I kinda feel cheated

[Mmaruda]

No, I'm not ranting about MP 1337 Hax00rz, I mostly (just mostly) play offline and the damn AI is stealing my kills! I honestly don't know, if I should feel pissed or impressed by how the AI models real people online (tee-hee).

 

It's the same story over and over.

 

It's like, here is me, in my badass Spit, tailing a 109, I shwack him with me hispanos, next up another 109, out of cannon so I pepper the bastard with peeshooters, wing snaps off, hell yeah, third dude gets the leftovers of my bean can and bleeds brown from all holes. Zero beans and chestnuts at this point, so off to base for glory, vodka and factory girls' bath water. The commissar says I only shot down one, and guess what, it's the dude who I only damaged. Oh yeah, them shoulder-shooting wingmen got my rubbles, blin!

 

Jokes aside, I don't know how I feel about this, on the one hand, feels bad man, I did my part for Mother Usea, on the other, them sneaky bastards got some good aim not hitting me even once, which is more than I can say for the online experience. No idea, if I want this patched at some point or not.

 

You guys ever feels something is very wrong with the game, but has become such a big part of it, you're not really sure, you want it fixed?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

At least your AI wingmen are hitting something...

[PatrickAWlson]

I like it when my AI mates get some.  I can always get my share.

[Yogiflight]

I don't understand your issue, when my AI wingmen try to shouldershoot me, they usually hit me instead of the enemy plane. So it looks to me, you are some lucky bastard

[Guest deleted@83466]

Honestly, if the AI is "stealing" your kills, you might need to spend more time practicing and improving your skills.  And even in multiplayer, the concept of a stolen kill, as if you were somehow personally entitled to it, is pretty bogus.  I suppose if you are tight on an enemy, the AI could have some logic in there to not shoulder shoot or fall into a supporting role, but don't count on it.

Edited September 3, 2019 by SeaSerpent

[danielprates]

13 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I don't understand your issue, when my AI wingmen try to shouldershoot me, they usually hit me instead of the enemy plane. So it looks to me, you are some lucky bastard

 

Boy does that sound about right! They can be deadly on those situations. Its when I order them to stay put, to try to orient a better plan, that the thing usually falls apart and they do whatever the hell they want. But when it comes for them to shoot me by accident, they are pros.

 

 

[Mmaruda]

9 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Honestly, if the AI is "stealing" your kills, you might need to spend more time practicing and improving your skills.  And even in multiplayer, the concept of a stolen kill, as if you were somehow personally entitled to it, is pretty bogus.  I suppose if you are tight on an enemy, the AI could have some logic in there to not shoulder shoot or fall into a supporting role, but don't count on it.

 

Ok, so I get this is a game, but in a RL situation, the wingman's job is to cover the leader, not take opportunistic pot-shots at the lead's target. Normally, if a pilot did that IRL, they would get their ass chewed. Top Gun is sort of an example of this - there is a scene where this is made a big plot issue and results in Goose's death - Maverick should have kept his distance and chilled, instead of being so desperate to get points. It's made arbitrary by the fact that Ice gets in front and then does does not have good shot, yet insists on being a try-hard, but again he should be the lead in this case and Mav is supposed to cover his ass, not contest him. Or if Mav was the actual lead, Ice has no business going in front. Entitlement has nothing to do with it, it's just basic roles in a combat situation, you are supposed to do the job assigned to you, not hotshot for points, because that leads to dangerous situations that could cause the unnecessary loss lives. You know, like Goose dying? Cause there is no clear difference as to who is the lead and who the wingman, who should cover who and do what to avoid friendly fire or other dangerous stuff?

 

Anyway, I get your point, this is a game and all, but if we consider the fact that it's not only about simulating just planes, but also tactics and proper flying techniques - whoever shoulder shoots is basically the try-hard here. It's almost like a 20 year old discussion at this point (because I've been flying for at least that long, yeah)  that boils down to air-quake vs. pretend airforce mentality and I think nowadays it's just part of the folklore, hence why I referred to it when ranting about AI and not really being sure I dislike it, or embrace it, because it's AI bringing the online folklore to single-player. Great, isn't it? On the other hand, this is singleplayer we're talking about here, I shouldn't have to worry about my wingmen being noobs, who watched Top Gun one too many times.

 

40 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I don't understand your issue, when my AI wingmen try to shouldershoot me, they usually hit me instead of the enemy plane. So it looks to me, you are some lucky bastard

 

Exactly the reason I have mixed feelings about this, they steal my damn kills, yet they are so careful and gentle about it - not a scratch on my plane, it's almost as if it's a non-issue (asside from me not getting the bonus cash from Uncle Mustache).

