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Twist "Z rotation" problem on T.1600M... any help ?

esk_pedja

By esk_pedja
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esk_pedja

esk_pedja

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Potentiometer of T.16000M twist rudder causing spikes ?

As I said, is there some "cure" or tip to calm down my rudder on T.1600M …?  

 

Otherwise, it is great stick for me, but after some 9 months twist rudder went crazy. Now I try to survive in the sky with a noise filter 0.37.... ☹️

 

Any tip of cure to try to calm the rudder ?

Edited by esk_pedja
missing word
Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

A common issue with T.16000M, their twist axis potentiometer worm out/accumulate dirt and start send erratic voltage readings (spikes).

 

Option 1 - Open the grip, remove the potentiometer from "twist" mechanism, open pot case - caution or end destroing then, clean the resistive trail with Isopropyl Alcohol (liquid or spray), reassemble - caution with wires, or grip shelves can smash some wires. This is a palliative, soon or latter the problem return, is inherent of potentiometer.

 

Example of how is done the cleanup: https://youtu.be/UOw9Cu_-cEI?t=37

 

Option 2 - Replace the potentiometer, the model used is CTS 251B12T104A2NB, need make three solders.

 

Option 3 - Replace potentiometer with contacless sensor, e.g. Hall sensor Allegro A1324EUAT, Honeyweel SS495A1 or SCE SS49E and Neodymium mangnet ring, need make three solder (weld).

 

This "how to" explain the job well:

https://www.instructables.com/id/Logitech-3D-Extreme-Pro-Hall-Effect-Sensor-Convers/ 

other (Russian): 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2938-кобра-м5-3-й-серии-замена-резистора-твиста-на-датчик-холла/

 

Don't need 3D Printed part like the guy in Instructables, just use the original pot case as Hall support, like in this example (Cobra M5):

 

 

 


post-53199-0-17967800-1440691940.jpg
 

 

 

Is simple to install, but PITA adjust magnetic field N/S aligned with sensor.

 

BTW - Option 4 - Sell this T.16000M and buy VKB Gladiator MK.II (Vanilla), their twist axis already came with contacless sensor (VKB MaRS), or consider buy a rudder pedals, best cost/benefit is VKB T-Rudder (~$220), perfect for IL-2GB, since all planes of game can use "differential brakes". ;)

Edited by Sokol1
Warpig

Warpig

Posted
Posted

Use the opportunity to get some rudder pedals. Your life will be changed forever. ?

  • Upvote 1
Raptorattacker

Raptorattacker

Posted
Posted

@Sokol1 That my friend is the solution I've been waiting for throughout FOUR T.16000M's, all sent back and replaced by good ol' Amazon with exactly this problem. The pots used are, as you say, inherently crap!. I think that a contactless is the way to go and being as I have a spare (knackered) stick I shall try this/these solution(s). 

Thanks for this info! This Forum never ceases to make me smile!!!

Rap

ps I would've left you a 'like' but I've run out of today's!! ;):salute::good:

esk_pedja

esk_pedja

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Thanks guys,

 

but for ~$220 for rudders I can order 3 new joysticks, one by one...

 

I "switched of" rudder from joystick - to z/x buttons, but no luck... both buttons turn to the right ?!?

( D key return back the rudder ) 

 

If I find some joystick-guru, I might replace the potentiometer... with some Sokol1 proposals. I am afraid to do it by myself with my modest servicing skill.

I do not know even how to open the stick without causing some trouble. ( Hey Falcon1 one, what do you mean by "make three solders" ? )

 

Regarding VKB Gladiator , it seems too soft for WW2 feeling : 

 

 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhlZHE4ZY-I )

 

 

 

 

 

WallysWorld

WallysWorld

Posted
Posted

I was going to buy a T.16000M, but after reading about the twist issues that some people have, I decided on the VKB Gladiator Mk.II. I really like the Gladiator and have no regrets buying it. For myself, it's great for IL2, Strike Fighters and Rise of Flight so far.

esk_pedja

esk_pedja

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Is it too soft in axes for WW2 feeling ?

