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von_Michelstamm

how big can we expect bomber formations to be in BP?

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Just curious. I get there are engine limitations, but seeing decent size defensive formations would be sweet.
Is a squadron of 12 quad-engined aircraft feasible, along with supporting fighters?

180422-F-FN604-020.JPG.77d76c4bdf68221f528506a8fdd8ad2a.JPG

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Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings, but, it has been said many times. There will be no four engine a\c :( game engine can't handle it.

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4 minutes ago, von_Michelstamm said:

Just curious. I get there are engine limitations, but seeing decent size defensive formations would be sweet.
Is a squadron of 12 quad-engined aircraft feasible, along with supporting fighters?

 

Check this out:

 

 

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I argue here that it might be possible using a Lancaster (or Halifax): 

But that is very unlikely to happen as well... (for unrelated reasons)

 

...maybe in a decade we'll see the big daylight formation? Or in another engine!

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, fubar_2_niner said:

Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings, but, it has been said many times. There will be no four engine a\c :( game engine can't handle it.

 

Oh, i thought there were going to be 4 engine planes, but they were going to be AI only?

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Just now, von_Michelstamm said:

 

Oh, i thought there were going to be 4 engine planes, but they were going to be AI only?

 

Nope. We will get the B-25 twin engined medium bomber as an AI plane.

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We get as said B 25 ai. We can hope it one day will be flyable. 

Bobp is aimed to be a fighter vs fighter scenario. 

But might be developed later

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Posted (edited)

Not to drone on about it but,     If heavies were included as drones, with no FM, simplified damage and 3D models and used in the same manner as truck convoys then I see no reason they shouldnt be feasable.  All they need to do is fly in a straight line at a set altitude in a set formation.  It would at least provide a reason to go to and stay at 24,000 ft rather than the constant low level shenanigans and actually pit aircraft, that were designed to perform at that altitude, against each other.  It seems quite bizarre that lots of trouble is gone into to provide a passable combat enviroment, that isn't just dogfighting, for the Eastern front, trucks, tanks, artillery, factories, bridges etc etc, but a major portion of the air campaign in the West, for which many of the aircraft involved in BoBp lineup were designed, or at least tuned, is not given the same regard. 

Edited by HagarTheHorrible
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Posted (edited)

kind of. Part of the challenge of fighting a combat box was getting it to break up. In fact LW pilots specifically got 'points' for doing this (on the western front) that counted towards awards, that weren't granted for simply killing them or finishing off stragglers.
Just flying on rails wouldn't be enough. But a simplified model makes a lot of sense.
Perhaps that's precisely what the devs are doing already, hence the un-pilotable AI bombers...

Edited by von_Michelstamm

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and in clod, those servers that did put ai he111s and ju88, do17 suffered continual complaints because they had to reduce the number of flyable slots, and caused issues when they spawn in etc. Also no one bothered escorting them, people were far more interested in blootering over and fighting at low altitude than spending time climbing over 20k. And those bombers mainly flew nearer 15k. What makes you think this would be any different?

For those majority that like to fly offline maybe it would work well, to an extent you can already make large bomber flights of ju88/he111 or A20 and go out and shoot them. Its probably then numbers limited by pc power. Online, you also need the player slots

 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, von_Michelstamm said:

kind of. Part of the challenge of fighting a combat box was getting it to break up. In fact LW pilots specifically got 'points' for doing this (on the western front) that counted towards awards, that weren't granted for simply killing them or finishing off stragglers.
Just flying on rails wouldn't be enough. But a simplified model makes a lot of sense.
Perhaps that's precisely what the devs are doing already, hence the un-pilotable AI bombers...

