What is a good flight trainer plane ?

[pa4tim]

What is the best "avarage behaving" plane to learn the basics of flying the right way ?  If I understand well in real life people started flying in some kind of trainer plane and not the first lesson in something like a P51

 

The problem in a sim is that I need to figure things out myself, there is no instructor next to me telling me what I do wrong (and demonstrate it a few times like I see on youtube in real planes ). So if I can fly plane 1 "good" but crash every time in plane 2.  I then do not know if it is me or the plane. I can do it very wrong but still good enough for plane 1. I then think plane 2 is a bad plane while it is me doing it wrong but by accident just right enough for plane 1. I can do it good or wrong and if good I can do it to much or to little. This way I can learn things the wrong way. For me it is relative easy to learn things (good or bad)  but very hard to get wrong learned things out of my system. 

 

Because I can not fly good yet, I can not try planes myself to find the right one. I did that and ended with the spitfire and a totally wrong turn coordination technique.  
 

 

 

 

[Flashy]

Suppose it depends on whether you mean combat flying (gunnery, manoeuvres, tactics etc) or just learning to fly the airplane. For basic flying,  the U-2 and Requiems basic flight training video lessons are probably the best way to learn IMO. The U-2 was originally designed as a trainer and is easy to fly, very forgiving and slow so you have plenty of time to think about what you are doing and fix mistakes before they become fatal. You also dont have to worry about complicated things like variable-pitch props, retractable landing gear and flaps, and you can just concentrate on the flying. You can practice takeoffs, circuits and getting your landings perfect (perfect approach speeds and 3 pointers every time) pretty easily with this plane. Once you have that down pat, then something like the Yak 1 ser 69 is probably a good next step up because its also pretty easy to fly and handle on the ground, but has most of the bells and whistles of the other "modern" fighters (like full engine and prop management, retractable landing gear, flaps, etc) while still being pretty fast and a good gunnery platform.

 

But keep in mind that all the planes are pretty different from each other, so just because you are good at one plane it doesnt mean you can just jump right into another without learning it first (this is where Requiems familirisation videos really help). I think the best thing is to learn to fly in the U-2 first until you have the basics of flight down, then choose a plane you like and keep practicing with it (along with Requiems videos to make sure you arent picking up bad habits) until you are good at it. And yes, the Spitfire probably wasnt the best choice to start - its well know that its a total b**ch on the ground and definitely not easy to take off or land. 

[CountZero]

in real they crash airplane and its done so you start with instructor and on easy airplane, in game you can crash it as many times and learn from it so you can start with what ever, so i dont see point of having trainer airplane if devs will at same time not gona make effort to make trainer missions for it, so your left with videos on youtube for it.

so then its hard for new player to see whats going wrong, you can see videos and think your ding it same as guy on video, but usealy its not same, and not having someone watching you and correcting you in flight (AI or human) is missing.

so then best option is fined someone who can go online with you, and get on ts3, and be in other airplane next to you or using ouside view looking at your airplane in speculator option and see whats the problem, and for that you would have to fined someone who will be able to teach good and spend his time to train players, and thats hard to fined without joining some squads and geting lucky with ppl there.

so in the end its up to you alone to try and fail untill you fuiger it out.

109f4, 109g2 or yak1, lagg3 is good start, just flying, landing or take off and fighting is good in thouse airplanes

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[RedKestrel]

2 hours ago, pa4tim said:

What is the best "avarage behaving" plane to learn the basics of flying the right way ?  If I understand well in real life people started flying in some kind of trainer plane and not the first lesson in something like a P51

 

The problem in a sim is that I need to figure things out myself, there is no instructor next to me telling me what I do wrong (and demonstrate it a few times like I see on youtube in real planes ). So if I can fly plane 1 "good" but crash every time in plane 2.  I then do not know if it is me or the plane. I can do it very wrong but still good enough for plane 1. I then think plane 2 is a bad plane while it is me doing it wrong but by accident just right enough for plane 1. I can do it good or wrong and if good I can do it to much or to little. This way I can learn things the wrong way. For me it is relative easy to learn things (good or bad)  but very hard to get wrong learned things out of my system. 

 

Because I can not fly good yet, I can not try planes myself to find the right one. I did that and ended with the spitfire and a totally wrong turn coordination technique.  
 

 

 

 

As far as beginner planes , a lot depends on what planes you have. Battle of Stalingrad then the Yak-1 and the 109F4 are both good aircraft with good performance and fairly conventional handling characteristics. If you have Battle of Bodenplatte (as you indicate with the Spitfire) then the 109G-14 or the Spitfire are probably your best bet. But at the end of the day, every aircraft is very different and you need  to familiarize yourself with each plane.  As you noted , you may be good with plane 1 and bad with plane 2. What is a costly mistake in Plane 2 may be perfectly acceptable in Plane 1. If you try and land a MiG in the same way you land a Yak you will probably have problems - even more so if you try and fight with them the same way. These are high performance aircraft and the modeling in the sim is good enough that they each fly dramatically differently.