How long do you use it ?

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

IMHO - The soft springs in Gladiator Mk. II gimbal make more easy to aim in WWII planes.

 

Quote

( Hey Falcon1 one, what do you mean by "make three solders" ? )

 

This: :)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VjMAG_c_KU

 

What is simple,  but needs to be done quickly for avoid overheat the potentiomer, what can damage their resistive trail.

 

WallysWorld

WallysWorld

Posted
Posted

I've had the Gladiator Mk. II for about 1.5 months now and for myself it's the best flight stick I've had. It does make aiming easier in Il2.

 

I used to use a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and I thought that was very good, but after a while the Z axis would get very twitchy.

 

But obviously I am not a hardcore flight stick person like many others here.

esk_pedja

esk_pedja

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Any world wide seller for Hall sensor Allegro A1324EUAT ?

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

1324EUAT was generally advised for DIY due their high sensitivity: 5.0mV/G,  what theoretically make more easy "tune" the magnet center position relative to sensor.

 

As comparison Allegro 1302 (available in Leo Bodnar page) is 1,3mV/G, thus being more trick to center but work OK and several people use.

If I remember correct I have used this for brakes in CH PRO pedal.

 

But 1324EUAT is not listed in Digikey, Mouser anymore, probable was discontinued.

 

1324LUAT, sensitivity 2,5mV/G or SS495A1 sensitivity 3,125mV/G (this cost $1) both available in eBay.

SS495A1 is commonly used by DIY Russian guys, the guys that more do joystick "mod".

 

Have in mind that install a Hall sensor + magnet is not "pnp" like solder a potentiometer and go calibrate, will take time and patience "tune" match their positions, because if you breath during the process... the sensor detect. :biggrin: 

Edited by Sokol1
356thFS_Melonfish

356thFS_Melonfish

Posted
Posted
18 hours ago, WallysWorld said:

I've had the Gladiator Mk. II for about 1.5 months now and for myself it's the best flight stick I've had. It does make aiming easier in Il2.

 

I used to use a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and I thought that was very good, but after a while the Z axis would get very twitchy.

 

But obviously I am not a hardcore flight stick person like many others here.

I'm genuinely considering switching though i'm a little iffy about losing all my lovely buttons from my t.16000m

 

esk_pedja

esk_pedja

Posted
  • Author
Posted
30 minutes ago, Melonfish said:

I'm genuinely considering switching though i'm a little iffy about losing all my lovely buttons from my t.16000m

 

How long did you use it ?

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, esk_pedja said:

you mean these ?

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=1324LUAT&_sacat=0

 

Yes, 1324LLHLT is 5.0mV/G but is in SOT (SMD) format, awkward for DIY.

 

 

3 hours ago, Melonfish said:

I'm genuinely considering switching though i'm a little iffy about losing all my lovely buttons from my t.16000m

 

In practice Gladiator Mk.II (Vanilla) has more buttons than T.16000M,  8 on grip (2 physical + 6 virtual under pinky button) + 14 on base, not considering mode 2. T.16000M is 4 + 12.

 

 

Edited by Sokol1
esk_pedja

esk_pedja

Posted
  • Author
Posted

As I can hardly find a servicing guru with a passion for flight experiments and calibration, I am closer and closer to ordering 2 x spare vanilla  CTS 251B12T104A2NB, ...service guys have only patience to disassemble the stick and make three solders to replace potentiometer in existing frames.

☹️ ( if that is the cause of problem... )

WallysWorld

WallysWorld

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

In practice Gladiator Mk.II (Vanilla) has more buttons than T.16000M,  8 on grip (2 physical + 6 virtual under pinky button) + 14 on base, not considering mode 2. T.16000M is 4 + 12.

 

 

Yes, the pinky button is a bit awkward at first to use, but you get used to it pretty quick. It's great to use to switch between weapons.