 

For my very personal taste it would be absolutely sufficient to implement simplified AI target drone bombers (twin or four-engined) on the sophistication scale of Il2 1946 and I would be a happy camper. Something like this would be better than nothing at all. Until, if ever, that happens I get my four-engined bomber fix with 1946. Example here:

 

 

Edited by sevenless
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Don't the bombers already fly in formations of 12 or 15 in career mode on intercept missions? (4 or 5 small formations of three line astern of each other)

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

and in clod, those servers that did put ai he111s and ju88, do17 suffered continual complaints because they had to reduce the number of flyable slots, and caused issues when they spawn in etc. Also no one bothered escorting them, people were far more interested in blootering over and fighting at low altitude than spending time climbing over 20k. And those bombers mainly flew nearer 15k. What makes you think this would be any different?

For those majority that like to fly offline maybe it would work well, to an extent you can already make large bomber flights of ju88/he111 or A20 and go out and shoot them. Its probably then numbers limited by pc power. Online, you also need the player slots

 

Not in ACG campaigns , they were used very well for both sides - attacking and defending. This can be utilized with marshal mode I hope so.

BTW In current technical limitation AI formation has to be dump down , because now 20+ formation of AI bombers reduces fps from 100+ to 20+ .

Edited by 307_Tomcat

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I did some tests last year (maybe a bit longer) and was able to get 30 He111’s without a problem. However that was basically just them.

 

When the B-25 arrives I’ll do some testing within a fully fleshed out mission and see where we’re at.

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2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I did some tests last year (maybe a bit longer) and was able to get 30 He111’s without a problem. However that was basically just them.

 

When the B-25 arrives I’ll do some testing within a fully fleshed out mission and see where we’re at.

Gunners were inactive ?

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I did some tests last year (maybe a bit longer) and was able to get 30 He111’s without a problem. However that was basically just them.

 

When the B-25 arrives I’ll do some testing within a fully fleshed out mission and see where we’re at.

 

Yep something between 12 to 25 machines, depending on your CPU speed. IckyATLAS gives a very good breakdown here:

 

 

Edited by sevenless

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17 minutes ago, 307_Tomcat said:

Gunners were inactive ?

 

Yep

 

So when the B-25 hits beta I’ll do some more indicitave/relevant tests.

18 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Yep something between 12 to 25 machines, depending on your CPU speed. IckyATLAS gives a very good breakdown here:

 

 

 

Yeah he did his test later, and still very simplistic. I need to know what happens in one of my scripted campaign missions full of logic and units, ground and air.

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2 hours ago, 307_Tomcat said:

Not in ACG campaigns , they were used very well for both sides - attacking and defending. This can be utilized with marshal mode I hope so.

BTW In current technical limitation AI formation has to be dump down , because now 20+ formation of AI bombers reduces fps from 100+ to 20+ .

yes you are right and they were very good, our squad frequented them a lot. Those were organised events in the main if I remember correctly though. Still running arent they?

But the servers that just ran all time suffered at lot of abuse to remove them.

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Regardless of performance, bomber escort wasn't the role of either of the Allied Air Forces we see in Bodenplatte.

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10 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Regardless of performance, bomber escort wasn't the role of either of the Allied Air Forces we see in Bodenplatte.

 

Incorrect.

The 352nd flew quite a few escort missions from Y-29 and Chievres.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Incorrect.

The 352nd flew quite a few escort missions from Y-29 and Chievres.

 

 

 

Because they were an 8th AF unit. Only a detachment was sent to Asch, not the entire group.

 

By the time the full group arrives our Campaign is almost over and they are back under control of the 8th AF. I think it's reasonable to assume we won't have the option to play as the 352nd for very long in our Campaign given their limited presence under command of the 9th, which is the air force represented in Bodenplatte.

Edited by Talon_

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Because they were an 8th AF unit. Only a detachment was sent to Asch, not the entire group.

 

By the time the full group arrives our Campaign is almost over and they are back under control of the 8th AF.

 

I know their history.

The 487th and 328th went first, the 486th came later.

 

Edit...In any case this is irrelevant to either post.

Edited by Gambit21

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And regardless of game design, bomber interception was the main task of all the Jagdgeschwader featured in Bodenplatte. 