I have a familiarization routine with each new plane I fly. As you learn more planes you will find this process goes quicker.

Your first stop has to be at the technical specs in game or on the forum. Familiarize yourself with top speed, best climb, landing speed, when or if you have to swap the supercharger, what is automated and what is manual, and if it has a lockable tailwheel etc. Make notes to yourself if you have trouble remembering (I have a little mini 'pilots notes' booklet under my keyboard with the bare essentials for most planes in the game). Usually after this I'll watch Requiem's videos on How to Fly that particular plane. Every video follows a consistent format so they're easy to follow and it highlights the differences between aircraft really easily. 

Next step is to start with the plane on the taxiway in a quick mission. Start the engine, and taxi to the runway. Note how the taxiing behaviour works for the plane, especially with a locked or unlocked tailwheel. Learn how the braking works, either with differential braking or toe brakes. You can very easily ground-loop some aircraft in this sim so be gentle on the throttle and the rudder. Make sure you can weave confidently back and forth to watch where you're going. Line yourself up on the runway, smoothly increase power, and take off. Pay close attention to the way the nose goes, whether the torque effect is stronger or weaker. Get airborne, raise the gear, raise the flaps, and gain some altitude. Then turn into  the 'circuit', circling the airfield to prepare for a landing. Follow Requiem's tutorials for setting up for the landing, then land the plane, paying close attention to any quirks (yaw, tendency to lose altitude quickly below a certain speed, sluggish controls or bad control authority). Then get yourself set up on the runway again, and take off again. Takeoff and land normally a few times, then maybe try landing without flaps to get a feel for when the aircraft starts to 'mush'. Make straight appraoch landings and curved approach landings to see which one works better for you in that plane. If you get good enough, start doing touch and go landings where you touch down and then throttle up and take off again without stopping. Getting comfortable with takeoff and landing will teach you a lot about how the plane responds to changes in power and attitude, low speed handling, and precise control of speed and descent. My landings have gotten very shoddy lately so I'm due for more of this practice.

Once you're comfortable taking off and landing, take your plane up to about 6000 -10000 feet depending on your aircraft's best altitude , get your speed up to what you expect to be running in combat, and start doing some turns. Watch the ball and see how much rudder you need to coordinate the turn - for example the Spitfire rather famously requires very little or almost no rudder, the P-47 requires a lot of rudder and you have to be precise about it. Get a feel for how hard you can push the plane before it starts to stall, and try and ride the stall by kicking the rudder when a wing starts to dip to see how long you can take it. Watch how it responds immediately to the turn (instantaneous turn ability) and how it responds to a long, circling turn (continuous turning ability). Many planes are great at one but suck at the other - the MiG-3 and La-5, for example, both have good instantaneous turn but in a long turn fight they get sluggish. Try a few loops and immelmanns (upside down loops) to get a sense of how the plane zooms and dives. Once you have a feel for the plane, you can start doing barrel rolls, outside rolls, and other aerobatics to get a sense for the roll rate. Really pay attention to how the controls react at different speeds - every plane has a 'sweet spot' speed where its handling is the best, and they're all different. Knowing where that sweet spot is tells you a lot about how you have to engage the enemy in that aircraft. Set yourself up in some high speed dives to practice recovery and pay attention where the controls start to lock up and see how much altitude you lose to get to that point. This helps you learn to avoid diving to attack and finding you can't get your gunsight on the enemy because your controls are too stiff. 

This whole process for me takes a couple hours and I when I start to get sloppy in the aircraft I go up and do it again. I'm due to do this in Russian fighters especially as I was flying a lot of the P-47 for a while and it is the complete opposite in terms of design and fighting philosophy from the Soviet fighters. 

This might seem boring or tedious, especially if you don't have much time to play. But the feel of flight in this sim is very good so actually just flying the planes around can be a joy if you just put yourself in the right mindset.

If you are just starting out, IMO you should stick to a single aircraft for a couple weeks before branching out to other planes. 

 

[pa4tim]

1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

in game you can crash it as many times and learn from it so you can start with what ever,

This way I learned myself to fly permanent un-coordinated and give full opposite rudder almost permanent until the plane could do nothing other as drop a wing and go uncontrolled in to the deck. While I was thinking I did fly coordinated. A few planes including the Spitfire let me do that the best (without constantly crashing after a power stall) So this is not the best way for me. 

 

32 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

If you try and land a MiG in the same way you land a Yak you will probably have problems - even more so if you try and fight with them the same way. These are high performance aircraft and the modeling in the sim is good enough that they each fly dramatically differently.

