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jollyjack

SAVE GAME option halfways trough a mission

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Just a Q: is it possible (or will it be in a future update) to save a mission hallways through, for replaying part of it? SP of course for starters. 

 

I really hate it when after touring towards the action through 15 minutes, and finally action shows, you hit the drink or worse, and you'll have to sit trough the whole intro again to try to do better next time.

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AFAIK There is no such option, but I would be glad to see it in the future, during some missions it might be discouraging to fly to the action point 30 minutes, just to to fail 10 times in a row.

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Honestly, I don't think that it would be feasible. To properly capture and save an instant during a mission would require an enormous save game file containing an incomprehensible amount of data. 

 

All data relating to position, velocity, damage levels, current mode of the AI right down to engine temperature would have to be recorded for every single vehicle in the mission as well as ballistics for every single bomb and projectile currently in flight, position and damage level of every single static object etc. etc. 

 

To properly record and extract such a huge amount of data without game-crashing glitches would be something of a task, not really something you just implement overnight and most likely not worth the effort. 

Edited by Finkeren
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3 hours ago, Finkeren said:

Honestly, I don't think that it would be feasible. To properly capture and save an instant during a mission would require an enormous save game file containing an incomprehensible about of data. 

 

All data relating to position, velocity, damage levels, current mode of the AI right down to engine temperature would have to be recorded for every single vehicle in the mission as well as ballistics for every single bomb and projectile currently in flight, position and damage level of every single static object etc. etc. 

 

To properly record and extract such a huge amount of data without game-crashing glitches would be something of a task, not really something you just implement overnight and most likely not worth the effort. 

 

This isn't true. It would require a tiny fraction of the data stored in a track recording.

However, adding such a feature is not always easy to do.

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16 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

This isn't true. It would require a tiny fraction of the data stored in a track recording.

 

 

Are you sure about that?  I get that a save is a single time slice while a track has a very large number of time slices, but is the data stored in a track recording as complete or in the same format as it is in the game? If it is then it should be possible to take any time slice from a track and simply restart the game from  there.  Somehow I  suspect that it is not that simple.

 

Anyway, since we have refly buttons and time acceleration a save function seems unnecessary to me. Of the many possible changes to the game I can think of, in-flight saving is just about last on my wish list. It is not as though you permanently lose hit-points or inventory when you fail a boss mission!

Edited by unreasonable

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I can save a flight "in mid air" in FSX/P3D etc. Why not here? It is very useful. And no, you wouldn't have to save all positions for debris and bullets.

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With a save-game function you could have an alternative to the jerky, slightly comic time acceleration and be able to fly historic missions in real time. 

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17 hours ago, jollyjack said:

Just a Q: is it possible (or will it be in a future update) to save a mission hallways through, for replaying part of it? SP of course for starters. 

 

I really hate it when after touring towards the action through 15 minutes, and finally action shows, you hit the drink or worse, and you'll have to sit trough the whole intro again to try to do better next time.

Press the 'Pause' key? I remember having the game paused for two hours or so, and then went on flying my mission to an end.

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15 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Press the 'Pause' key? I remember having the game paused for two hours or so, and then went on flying my mission to an end.

 

And when something goes wrong, does the 'Pause key' allow you to 'skip the whole intro again', as I believe this is the main issue for OP?

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A track records everything important. So why should a snapshot / safepoint not be possible? In career at each waypoint would be very handy. It would allow me to finish one of these very long escort- or bombing-missions at another date. I do not allways have the time to finish them. I have to ALT-F4 to to  not loose my progress in career when RL interrupts. So yes, savepoints would help a lot.

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56 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Press the 'Pause' key? I remember having the game paused for two hours or so, and then went on flying my mission to an end.

Works for short flights. What we basically have here in almost all instances, hence it is less acute. But I'd be royally annoyed to do "round-the-world" flights on P3D without the option of saving in flight.

 

Having that save point however would enable you to save during a campaign mission, where you know you'll have a very interesting attack run after a long flight. It would give you the option to replay from there if you got focked or flaked, as well as keep it as a good mission for occasional replay without having to venture in the depht of the mission builder, a program that I opened and then closed again. (And that was it.)

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10 minutes ago, cellinsky said:

A track records everything important.