[Yogiflight]

The advice I can give you is, fly Focke Wulf. In dogfights your squadmates won't be in the air long enough to be an issue. Either because they tried to turn with russian fighters and went down waving like a leaf in autumn after they lost control, or because they did, what seems to be their real skill, look for the next russian fighter and position themselves directly in front of it. Really, if we had more enemy contacts, I already would be squadron commander,..... and my only subordinate.

[BraveSirRobin]

No such thing as stealing kills.  Shoot better if you want to get kills.  

 

I'd also be interested to hear your idea of an algorithm that can tell the difference between an enemy plane that is "yours" and one that you happen to be near.  Tee hee.

[Chief_Mouser]

 

2 hours ago, Mmaruda said:

 

 

It's like, here is me, in my badass Spit, tailing a 109, I shwack him with me hispanos, next up another 109, out of cannon so I pepper the bastard with peeshooters, wing snaps off, hell yeah, third dude gets the leftovers of my bean can and bleeds brown from all holes. Zero beans and chestnuts at this point, so off to base for glory, vodka and factory girls' bath water. The commissar says I only shot down one, and guess what, it's the dude who I only damaged. Oh yeah, them shoulder-shooting wingmen got my rubbles, blin!

 

 

Sorry old bean. but I don't speak foreign lingo. How about trying it in English next time?

[Leon_Portier]

Oh yeah, I know similar stuff. It doesnt seem like the wingman are actually checking if you are in the way.

 

[danielprates]

3 hours ago, Mmaruda said:

t's like, here is me, in my badass Spit, tailing a 109, I shwack him with me hispanos, next up another 109, out of cannon so I pepper the bastard with peeshooters, wing snaps off, hell yeah, third dude gets the leftovers of my bean can and bleeds brown from all holes. Zero beans and chestnuts at this point, so off to base for glory, vodka and factory girls' bath water. The commissar says I only shot down one, and guess what, it's the dude who I only damaged. Oh yeah, them shoulder-shooting wingmen got my rubbles, blin!

 

"Slower banter, sir?!"

[Mmaruda]

1 hour ago, Red_Cat said:

 

 

I don't speak foreign lingo

Najwyższa pora się nauczyć, mordo!

[[CPT]Crunch]

You haven't played IL-2 until Microsoft Sam's AI voice sounds off on your comms channel and accuses you of cheating against them.

[Jaegermeister]

4 hours ago, Red_Cat said:

 

 

Sorry old bean. but I don't speak foreign lingo. How about trying it in English next time?

 

Thats a mix of California surfer and Pirate lingo. What’s the issue? Seems normal to me.

[MarderIV]

I get this frequently, sure. But I'm less irked about "stealing kills" in it's entirety than I am about having three quarters of my flight shoot behind me. I wouldn't mind if a squadmate takes down a plane that broke away from me or flanked it somehow, but I'd certainly mind if my whole flight dangerously flies close and behind me; firing at the target without ever acknowledging my presence in front of him. 

 

Having to break away to give the interloping AI can be frustrating. Specially when there are other targets around worthy of higher priority. 

 

Right now I feel it's really up to the player to adjust to this deficiency. Probably not the best solution, but it's the only one until this gets addressed. 

 

In any case, I've seen War Thunder players do it with alarming frequency. Seems there is no escape thus far. Think I've grown rather used to it. ?

[Yogiflight]

9 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I'd also be interested to hear your idea of an algorithm that can tell the difference between an enemy plane that is "yours" and one that you happen to be near.  Tee hee.

Should not be too hard. Program, don't shoot, when friendly are in your line of fire. 

 

1 hour ago, MarderIV said:

get this frequently, sure. But I'm less irked about "stealing kills" in it's entirety than I am about having three quarters of my flight shoot behind me. I wouldn't mind if a squadmate takes down a plane that broke away from me or flanked it somehow, but I'd certainly mind if my whole flight dangerously flies close and behind me; firing at the target without ever acknowledging my presence in front of him. 

This might have to do with the AI always trying to attack one target together. This also leeds to all enemies but one chasing you, while all your squadmates are chasing the one enemy. 

I had it, that my squadmates were heading for one enemy fighter, so I attacked another one, just to see that my squadmates let the one go, they were heading for to attack the one I was attacking.

[Elem]

I would feel assisted! I'm quite happy to damage an enemy aircraft and have someone else finish it. It's teamwork that wins wars not individuals. So long as it's one less enemy to come back the next day, it's a win.

[[PFR]Sarpalaxan]

Instead of grounding them with frowning Browning rounds in there cowling you should have Schwaked their buts with ShVAK Brrats and ShKAS Brass.

[Yogiflight]

3 hours ago, Elem said:

I would feel assisted! I'm quite happy to damage an enemy aircraft and have someone else finish it. It's teamwork that wins wars not individuals. So long as it's one less enemy to come back the next day, it's a win.