This is why I want to stick a while to one plane. And that plane must be allround enough so the basics I need there are usable in most planes so I then can learn how to operate them the right way. And I can not judge that because I now can fly pretty well with the Spitfire doing it in a way I do not need enemies to crash  just doing the same things in the P47.

 

I must say I like more and more how the P39 handels. It needs me to do it right but it is still a little bit forgiving. I think, because in this plane I found out I did the coordinated thing completely wrong.  But I am afraid this is one of those planes that learns me things you better do not want to use in most planes.

 

Combat wise I do best in the Spitfire, the Bf110 and the Bf109F4. Ground targets, at this time best, in the P39 and Bf110 (I am most interested in ground-fighting but not in bombing)

 

41 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I have a little mini 'pilots notes' booklet under my keyboard with the bare essentials for most planes in the game). Usually after this I'll watch Requiem's videos on How to Fly that particular plane. Every video follows a consistent format so they're easy to follow and it highlights the differences between aircraft really easily. 

 

I do that too, I have a little notebook and made a stand for it on my "cockpit"  I also look to his videos but also look up things in wikis and watch things like official army instruction videos

45 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Get airborne, raise the gear, raise the flaps, and gain some altitude. Then turn into  the 'circuit', circling the airfield to prepare for a landing. Follow Requiem's tutorials for setting up for the landing, then land the plane, paying close attention to any quirks

This is what I am practicing now a lot. The biggest problem is to get at the right place, height and speed. If I see and recognize the runway on time and can approach in a straight line I can do a decent landing in the P49, most FC planes, the JU52, JU87 and the P47. In the spit and BF109, FW190 I most times kill my prop.  If I try the circuit requiem shows I crash a lot because I come in to high, or to low, to fast or to slow etc. That is, if I can find the runway... 

 

Thanks for the tips about landing/taking off and learning to fly a new plane, I will try that

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

Many planes are great at one but suck at the other - the MiG-3 and La-5, for example, both have good instantaneous turn but in a long turn fight they get sluggish.

Pfff, so it is not completely

me. There are planes that let me make nice turns until I fly a long turn to approach the runway and suddenly I more or less fall on the deck and I had no clue why. 

 

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

as I was flying a lot of the P-47 for a while and it is the complete opposite in terms of design and fighting philosophy from the Soviet fighters. 

And that is why I asked advise. 

 

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

This might seem boring or tedious, especially if you don't have much time to play.

No, the opposite, I like doing that. I like flying on its own a lot. I think I fly more  as that I fight. I prefer a mission to have a goal and do something "useful" but I like it most to fly under hard conditions (I do not mind if that is without even a fight). Strong wind, bad visibility, turbulence, darkness, snow blizzard etc.  I was before IL-2 only interested in tank simulation and then discovered by accident I like flight sim even more. (but I always had a soft-spot for warplanes, builded a lot of kits as a kid and did some RC flying)

 

I only use manual engine control, I have no problems doing that. And I like using the cockpit instruments.

 

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

If you are just starting out, IMO you should stick to a single aircraft for a couple weeks before branching out to other planes. 

That is indeed why I want advise about what plane.

 

Is the P39 a good choice ? I like the spit but I think it will be better to fly that if I am a bit better. It is a bit to forgiving.

 

3 hours ago, Flashy said:

Suppose it depends on whether you mean combat flying (gunnery, manoeuvres, tactics etc) or just learning to fly the airplane. For basic flying,  the U-2 and Requiems basic flight training video lessons are probably the best way to learn IMO.

 For most learning to fly the correct way and make it as perfect as possible. 

I have the FC planes, is the U2 comparable ? I also have the JU52 (but that needs totally different controls for taking off and has a different way of using the flaps-stabiliser combo) 

[Flashy]

12 minutes ago, pa4tim said:

 

 For most learning to fly the correct way and make it as perfect as possible. 

I have the FC planes, is the U2 comparable ? I also have the JU52 (but that needs totally different controls for taking off and has a different way of using the flaps-stabiliser combo) 

 

It is quite comparable to them, yes. Although I would say its a bit easier to fly than them. Its like a WW1 plane with no vices. But you might outgrow it quickly and, even though it can be good fun in multiplayer, its quite limited in its scope and SP options. I think its good for learning the basics and getting your confidence up (I tend to want to rage-quit after I have ground looped or crashed one of the other planes 10 times in a row!) but its a very basic plane to be sure. 

 

It sounds to me though that you are having issues with the basics (navigating, finding the runway, approach angle and speed, maintaining air speed during a turn etc) so maybe it could be a good option to learn those things. Do you find flying the WW1 types easier in this regard?

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Flashy

[pa4tim]

54 minutes ago, Flashy said:

It sounds to me though that you are having issues with the basics (navigating, finding the runway, approach angle and speed, maintaining air speed during a turn etc) so maybe it could be a good option to learn those things. Do you find flying the WW1 types easier in this regard?

