that they take away alpha in a scissor.

Edited October 2, 2019 by ZachariasX

[GSP_Hund]

Just keep in mind you angry folks, I said dial it back not eliminate it.  I know you guys like to shut everyone down who does not agree with your smarty pants view, just let the dialog go on without getting angry.  Love & peace!

[danielprates]

What about oxygen deprivation? Has anyone suffered damage to the breathing system when in high altitude? 

[HR_Tumu]

Is a great adittion no doubt.

 

What do you think about negative gs?

 

I expect the famous jerking like crazy kangaro will be end... its true this historical famous dogfight tactic many times is used on low speeds.... but inclusively at high speed. Negative G seems to soft.

 

[Bremspropeller]

2 minutes ago, GSP_Hund said:

Mr. Bremspropoller, I'v had 3 flights on F-16s as an intel troop back in the day, 1v1 + 2v2 + Night time CAS mission, and broke the sound barrier and did 9g on multiple occasions on the first two missions, yes it takes a lot out of you but I did not pass out and it was very disorientating at times keeping eyes on the fight.  But I know I was an intel guy not a pilot, it really comes down to sustained g, in older aircraft like these you start to lose speed and energy quit quickly, then g starts to drop.  I'm the dude on the right in the pic, that was after a 1v1.  Dial it back . . .

 

I won't dial back anything - you're making a claim, so back it up.

War stories of "I once flew in a jet" are nice, but not representative at all:

 

1) How much flying did you do during the fight? I guess you were pretty much maxed out with keeping SA, much less fumbling with the stick (which is a lot less effort to move in the F-16 than on other airplanes, but that's a different road to go down).

2) Could the fact that you did well have had something to do with the pilot knowing how to operate the jet and staying out of the G-LOC corner?

3) You probably got slow quickly, hence Gs in corners dropped, too. How much time was spent turning?

4) The speed jeans you're wearing, plus the inclined seat in the F-16 are reducing the G your body feels by about two counts. So 9g was about 7g without that tech.

5) Was your physical shape comparable to a 20yr old pilot in WW2 with a minimal ration of mostly sh1tty food, lots of drinking and cigarettes?

6) What was your preparation? Did somebody teach you how to properly g-strain? Again, with the F-16 coming up in the early 80s, that area got a lot of scientific research thrown at it. Most of which was unknown in the 1940s.

7) What was your level of physical shape at the day of flying? G-tolerance changes from day to day (and can be increased).

 

 

[Voidhunger]

Its a certainly nice feature. Well done!

I have a slight problem with the Dora. Its very maneuverable at high speed, but you cant use it now. If in reality gsuit in mustang was so good, hats down, its terrific advantage.

When i tried mustang yesterday i thought they forgott to implement physio. in this plane.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Voidhunger

[Aap]

Tried it out yesterday in QMB and have really good impression of it. Like it a lot.

Only looks like AI has to learn to fly with it, too. I managed to maneuver-kill a Me-262 in Yak-1 three times in a row.

[[DBS]Browning]

51 minutes ago, GSP_Hund said:

Gentlemen, go back a read the history from the war back then, how many first hand accounts do you read where a pilot says "man I blacked out" while dogfighting an enemy.  Very seldom, and they pushed their machines to their limits.  The setting they have now are more for modern tactical jets pulling 9g and flying & fighting at 500 knots, not 300-400 mph.

 

"The pilot of this Spitfire blacked out whilst practicing aerobatics."

"Pilot blacked out during loop, and aircraft dived into ground"

"he was crushed down in the seat by high 'G' force [..] At this point the pilot lost consciousness"

"he lost consciousness during a dive from 23,000 feet"

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/_prodn list.txt (see planes: P7671, R7063, AB200, MV430, SR483. All of which crashed after blackouts)

Anthony F. Martindale famous 11g dive/blackout

'We probably lost a few pilots because they blacked-out as they pulled out of the dive, and then failed to come round properly before the aircraft crashed’. - Sergeant/Warrant Officer Stanley (Mike) Widdowson: Spitfire Pilot, 92 Squadron 1944 — 1945.

"I went into an inverted spin and blacked out completely. I came to, thought I was in hospital and remember calling for tea."

 

It didn't take long to find 11 first hand accounts of just spitfire pilots blacking out.

There are countless more I haven't found.

More still where the pilot simply recovered and no report was made.

Even more times when no one survived to present an account.

Edited October 2, 2019 by [DBS]Browning

[Bremspropeller]

The g-suit adds about 1g to your positive g tolerance.

It does zip to improve on negative g-tolerance, though.

[SCG_motoadve]

Its a game changer and it is spot ON, very impressed with the developers .

Makes you fly and think as a real pilot , and your own limitations, not only the aircraft limitations.(which is the way I fly in real life when on the warbird).

Air combat simulation has never been so realistic.

G forces are hard on the body and tiring , many WWII pilots accounts of pilots passing out, not once but multiple times, read the Big Show by Pierre Closterman, he describes passing out during combat more than once.

 

IMHO no need to be dialed down, team did a great job.

Edited October 2, 2019 by II./JG77_motoadve