 

I paired my Gladiator Mk.II with a poor man's Flashfire Cobra Accelerator throttle and both work well together. I bought a cheap throttle just to try one out as I've never had a separate throttle device before.

 

About the T.1600M, the one thing that worried me other then the Z axis issues that sometimes arise are the buttons on the right side of the stick. I am right handed so I figured those buttons would be hard for me to access.

Edited by WallysWorld
356thFS_Melonfish

356thFS_Melonfish

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, WallysWorld said:

Yes, the pinky button is a bit awkward at first to use, but you get used to it pretty quick. It's great to use to switch between weapons.

 

I paired my Gladiator Mk.II with a poor man's Flashfire Cobra Accelerator throttle and both work well together. I bought a cheap throttle just to try one out as I've never had a separate throttle device before.

 

About the T.1600M, the one thing that worried me other then the Z axis issues that sometimes arise are the buttons on the right side of the stick. I am right handed so I figured those buttons would be hard for me to access.

Now that is something I do find an issue, the buttons on the right hand side of the stick are rarely used by me, they're just awkward to reach whilst flying.

 

 

14 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

In practice Gladiator Mk.II (Vanilla) has more buttons than T.16000M,  8 on grip (2 physical + 6 virtual under pinky button) + 14 on base, not considering mode 2. T.16000M is 4 + 12.

This I did not know, i suppose i can have a good look at it again, I am keen to get the benefits of the stick movement over anything else.
I take it you Have to use the software to get the benefits of the shift functions?

is it difficult to setup or pretty easy?

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Melonfish said:

I take it you Have to use the software to get the benefits of the shift functions?

 

No, the "shift" is done in Gladiator firmware.

In Mode 1 (default):

 

Trigger is button #14, plus "pinky" (shift) pressed is #15

Top button is button # 18, plus "pinky" pressed is #19 

 

POV HAT plus "pinky" is button #22, 23, 24, 25, without "pinky" is POV HAT

 

In Mode 2

 

Trigger is button #16, plus "pinky" pressed is #17

Top button is button # 20, plus "pinky"  pressed is #21 

 

POV HAT plus "pinky" is button # 26,27, 28, 29, without "pinky" is POV HAT

 

Example of use (Mode 1 Red LED).

 

Trigger = machine guns

Top button = cannons

Press simultaneous for fire all weapons

 

Trigger + "pinky" = rockets

Top button + "pinky" = bombs (no more accidental bombs drop). :good:

 

POV HAT + "pinky" = trim pitch and yaw.

 

In Mode 2 (Green LED) trigger can be used for wheel brakes (that + rudder movement work for any plane of IL-2:GB) and top button for something... or, weapons don't fire on ground.

 

BTW - Mode button is monitored by Green and Red LED and press button #30 when change mode, so can be used for:

 

Button # 30 = landing gear: Green LED (mode 2) on Ground, Red LED (Mode 1) on air, just remember to set Mode 2 (green LED) before start missions on ground.. ;)

 

LOL - All this with just 2 buttons +HAT. ? 

Edited by Sokol1
  • Thanks 1
356thFS_Melonfish

356thFS_Melonfish

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

 

No, the "shift" is done in Gladiator firmware.

In Mode 1 (default):

 

Trigger is button #14, plus "pinky" (shift) pressed is #15

Top button is button # 18, plus "pinky" pressed is #19 

 

POV HAT plus "pinky" is button #22, 23, 24, 25, without "pinky" is POV HAT

 

In Mode 2

 

Trigger is button #16, plus "pinky" pressed is #17

Top button is button # 20, plus "pinky"  pressed is #21 

 

POV HAT plus "pinky" is button # 26,27, 28, 29, without "pinky" is POV HAT

 

Example of use (Mode 1 Red LED).

 

Trigger = machine guns

Top button = cannons

Press simultaneous for fire all weapons

 

Trigger + "pinky" = rockets

Top button + "pinky" = bombs (no more accidental bombs drop). :good:

 

POV HAT + "pinky" = trim pitch and yaw.