 

Yes, that kind of basics too, but that is something I am working on and I need to do that on my own. It is already improving. If I can fly better I have more time to look around while keeping the right direction etc. I am just new to sims (and also not a gamer so not much joystick/keyboard experience in general) 

 

It is not that I have a huge problem with flying, I can land and take off just enough in some planes to do career and missions, often kill a number AI, even do some basic airobatics. (in the spitfire)  I just like to do things as good as possible. And for that the basis must be perfect (but that is my opinion and goes for everything I do. I want to know how things works so I know why I need to do things and to check if I do things wrong., from there I try to find out how to do it right.

But in this case it is helpful to have the best tool = plane for that. And with a sound basis it is probably also more easy to learn to operate the more difficult ones. 

 

I have no problems doing something a lot of times until I master it. 

I find the WW1 birds a lot more easy to fly. The only harder thing is to not make a donut while landing but it is already improving. They are so nice to look at while flying, they are beautiful big butterflies

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, pa4tim said:

This way I learned myself to fly permanent un-coordinated and give full opposite rudder almost permanent until the plane could do nothing other as drop a wing and go uncontrolled in to the deck. While I was thinking I did fly coordinated. A few planes including the Spitfire let me do that the best (without constantly crashing after a power stall) So this is not the best way for me. 

 

This is why I want to stick a while to one plane. And that plane must be allround enough so the basics I need there are usable in most planes so I then can learn how to operate them the right way. And I can not judge that because I now can fly pretty well with the Spitfire doing it in a way I do not need enemies to crash  just doing the same things in the P47.

 

I must say I like more and more how the P39 handels. It needs me to do it right but it is still a little bit forgiving. I think, because in this plane I found out I did the coordinated thing completely wrong.  But I am afraid this is one of those planes that learns me things you better do not want to use in most planes.

 

Combat wise I do best in the Spitfire, the Bf110 and the Bf109F4. Ground targets, at this time best, in the P39 and Bf110 (I am most interested in ground-fighting but not in bombing)

 

 

I do that too, I have a little notebook and made a stand for it on my "cockpit"  I also look to his videos but also look up things in wikis and watch things like official army instruction videos

This is what I am practicing now a lot. The biggest problem is to get at the right place, height and speed. If I see and recognize the runway on time and can approach in a straight line I can do a decent landing in the P49, most FC planes, the JU52, JU87 and the P47. In the spit and BF109, FW190 I most times kill my prop.  If I try the circuit requiem shows I crash a lot because I come in to high, or to low, to fast or to slow etc. That is, if I can find the runway... 

 

Thanks for the tips about landing/taking off and learning to fly a new plane, I will try that

Pfff, so it is not completely

me. There are planes that let me make nice turns until I fly a long turn to approach the runway and suddenly I more or less fall on the deck and I had no clue why. 

 

And that is why I asked advise. 

 

No, the opposite, I like doing that. I like flying on its own a lot. I think I fly more  as that I fight. I prefer a mission to have a goal and do something "useful" but I like it most to fly under hard conditions (I do not mind if that is without even a fight). Strong wind, bad visibility, turbulence, darkness, snow blizzard etc.  I was before IL-2 only interested in tank simulation and then discovered by accident I like flight sim even more. (but I always had a soft-spot for warplanes, builded a lot of kits as a kid and did some RC flying)

 

I only use manual engine control, I have no problems doing that. And I like using the cockpit instruments.

 

That is indeed why I want advise about what plane.

 

Is the P39 a good choice ? I like the spit but I think it will be better to fly that if I am a bit better. It is a bit to forgiving.

 

 For most learning to fly the correct way and make it as perfect as possible. 

I have the FC planes, is the U2 comparable ? I also have the JU52 (but that needs totally different controls for taking off and has a different way of using the flaps-stabiliser combo) 

I, too, enjoy the P-39 (we are a rare breed, most people don't seem to like it much). I wouldn't call it forgiving, however, as it has a VERY nasty stall and spin characteristic, and its possible to put it into an unrecoverable spin because of the rearward centre of gravity. It also has an engine that is very sensitive to sudden changes in throttle - the long crankshaft is very sensitive to sudden increases in torque.

My tendency when landing is to come in too high and then drop too fast and then bounce down the runway. If you are hitting your prop you are probably either not flaring enough before touchdown or putting on the brakes too much too early. Before take off, try and memorize the site picture and the location of the horizon in relation to the cockpit and canopy - that is what you want things to look like as you end your flare above the runway. Let your plane slow down a little before applying brakes. Luckily, brakes in Il-2 are generally less likely to nose you over than in real life.

Requiem's video on diagnosing landing problems (#8 in the Flight Principles Playlist) can be very helpful here - he does it in the DCS P-51 but the lessons are universally applicable. 