 

I was just wondering if that is actually true.  Perhaps you would have to generate a new mission file at each save point in order for the AI to know what to do after play resumes.  I have no idea if a track file could do that, or if it simply records information relevant to what you can see on your screen, which is only part of what is going on.

 

 

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1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

 

Are you sure about that?  I get that a save is a single time slice while a track has a very large number of time slices, but is the data stored in a track recording as complete or in the same format as it is in the game? If it is then it should be possible to take any time slice from a track and simply restart the game from  there.  Somehow I  suspect that it is not that simple.

 

It's not quite that simple to implament, but the size of the save file would still be that small. Saving game states for any game, including ones as complex as, or more complex than, IL2 does not take much space as none of the saved data is temopral and it tends to consist of just floats, strings, arrays etc. Nothing that takes up crazy space.

 

However, depending on how the code is right now, it might be a complete nightmare to add a save feature. It could be simple, but it could also involve rewriting large parts of the game in addition to implamenting the feature it's self.

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Just glancing through this I saw mention of tracks. Tacview has tracos in DCS that yiu can run like a movie and watch - the really novel part is you can jump into any unit you own a module of at any point and take control then the mission plays out like a normal one would

If they were to do this save ixea I think thatd be a great way to implement

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This would be a great feature to have. I’m sure anything is possible. 

WWII missions can be quite lengthy and the ability to save and return to them would be really great. 

This I think is one of the chief reasons why flight sims aren’t popular. They can’t be played in short sessions the way that other games can. It’s quite a barrier to playability. 

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6 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

This isn't true. It would require a tiny fraction of the data stored in a track recording.

However, adding such a feature is not always easy to do.

 

I would think that the truth is half way.  You need the original mission plus history up to the point of save to deal with the deltas.  That is a fair amount of data but certainly not impossible.  The idea would be to store the deltas only.  On restart you load the mission then apply the deltas.  Deltas would involve all movement and all state changes for every object, which sounds like a lot of data but really isn't.  Then you would have to be smart enough to know which log file set you were writing to and continue on with that same log file set, which should also be within the realm of possibility.

 

Having said all of that, it's not three days of work.  Probably closer to several weeks to really get it right, and . that is competing with other priorities.

 

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As I remember them, Aces of the Pacific and Aces Over Europe had this ability. It was a nice feature to redo those once in a lifetime scenarios, testing different maneuvers. 

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On 8/26/2019 at 6:30 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

Having said all of that, it's not three days of work.  Probably closer to several weeks to really get it right, and . that is competing with other priorities.

 

But that will make IL2 + PWCG the only one solution to provide this feature in the world of combat flight sims. I still do not understand why this feature is not on "top list" for devs of il2 BoS or more for DCS world. Really a game changer for SP player, which count for a far wider customer number than MP players...

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2 hours ago, lefuneste said:

 

But that will make IL2 + PWCG the only one solution to provide this feature in the world of combat flight sims. I still do not understand why this feature is not on "top list" for devs of il2 BoS or more for DCS world. Really a game changer for SP player, which count for a far wider customer number than MP players...

 

I don't think PWCG is a consideration one way or the other.  Not my place to argue priorities. I suspect that given what  they already have on their plate this is not at the top, but that is just a guess. 

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I still wonder why this isn’t a feature in flight sims. Every other game has a save feature. The lack of this really cripples the appeal of this genre. It’s not simply the requirement of a joystick that makes this a niche genre. It’s that there’s no way to play this in short sessions and have any meaningful progress. It’s obviously possible because the game can save entire mission tracks. Is this just some misplaced idea of realism? The attempt to sell scripted campaigns is no doubt much less successful without a save system. 

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12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I still wonder why this isn’t a feature in flight sims. Every other game has a save feature. The lack of this really cripples the appeal of this genre. It’s not simply the requirement of a joystick that makes this a niche genre. It’s that there’s no way to play this in short sessions and have any meaningful progress. It’s obviously possible because the game can save entire mission tracks. Is this just some misplaced idea of realism? The attempt to sell scripted campaigns is no doubt much less successful without a save system. 

I think the assumption is that the average sim pilot has a lot of tolerance and even affinity for long gaming sessions, more so than other gamers, and that they are the type of people who are going to sit down and play for at least a couple hours per session. I basically don't play the game unless I have at least an hour to set aside, and more like two. But I fly mostly online these days so saving is a moot point, but when I played a lot of career mode there were quite a few times when I would have played had I been able to stop halfway through and resume later.