 

In Mode 2 (Green LED) trigger can be used for wheel brakes (that + rudder movement work for any plane of IL-2:GB) and top button for something... or, weapons don't fire on ground.

 

BTW - Mode button is monitored by Green and Red LED and press button #30 when change mode, so can be used for:

 

Button # 30 = landing gear: Green LED (mode 2) on Ground, Red LED (Mode 1) on air, just remember to set Mode 2 (green LED) before start missions on ground.. ;)

 

LOL - All this with just 2 buttons +HAT. ? 

 

Well i'm sold! thank you

 

esk_pedja

esk_pedja

Posted
  • Author
Posted

There is very simple fix ( probably temporary ) but it fixed my rudder problem !

( I googled a bit, it is not my discovery...)

 

For the right handed:

First remove the rubber on the right side and remove the screw .

Then lift the rubber on the left side (thumb). It gives access to a black screw. Unscrew this screw slightly to release the pressure on the handle. The problem of the z axis disappeared after that.

At the end, give it some noise filter ( 0.35 or more ).

It seems that releasing the pressure on pot frame could be the way to go.

 

  • Like 1
  • 1 year later...
III/JG52_Otto_-I-

III/JG52_Otto_-I-

Posted
Posted
On 8/28/2019 at 4:24 PM, esk_pedja said:

 

Potentiometer of T.16000M twist rudder causing spikes ?

As I said, is there some "cure" or tip to calm down my rudder on T.1600M …?  

 

Otherwise, it is great stick for me, but after some 9 months twist rudder went crazy. Now I try to survive in the sky with a noise filter 0.37.... ☹️

 

Any tip of cure to try to calm the rudder ?

* 1 here ,..i´m start thinking that TrushMaster have lower quality than Saitek/Logitech. :rolleyes:

esk_pedja

esk_pedja

Posted
  • Author
Posted

It is certainly not lower quality than Logitech ( In a mid class ),

When it comes to T.1600M, I am astonished that such a gorgeous piece of mid class sticks, is released with so "consumable" rudder.

( Also trigger is not the most durable piece of hardware... )

 

But it is not expensive, on the other side...

 

Right remedy is:

 https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/vkb-sim-t-rudder-pedals-mk-iv-2/

 

But you can easily buy 2 x new  T.1600M for that money...

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

What the guy show in this video, explain why a normal  - 270-300º of "effective electric angle",  potentiometer can't be used as replacement in "joysticks" (pedal), due the low angular movement of these,  and how use instead a ~$1 Hall sensor, plus Neodimium magnet.

 

 

Edited by Sokol1
Cynic_Al

Cynic_Al

Posted
Posted
On 10/23/2020 at 9:20 PM, esk_pedja said:

 

Right remedy is:

 https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/vkb-sim-t-rudder-pedals-mk-iv-2/

 

But you can easily buy 2 x new  T.1600M for that money...

 

 

If you think that's a strategy, fine, but there's just one small point to consider:  Your fully-working twistgrip has a deadzone at the centre position,  occupying approximately 11% of the total movement.  No software can remove this deadzone.  To be specific,  I refer to tests I made on my example labelled underneath T16000M V.1.  Unless this has been changed on later models,  it means that there is no hope of making precision rudder movements around the centre position.  I would liken it to hovering your feet over the rudder pedals and jabbing at them in the hope of making a small precise correction.  Once you know that,  you can't un-know it.

  • Upvote 1
III/JG52_Otto_-I-

III/JG52_Otto_-I-

Posted
Posted
On 10/24/2020 at 5:43 AM, Sokol1 said:

What the guy show in this video, explain why a normal  - 270-300º of "effective electric angle",  potentiometer can't be used as replacement in "joysticks" (pedal), due the low angular movement of these,  and how use instead a ~$1 Hall sensor, plus Neodimium magnet.

Unfortunately my wife will not let me to bring that "ugly things" in home. :lol:

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