Most planes will warn you when they are about to stall - some are very obvious, others less so. The worst offender in the sim IMO is the I-16, which is extremely unstable and will drop a wing and spin in an instant if you pull too hard, a nasty surprise during low-level dogfights. But almost all other planes will shake and buffet (visible and audible) well before stall, so when your plane starts doing that ease back on the turn and maybe add power to gain airspeed. Keep in mind too, that you will stall more quickly when you are uncoordinated. This is why the familiarization flights at higher altitudes are so helpful, you can push the aircraft to its limits and not worry about crashing when the stall comes.

The Spitfire is a handful on the ground but in the air is very forgiving and responsive, with great climb, good speed and turning ability. The only issue with using it as a beginner plane is that it spoils you in terms of handling performance for most planes later on - going to the P-47 after the Spit is like going from driving a civic to a minivan. But that is not an issue as long as you are aware of it.

Honestly, it sounds like you are off to a good start. Just keep practicing until it becomes second nature, and branch out to other planes when you feel ready. Nothing wrong with the spitfire as your go-to ride.

[356thFS_Melonfish]

Load up the 109 F or G series.

it's squirrely on the ground and pulls left like a beast but the differential brakes are greate and once you get em in the air they respond beautifully, you don't have to worry about radiators, mix or prop pitch*

*the E7 does require manual radiator control but automatically adjusts mixture and pitch.

it's a basic staple and will get you flying, the russian planes generally require Mix, RPM and radiators to be managed and their ground handling is not easy if you're not used to a single brake lever and directional brakes with the rudder.

 

 

 

[pa4tim]

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

The worst offender in the sim IMO is the I-16

My only favorite Russian plane ( I am not kidding, I love that little ratata) But somehow I do not fly it a lot. 

 

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

I, too, enjoy the P-39 (we are a rare breed, most people don't seem to like it much). I wouldn't call it forgiving, however, as it has a VERY nasty stall and spin characteristic, and its possible to put it into an unrecoverable spin because of the rearward centre of gravity. It also has an engine that is very sensitive to sudden changes in throttle - the long crankshaft is very sensitive to sudden increases in torque.

 

It can be very nasty indeed. The reason is a career I did. I only flew Germans before the Spit (no career for that yet) So I wanted to do a Russian one and choose the P39, mainly because it looks so nice. That went very well but in QB it turned out to be a disaster. That made me analyse things and so I found out the problem regarding coordination. If I do things very careful right it is a totally different plane but indeed, if I push it to much it will be nasty.  About the engine, I have blew it up a few times while taking off. The nice thing is that you can hear very nice if the engine is not so happy. 

The P39 can spin deadly but from an USAF video about this plane I learned how to cope with that.  I close throttle and RPM, give aileron in the direction of the spin. After 2 or 3 turns it stabilizes. Then I pull up very gentle and turn up throttle/RPM. If I wait to long it is indeed unrecoverable. 

 

But it is also very responsive, climbs like a beast, has a decent speed and I love the firepower. 

 

But I am in doubt because in some occasions It seems to be coordinated in right turns on its own while in other situations not , and I even have seen the ball going to the left but if I then step on the ball it immediate goes wrong. Also I thing I have not worked out yet is why some planes do not shift their nose the opposite way, as far as I know that is the main reason to fly coordinated. For instance in ROF most planes show this but in FC the same planes do not show this behaviour. (I think I watch to much how real planes work ? )

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

Honestly, it sounds like you are off to a good start. Just keep practicing until it becomes second nature, and branch out to other planes when you feel ready. Nothing wrong with the spitfire as your go-to ride.

Thank you, this is also thanks to the very friendly and helpful community

33 minutes ago, Melonfish said:

Load up the 109 F or G series.

it's squirrely on the ground and pulls left like a beast but the differential brakes are greate and once you get em in the air they respond beautifully, you don't have to worry about radiators, mix or prop pitch*

*the E7 does require manual radiator control but automatically adjusts mixture and pitch.

it's a basic staple and will get you flying, the russian planes generally require Mix, RPM and radiators to be managed and their ground handling is not easy if you're not used to a single brake lever and directional brakes with the rudder.

 

 

 

I have no problems using manual engine controls, I never use the automodes. I prefer manual control.  If it can be done manual I will do it manual.  If it was possible I would do the whole starting procedure step after step (like in DCS)
You are right about the 109 F, that is a nice plane to fight in but I do not like it has alles automated. 

I have no troubles taking off in any plane but I need more practice in taxi (to bad a plane has no reverse gear...) I know about the braking, I am making a manual/tutorial about controls. I also wrote some about the differential braking. It is the tutorial part of the forum. I have done the engine management, pilot head and camera control section already. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by pa4tim

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, pa4tim said:

My only favorite Russian plane ( I am not kidding, I love that little ratata) But somehow I do not fly it a lot. 