Yes, when the AI finishes the enemy plane when I turned away preparing my next attack. But not when I am behind the enemy plane and the AI shouldershoots me, because it happens, like I posted above, that he will hit me instead of the enemy.

[Elem]

9 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

that he will hit me instead of the enemy.

So have you been hit by friendly AI in this scenario?

[Yogiflight]

7 minutes ago, Elem said:

So have you been hit by friendly AI in this scenario?

Yep, two times I was shot down by a squad mate with my 110 in PWCG missions.

[SJ_Butcher]

I only feel cheated when I am killed by a magic tail gunner

[danielprates]

@Elem you're not getting it. This does happen. Yogiflight is reporting a real, relevant issue.

 

For me this is where it happens: I like to setup 4x4 or 3x3 head-ons with quick misison builder. If by the end there is only an enemy left, I have to take extra care when going for the last survivor, lest my own guys will shoot me down for sure. If the enemy is heading home or for any other reason flying straight, and I am pursuing, it is standard behavior for the wingman to pursue him too, which eventually places all of us on a straight line. Sure enough, my wingman will fire on him and hit me, without considering that I was right there on his sights.

 

This is not teamwork or whatever. Its the AI showing the need for some tweaks.

[ShamrockOneFive]

It feels just like flying online with some humans

[OrLoK]

All's fair in Love and Simming...

[BraveSirRobin]

7 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Should not be too hard. Program, don't shoot, when friendly are in your line of fire. 

 

 

That won't stop them from stealing kills.  They will still shoot past you when you're not directly in the line of fire.

 

It won't even stop them from accidentally shooting you down.  You may move into the line of fire after they shoot.  

[Yogiflight]

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

That won't stop them from stealing kills.  They will still shoot past you when you're not directly in the line of fire.

 

It won't even stop them from accidentally shooting you down.  You may move into the line of fire after they shoot.  

Depends on how you define 'line of fire'. Of course there should be a certain angle or distance to the AI's shooting, to be safe that you don't get hit, like you do it IRL, too.

But of course the main mistake is, that AI should not attack the same aircraft, that a friendly is actually attacking, but better look for other enemies. And when the attacking turns away, then he is free to do an attacking run, but not at the same time. This is how I handle this, when AI is behind an enemy.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

7 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Depends on how you define 'line of fire'.

 

 

And that’s where it goes from simple to very complicated.  Now you’ve got every AI keeping track of every friendly aircraft and constantly calculating whether each one is within a “line of fire” cone.  Presumably every enemy AI is doing the same thing.  Considering that the “line of fire” constantly changes, that’s a lot of complex calculations going on.  Or one could just set up a “line of fire” cone for each AI aircraft and only allow them to fire when no other friendlies are in that cone, but that’s probably also a lot of complex calculations.

 

 

[Soilworker]

I feel cheated when I fly a really good mission, shoot down like 3-4 bandits, am heading home and Steam VR crashes. 

 

Then when I fly the mission again it invariably goes terribly. ?

[Yogiflight]

35 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

And that’s where it goes from simple to very complicated.  Now you’ve got every AI keeping track of every friendly aircraft and constantly calculating whether each one is within a “line of fire” cone.  Presumably every enemy AI is doing the same thing.  Considering that the “line of fire” constantly changes, that’s a lot of complex calculations going on.  Or one could just set up a “line of fire” cone for each AI aircraft and only allow them to fire when no other friendlies are in that cone, but that’s probably also a lot of complex calculations.

 

 

Agreed, so lets take my second paragraph as solution

54 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

But of course the main mistake is, that AI should not attack the same aircraft, that a friendly is actually attacking, but better look for other enemies. And when the attacking turns away, then he is free to do an attacking run, but not at the same time. This is how I handle this, when AI is behind an enemy

 

[BraveSirRobin]

7 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Agreed, so lets take my second paragraph as solution

 

 

And how does one define “attacking”?  Is it someone you just shot at?  What if that was just a quick snap shot?  How long after you shoot does the AI have to wait?  

 

How does the AI even determine what you’re shooting at?  If you shoot and hit an aircraft, that’s pretty easy.  But what if you miss?  How is the AI supposed to determine what you were shooting at?

[Yogiflight]

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

And how does one define “attacking”?  Is it someone you just shot at?  What if that was just a quick snap shot?  How long after you shoot does the AI have to wait?  

 

How does the AI even determine what you’re shooting at?  If you shoot and hit an aircraft, that’s pretty easy.  But what if you miss?  How is the AI supposed to determine what you were shooting at?