 

Nevertheless a too simplified fm/dm and to drone like behaviour for heavies wouldn't be what I want. The hits scored on a heavy will seldom bring it down, but they have to matter. The bomber has to be more difficult to handle for the ai after certain hits so it gets isolated and can be finished off.

 

so simplified yes - dronelike/trucklike no. 

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Drones don’t need FM’s or sophisticated DM’s, just statistically believable outcomes, a dice rolling game (basic bread and butter for computers).  Bombers would just need several, obvious hit boxes that then respond to a statistical hit table, this in turn then leads to several ”canned” outcomes, either catastrophic damage, with the bomber plunging to earth, or falling out of formation in one of potentially several scripted outcomes. The bomber would still be able to be attacked by an assailant and completely destroyed, it just wouldn’t react in any way other than to further damage, but as far as the game is concerned the bomber is dead  (have the crew bail out if necessary) and won’t impact stats or mission goals.  The object of the bomber formations is not the destruction of individual bombers, as personally satisfying as that might be, but either preventing it completing it’s mission by inflicting enough overall damage to the entire formation or, from the other side preventing the attackers from doing so.

 

If Heavy bomber formations, in believable numbers, are to be included then there has to be an acceptance, a compromise, just as we accept compromises in the depiction of the ground war.  That doesn’t mean that events don’t have to APPEAR to be credible, just that the resources involved in arriving at that point need to be balanced to fulfil the illusion, nothing more.

 

The concept might even be done as a mini expansion, after all the main combatants, player aircraft, are already done.  Consider it like an additional map, just one that happens to be in the air, at 20,000 ft.  

 

The video above of the bomber formation, from the original IL2, is a good example, visually, of what can be achieved by using simplified resource aware models. Look too closely and the illusion is degraded, just as looking at 3D models of ground units in the present game might, but seen as they are designed to be seen and they provide a passable foil for our world.

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14 hours ago, thenorm said:

Don't the bombers already fly in formations of 12 or 15 in career mode on intercept missions? (4 or 5 small formations of three line astern of each other)

 

That's not even a single complete squadron of WW2 bombers.  Weird!

Ten or fifteen years ago I imagined that today's sims would be able to support at east 100+ AI aircraft by now.  Not a 50% reduction in what my Pentium 2 could handle in 2004.  I honestly wonder how many AI the next generation of flight sims will be able to manage.  Whether it will be less or more.

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1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

That's not even a single complete squadron of WW2 bombers.  Weird!

Ten or fifteen years ago I imagined that today's sims would be able to support at east 100+ AI aircraft by now.  Not a 50% reduction in what my Pentium 2 could handle in 2004.  I honestly wonder how many AI the next generation of flight sims will be able to manage.  Whether it will be less or more.

 

FMs were much, much less complicated. Ever notice how Microsoft Word never really gets any faster from hardware generation to hardware generation? The better the hardware, the more the software will use it.

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11 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

FMs were much, much less complicated. Ever notice how Microsoft Word never really gets any faster from hardware generation to hardware generation? The better the hardware, the more the software will use it.

Ah is is what they want you to believe. Ive got it on good authority from raaid that its because back then we all had smaller screens and so the aircraft were littler and so you could fit more of them into your hard drive......

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17 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

I did some tests last year (maybe a bit longer) and was able to get 30 He111’s without a problem. However that was basically just them.

 

When the B-25 arrives I’ll do some testing within a fully fleshed out mission and see where we’re at.

At present and in the future I’m concerned that the FM of the bombers doesn’t have them flying in tight formation all the way to their targets but tend to break off from their course and or break formation discipline to maneuver individually, when attacked,esp in QM missions.When the B-25’s finally arrive I’d love a mission planner get them to fly in tight formation on their way to a target on the upcoming BoB map.

BTW: It is fun to see the real & CG B-25’s in the new Hulu series “Catch 22”.With the exception of the heavier than realistic flak the in flight scenes of B-25s in formation are very nicely done.Hard to tell that the film makers had only three real B-25’s to play with!