 

 

It can be very nasty indeed. The reason is a career I did. I only flew Germans before the Spit (no career for that yet) So I wanted to do a Russian one and choose the P39, mainly because it looks so nice. That went very well but in QB it turned out to be a disaster. That made me analyse things and so I found out the problem regarding coordination. If I do things very careful right it is a totally different plane but indeed, if I push it to much it will be nasty.  About the engine, I have blew it up a few times while taking off. The nice thing is that you can hear very nice if the engine is not so happy. 

The P39 can spin deadly but from an USAF video about this plane I learned how to cope with that.  I close throttle and RPM, give aileron in the direction of the spin. After 2 or 3 turns it stabilizes. Then I pull up very gentle and turn up throttle/RPM. If I wait to long it is indeed unrecoverable. 

 

But it is also very responsive, climbs like a beast, has a decent speed and I love the firepower. 

 

But I am in doubt because in some occasions It seems to be coordinated in right turns on its own while in other situations not , and I even have seen the ball going to the left but if I then step on the ball it immediate goes wrong. Also I thing I have not worked out yet is why some planes do not shift their nose the opposite way, as far as I know that is the main reason to fly coordinated. For instance in ROF most planes show this but in FC the same planes do not show this behaviour. (I think I watch to much how real planes work ? )

 

The P-39 is, by the numbers, only an average climber. Speed and climb are about the same as the Yak-7. Climb is better than the FW-190 but well below the 109G4 and others. The firepower is quite good but I wish you had more ammo for the .50 cals and the 37mm. I never remove the wing .30 cals, the marginal improvement in performance doesnt make enough difference against its competition to warrant giving up that extra firepower. The 3 different types of guns make it kind of hard to hit with all three unfortunately. But it does give you a good 'cone of fire' so that when you are shooting its like a shotgun effect, you're more likely to hit something at least.

As far as coordination goes, the amount of rudder you need to correct adverse yaw varies with air speed and the rate of roll you are trying to do. Rolling slowly requires less rudder, a snappy roll will require more, so you just have to get your feet and your hands working together so that you use the right proportion of rudder to aileron force. At high speeds there is generally less adverse yaw in a turn because the airflow counteracts the adverse yaw somewhat, so you need less rudder. At low speeds you will get more adverse yaw and will require more rudder to compensate. The ball is very sensitive to any yaw behaviour and if you watch the videos of some very good pilots it is not always perfectly centred, that is very difficult to do especially without any physical feedback from the aircraft. So don't sweat it too much. Use rudder trim if the plane has it available.

The rudder is, I find, VERY sensitive for most planes in the sim, its very easy to use too much rudder (at least, I find that).  You may wish to fiddle with the various sensitivity settings and dead zones for the rudder axis until you find a setting that allows you to be precise in your inputs.  If you're coming from ROF, I believe WWII planes generally require less rudder to coordinate the turn than WWI birds.



 

[pa4tim]

Yesterday evening I just flew a whole bunch of planes doing nothing more as start, taxi, take off, fly some small and big turns, do a lazy 8 and then fly to the nearest runway to land.

The last month or so I only flew FC planes , P39 and spitfire. 

 

I already liked the BF109's and that did not change. However I forgot how fast and nice flying most of them are. The first landing took me several rounds around the runway to bleed off enough speed. Landing succes was a bit 50:50. The FW190's are OK too but I do not like the medium visibility and in both types I "missed" manual controls.

 

But I never really flew the Russians before, I only tried most of them 1 time the first week I bought IL2. I did not like them mostly because all instruments are in Russian and they have rather boring looking cockpits (I love cockpits with a lot of meters and EL lighting). But I liked the visibility compared to the FW109's.

- I now know I prefer tricycles over taildraggers (but who does not, can not wait to try the P38) the P39 is a dream to taxi, take off and land.

- the I16, hmm, I already liked flying it but it was on this (bumpy grass) runway a very hard task to get it up. It jumped all over the place.  1 time it jumped so wild it lifted a wheel and broke a wingtip. It felt like it had a very soft tire, soft springs but no shockabsorbers. Most times I need one or 2 trials in a new plane to get the feel for it during take off but this one was more like a rodeo. 

- I indeed like the Yak-1 several people mentioned. But I was also pleasantly surprised by the Mig-3 and the Lagg-3. I must try them again and try more because one of them I really liked a lot but I forgot which one . I had successful landings in all three of them.

- I also tried the A20 and PE2 and IL-2. The IL-2 was not hard to fly but is not my thing,  I do not know why. The PE2 also but the A20 is a very nice plane. Only strange thing was that I could aim all gunners but 1 with my mouse. For that 1 I needed to set my POV in panmode. Probably a bomber thing because in the 111 (or is it JU88 ? ) I can not use one of the gunners because the camera then jumps outside the plane and there also is a bomber where I can not nestle a gun (it reacts but nestels in the middle of nowhere)

I have not tried the Yak-7b yet. 

- For the last flights I took the P39 and the P47 as a compare. Still love the P39 still struggle with the P47.