It doesn't depend on the shooting. I think you will agree with me, that I won't fly behind an enemy just for fun. So if a friendly aircraft is flying behind an enemy aircraft, don't try to attack this particular enemy aircraft, but look for one, that has no friendly behind itself and attack this one or simply cover the friendly aircraft, to make sure it does not get attacked by enemy, while chasing another enemy. And to make this clear, this is also something that has happened to me, that a squadmate was shouldershooting me, turned away and an enemy fighter shot at me in the next second.

[BraveSirRobin]

2 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

It doesn't depend on the shooting. I think you will agree with me, that I won't fly behind an enemy just for fun.

 

That still leaves us with every single AI keeping track of every single friendly aircraft as well as a “no attack” zone out in front of them.  That’s a lot of calculations.  Not to mention that I might want the AI to kill someone in front of me if that aircraft just bounced me and is now extending away.

[Yogiflight]

4 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

That still leaves us with every single AI keeping track of every single friendly aircraft as well as a “no attack” zone out in front of them

No. It is looking for enemy, and then checking is there a friendly in a distance about 300m behind it. If yes,then it is no target, look for another one.

6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 Not to mention that I might want the AI to kill someone in front of me if that aircraft just bounced me and is now extending away.

If it is extending right in front of me, I don't want my squadmate to shoot at it, because he endangers me, as I am in his direct line of fire, plus I can shoot myself at the enemy. If the enemy extends by climbing away, what he will most likely do, then he is not in front of me anymore, and my squadmate can feel free to attack him.

[danielprates]

I guess that excess of calculations must be a recent problem of modern-day computers then. I don't remember being shot down by friendly fire like that ever happening in il21946, european air war, aces over whatever, 1942, secret weapons of the luftwaffe, chuck yeager's .... 

[BraveSirRobin]

2 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

No. It is looking for enemy, and then checking is there a friendly in a distance about 300m behind it. If yes,then it is no target, look for another one.

 

 

That’s basically the same thing I just said.  It requires the AI to check a “no attack” cone behind every enemy contact instead of in front of every friendly.  It’s lots of calculations.

 

5 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

 

If it is extending right in front of me, I don't want my squadmate to shoot at it, because he endangers me, as I am in his direct line of fire

 

1.  I do want him to shoot at it because he’s going to get away otherwise.

2.  I thought line of fire didn’t matter any more?  Forbidding him to shoot at things in front of me should make that irrelevant.  But if it still matters, that is more calculations.

6 minutes ago, danielprates said:

I guess that excess of calculations must be a recent problem of modern-day computers then. I don't remember being shot down by friendly fire like that ever happening in il21946, european air war, aces over whatever, 1942, secret weapons of the luftwaffe, chuck yeager's .... 

 

The AI in this game is probably more independent than in past games.  Although I seem to remember getting shot up by friendly AI in 1946.  I also remember getting almost all the kills in games like 1946 while my AI comrades did next to nothing.

 

So that might be the solution.  AI that does nothing while you get all the kills.

[RedKestrel]

8 minutes ago, danielprates said:

I guess that excess of calculations must be a recent problem of modern-day computers then. I don't remember being shot down by friendly fire like that ever happening in il21946, european air war, aces over whatever, 1942, secret weapons of the luftwaffe, chuck yeager's .... 

I've been shot up in Il-2 1946 by friendly fire, and had them collide with me. And I did have them shoulder-shoot my targets. I actually haven't been shot by my own guys in this sim, though they have shoulder-shot my targets and one time I had a collision with a friendly on climbout from the airbase.

 

[danielprates]

I too got shot a lot by friendlies in 1946. What I dont remember is being in a perfect straight alignment between a foe and a friendly and be shot as if I was invisible.

 

I'm not going to complain about collisions though. In my book that is fair game, and hard  to avoid sometimes even amongst RL humans and planes, let alone in the sim.

 

This excess of computation thing... its intuitive that it is indeed a factor. However what in the game isn't? Everything is a lot or computations. Maybe its a question of priorities. If the AI knows its way around a 3D space well enought that it can choose a target between two possible targets, aim at one of them and shoot, it could be aware that a no-go target is in the way. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by danielprates

[OrLoK]

5 minutes ago, danielprates said:

I too got shot a lot by friendlies in 1946. What I dont remember is being in a perfect straight alignment between a foe and a friendly and be shot as if I was invisible.

 

I'm not going to complain about collisions though. In my book that is fair game, and hard  to avoid sometimes even amongst RL humans and planes, let alone in the sim.

 

This excess of computation thing... its intuitive that it is indeed a factor. However what in the game isn't? Everything is a lot or computations. Maybe its a question of priorities. If the AI knows its way around a 3D space well enought that it can choose a target between two possible targets, aim at one of them and shoot, it could be aware that a no-go target is in the way. 

Ai is a very peculiar thing, it doesnt always work the way one would imagine

 

*should* and *do* are not equal