I don't think this assumption is necessarily correct, I think its a product of simmers putting up with it for so long  that its assumed to not be a problem. Instead its a problem that we just put up with because its been normalized so much. I've played a few combat sims going back a couple decades and don't remember an in-mission save possibility on most of them, but most of them featured time skips (MS CFS, Jane's F-15) or working time acceleration (like Il-2 1946). I think the time skips would be harder to implement than a save point as they would be more limiting to mission design. 

Certainly there are at least a few people who say they pretty much only fly QMB missions because of a lack of time. Which means they are missing out on a huge chunk of the game for lack of a feature like this.

I wonder, too, if the way the career mode is setup with the online server check ins would complicate saving and re-starting missions. 

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19 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:


I don't think this assumption is necessarily correct, I think its a product of simmers putting up with it for so long  that its assumed to not be a problem. 

It’s an incredibly flawed assumption. Just imagine any other game type that didn’t have saves in it. That game would totally fail in the marketplace. Oh wait and here we are failing! Everyone wonders why this is such a niche genre. This is a big reason why. You’re asking people to play a game which has no progress or meaning unless you devote hour long sessions to it. 
I just got a racing sim Assetto Corsa Competizione which features realistic hour long SP Career races with pit stops etc. You can save your progress!

Now imagine how ridiculous and unapproachable this game would be if you forced every player to sit at the game for an hour or get nothing from it. Nobody in their right mind would design a game like that. This is why flight sims are such a failure in their appeal to the larger market and it has nothing to do with being complex, difficult or needing a joystick. It’s the lack of any meaningful way to play the game in shorter sessions in the way that every other game does. 

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6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s an incredibly flawed assumption. Just imagine any other game type that didn’t have saves in it. That game would totally fail in the marketplace. Oh wait and here we are failing! Everyone wonders why this is such a niche genre. This is a big reason why. You’re asking people to play a game which has no progress or meaning unless you devote hour long sessions to it. 
I just got a racing sim Assetto Corsa Competizione which features realistic hour long SP Career races with pit stops etc. You can save your progress!

Now imagine how ridiculous and unapproachable this game would be if you forced every player to sit at the game for an hour or get nothing from it. Nobody in their right mind would design a game like that. This is why flight sims are such a failure in their appeal to the larger market and it has nothing to do with being complex, difficult or needing a joystick. It’s the lack of any meaningful way to play the game in shorter sessions in the way that every other game does. 

I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with needing a stick or being complex. Generally the barrier to sims is overall accessibility - steep learning curve and hardware requirements definitely play a big part, especially as other genres become more intuitive and standardized in terms of equipment (is there any other genre that doesn't function perfectly well with just a mouse and keyboard?). Even an entry level joystick like the Logitech Extreme 3D is nearly the cost of an entire other game, so the price of getting into flight sims at all is basically double any other genre.

The genre as a whole has just gotten complacent about attracting new players and keeping the game accessible, while most of the industry has gone the other direction. It doesn't help that sections of the player base are actively hostile towards anything with a whiff of 'casual' to it. Some people are even hostile to referring to the game as, well, a game.

 

If we're looking at low hanging fruit in terms of increasing accessibility, a save function is a good start. The other one is improved documentation - we have entire threads of speculation on the forum as to how certain things in the game function because there is no official word on what a specific setting does - frustrating for beginner players who just want to get into it. Both would help people who have less time available - one will help people who can only play 20 or 30 minutes at a time, the other would help save set up and learning curve time just to get into the game. Both would also require no compromise in gameplay function or realism. It would take developer time, but so does everything else in the sim, including things that don't necessarily bring in more money.

 

 

 

 

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On 1/30/2020 at 11:20 AM, RedKestrel said:


The genre as a whole has just gotten complacent about attracting new players and keeping the game accessible, while most of the industry has gone the other direction.

Marketing a game towards the retired and unemployed is a sure path to failure. No other game in the world lacks this feature. Or any computer software for that matter, can you imagine any software you work on for and hour with no way to save your work? It’s a ridiculous flaw in the game design. How do they expect anyone to buy these DLC campaigns?

Edited by SharpeXB
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