 

The problem now is that I can not choose. I think I learned more as I thought from struggling a week with the P39. It also did not feel like I needed to do totally different things as the rest regarding basic flight so that would makes it a valid choice to go on with it. (and maybe all my flying in WW1 planes did also help a bit, but I am not sure, it is in many ways a lot different, it is a mix between ultra relaxed and very intensive, you can do the weirdest manoeuvres in those things, if they are shot down they drop like the leave of a tree with time enough to drink a cup of tea before you bail out)

 

But to practice landing and taxi I think I must fly a taildragger too.  I think that will be the spitfire and/or one of the 3 Russians (Yak, Mig, lagg) (and besides that I will fly my beloved WW1 birds)

And then in time if my base is improves I branch out to other models because I like diversity too. But who knows I start to like dogfights over ground strikes and even end up playing MP ? (Although WoT and WT have left some pretty bad mental scars)

 

A big thank you for all the helpful input.  It really helped.

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by pa4tim

[RedKestrel]

3 hours ago, pa4tim said:

 

 

But to practice landing and taxi I think I must fly a taildragger too.  I think that will be the spitfire and/or one of the 3 Russians (Yak, Mig, lagg) (and besides that I will fly my beloved WW1 birds)

And then in time if my base is improves I branch out to other models because I like diversity too. But who knows I start to like dogfights over ground strikes and even end up playing MP ? (Although WoT and WT have left some pretty bad mental scars)

 

A big thank you for all the helpful input.  It really helped.

 

Of the Russian planes, the Yak-1 is the easiest to land IMO. The MiG has the tailwheel that unlocks if you use too much rudder (more than 50% of travel) so it has a tendency to ground loop easily. But I quite like the MiG once its in the air and you have a good turn of speed.

Getting into MP is not so scary, there are a variety of casual and serious servers out there for many difficulty levels. Most of them are less populated at the moment because it is summer time and the Tactical Air War server is running, which is a very popular competitive server (not kind to beginners, but a great experience). There are various jerks and trolls like on any online game but because the barrier to playing the game is higher than games like WT, I find the online community much less toxic.

I did a whole thread on getting into MP here:

. Once you get your feet under you and get comfortable (and you are well on your way) you should give it a try. Berloga is great for just getting into furballs with enemy fighters, for example.

[pa4tim]

I played a few battles MP arcade planes  in WT. 99% of the time I played RB and SB tanks but hated the spawnkilling. 

But to get a nice plane you need to grind a lot, do well enough to get enough credits to buy them  and play MP so I tried a few arcade battles. This was probably the same as in IL-2. I spawn and before I had the time to look around I was killed, often several times by the same guy. The moment of "now I stop" when somebody chat-messaged me after a battle that I was hopeless and should de-install and play Tetris.  I was playing a rank 1 plane in the lowest level, while he had flew several 1000's of battles. 

I then thought, I must be crazy, I pay money for a premium account (so I was also a gold-nOOb) to get insulted. SP was not simulator enough because I could not find away to get rid of the markers. 

So I decided to buy TC,  bought an other BOX too because I was thinking I needed that for tanks. That let me play around with planes and I liked that a lot,  I now had a bunch of nice planes, no repair-costs or grinding. And I now love planes even more as tanks. However it took a lot of SP missions etc to play freely without feeling guilty if I screwed things up and I had bad stats  or feel constantly watched. Then at some point I experienced the freedom of SP,  that I could kill my own AI if I wanted and nobody would give a damn or ban me if I would do it. No stats everybody only uses to tell you how you suck, Or I could chase a plane 15 minutes without people telling me, I must do Boom and Zoom. I tried practice B&Z  because I am supposed to do that but then I thought, Why ?  I can not even fly good enough and I like turn fighting more, and it turned out I like ground attacks  the most (but not bombing, I think it is called straifing ? things like killing a train with a 30mm canon) or just fly around in bad weather or at night in tante JU.  And nobody cares I am the master and ACE in my own game. So I went doing that and it feels great. I do not want to loose that. 

 

It turned out the community here is very friendly and helpful  and I think I will like a serious MP mission (not just a WT like kill um all as fast as possible) but I am to afraid to get back in that "Wot/WT caused state of mind"  Maybe if I am getting better I will try it sometime. 

 

My first step after learning the flying basics will be SP without markers etc and practice navigating because I really stink at that (also in RL)  And if that all works out there is a medium chance I will try MP. But in that case I would like it with discord (I have a headset because I am a licenced ham ?  PA4TIM is my callsign) and if possible together with someone as a wingman who knows I am new and I can follow him and take his orders so I know what to do and things like navigation are maybe more easy. 

 

And now i quit wining and go on flying the P39 career?

Edited August 28, 2019 by pa4tim

[Raptorattacker]

@pa4tim You are WELL out of the WT ratrace mate! I spent quite a few years in there, even running a fairly top Squadron and the poison that flies around in the chat and the antics of a lot of users is absolutely horrible. The Forum here for instance is about the best, most helpful and 'mature' one that I've ever been involved with (and THAT'S saying something!!). Stick around, learn the ropes, practice and you'll never look back!!

Rap

[No.85_Camm]

Try the Sopwith Camel.

If you would like practical instruction (without looking at the many manuals), send me a PM and I may be able to help you

[AndyJWest]

2 hours ago, No.85_Camm said:

Try the Sopwith Camel.

If you would like practical instruction (without looking at the many manuals), send me a PM and I may be able to help you

 

Trying to learn to fly using the Camel makes no sense at all. It is unstable in pitch, and the gyroscopic effects of the rotary engine complicate turning greatly. 

 

If you want to learn to fly, you should start with something simple, stable and forgiving. Not something that regularly killed those supposedly 'trained' enough to handle it. I recommend either of the early Sturmoviks (the later 1943 model is a little less forgiving). 

[Poochnboo]

I can't believe that someone actually suggested the Sopwith Camel as a trainer....and wasn't being sarcastic!

[pa4tim]

I kinda like the Camel...not my favorite and not the most easy to fly but I prefer it a lot over the P47  ?

 

I made some progress. I had the afternoon free to practice. I found the Airplane flying Handbook from the FAA. In there was a chapter with basic manoeuvres and one was called steep turns. After looking for videos about that I found a video that extended it to flying an eight around 2 pylons.It was called Commercial Eights On Pylons.  At first it was really difficult because you need to look at the pylon and keep the tip off the wing stationary at the pylon point. And that is my problem regarding landings.  I could not even come close to it and crashed constant because I could not fly while looking to the pylon

 

 

So I then first flew about 15 minutes only looking out my left or right window while trying to make some careful slow turns and try to keep a constant altitude but also some going up/down This to get a feeling for flying without looking in the flight direction.  I then practiced coordinated turns and Chandelles in ROF because there adverse jaw is modeled in the FM of most planes (and chandelles are "invented in WW1) . This was also very educational because now I need to look how the plane reacts instead of on a meter.

 

After that I took the P39 and started doing a mix of "Commercial Eights On Pylons"(strange name)  and steep turns ( = flying steep turns around one pylon). And now it went very well. It is very cool to see your wingtip almost glued to the pivot point while you can turn endlessly very short turns. 

 

I then combined it all to find airstrips (keep looking at them while turning towards them) and to make U turns to approach them correct (like Requiem does) . That made landing a lot more easy.

After that I used the P39 to taxi (that is big fun, it ended in racing around the airfield as a sort of nascar imitation) The P39 is so easy to taxi. It can make 360 degrees turns on the spot but also race around with 40 ml/h (until you flip over). It does not kill props and it makes no ground loops. It reacts very fast on corrections. Only problem is if I make turns to slow with flaps down. It then often drops sideways uncontrollable at 3/4th of the turn.  I prefer landing it (and taking off) without flaps so I must now use a plane that does needs flaps for practice in that field.

 

Also tried a taildragger to taxi and found a trick to make taxi more easy. Cockpit open, move the pilot max left looking outside the cockpit to the front and saved that in the front-left snapview. The same for right. Now you can taxi in the snakeway and easy flip your POV switch from left to right to look in front of the plane. (i have no VR or head-tracking) That solved the "blind while taxi" problem. But I need a lot of work in those to not kill a prop while bouncing to the ground. 

 

The rest of the afternoon I flew the P39 from airfield to airfield, (landing, taxi back over the runway, turn and take off again) under-while trying to find ground target (no markers on) The landing etc went well. Finding ground targets is freaking difficult. In all that time I found a train, a few cars and some artillery but did not managed to kill anything because if I turned around to attack them I could not find them again. I really start to love that little plane. I still crash so now and then but that was most times while searching for limits.

 

At the end as a test a few dogfights and that made clear that I will need a lot more practice in shooting and combat manoeuvres but not crashing all the time  is a nice start.  

 

Thank you all for the patience and help.  It feels good to make some progress.

 

[OrLoK]

Forcing myself to really get to grips in realistic settings with the P40 really prepared me for most other aircraft as it needs alot of monitoring.

 

Everything else seems "easy" afterward.

 

Its also a very effective ground pounder and even I can get the occasional air to air kill with it.

 

It gets my seal of approval.

[Diggun]

6 minutes ago, OrLoK said:

Forcing myself to really get to grips in realistic settings with the P40 really prepared me for most other aircraft

I've been spending some time doing this in the P-40 recently, and I have to say I fully agree. i spent ages being 'scared' of it, but once you've got the fear of the engine management out of your skull she's actually a really effective aircraft. Anything gets in the way of those .50 cals even for a split second is going to have a bad day.