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7 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

And regardless of game design, bomber interception was the main task of all the Jagdgeschwader featured in Bodenplatte. 

 

No it was not, that was Luftflotte Reich. The Western groups were focussed on intercepting the Allies tactical air missions. Indeed, for Bp quite a few main defence formations were transferred forward from interception duties to a tactical role.

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15 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

No it was not, that was Luftflotte Reich. The Western groups were focussed on intercepting the Allies tactical air missions. Indeed, for Bp quite a few main defence formations were transferred forward from interception duties to a tactical role.

 

 

Yes and no.  Many of the pilots and aircraft used in BoBp were drawn from units:training schools that had been specifically trained/undertrained and deployed to strike at the bomber formations. That the airborne component of the defence of the Reich virtually ceased to exist after BoBp was a question of priorities and desperation rather than tactical planning.  Outside of the scripted missions or campaign it is a bit pointless to confine the players to tactical choices taken under vastly different conditions by the two sides.

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11 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

 

By the time the full group arrives our Campaign is almost over and they are back under control of the 8th AF. I think it's reasonable to assume we won't have the option to play as the 352nd for very long in our Campaign given their limited presence under command of the 9th, which is the air force represented in Bodenplatte.

  

I think you’re trying too hard to be correct.

The fact is that the 352nd saw plenty of action in Belgium, both supporting the 9th and flying escort - the end.

 

Now if you want to make the point that representing their escort duties accurately won’t be possible then I can’t argue.

 

B-25’s can make reasonable stand-in’s however.

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On 8/10/2019 at 1:43 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

B-25’s can make reasonable stand-in’s however.

 

Aye. I could totally see map makers using the B-25s as scripted mission objectives. Like multiple flights heading for a target, goal is to escort them or shoot them down.

 

The main challenge there would be how to make it a non-trivial objective for the "defending" side. Wiping out a combat box of 36 heavy bombers is a lot harder than, say, 5 B-25s in close formation.

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I remember I got the extra addon for il 2

aces over europe or something. 

Finally flew over europe and when the large formation of b 17 dropped bombs and they exploded the game froze up. It was not the amount of ai, but some coding and dust particles you could not see, it could be anywhere in map far away from you. Game froze up. 

Rome was not buildt in one day nor old il2 and not gb. 

I see no reason for a future ai that do not affect gameplay , but I wont hold my breath waiting for it. And it wont happen in bopb timeframe

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On 8/10/2019 at 7:42 AM, Feathered_IV said:

Ten or fifteen years ago I imagined that today's sims would be able to support at east 100+ AI aircraft by now.  Not a 50% reduction in what my Pentium 2 could handle in 2004. 

 

Today’s sim could easily support 100+ if they flew with a simplified FM and screen resolution was 1280x720.  Developers have to decide what their priorities are.  The more realistic the flight models and graphics, the fewer aircraft that you can fit in a small section of the sky.

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1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Today’s sim could easily support 100+ if they flew with a simplified FM and screen resolution was 1280x720

 

If you  refer to this simulator I understood it was limited by the way ai is made in this game.

I am not challenging your statement, but the little I understood by ai in this game is:

in multiplayer a ai gunner take same resources as a human gunner and the same goes for a pilot. 

By simplified ai , you mean like old il 2 that after 20 years development actually works better, but are programmed to fly a plane and only simulate they get the same boundaries as human flyers, while in this game the ai actually have the same boundaries as human    

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1 hour ago, LuseKofte said:

 

If you  refer to this simulator I understood it was limited by the way ai is made in this game.

 

I'm referring to all games.  Even with no AI if you get a bunch of aircraft in a small area with bombs exploding and aircraft smoking the frames per second will plummet.  In EAW the frame rate would drop when lots of those bombers started to smoke from damage.

 

A developer has to balance the graphics, flight models, damage, and lots of other factors.  This developer decided that large formations of AI aircraft was not a high priority.  So AI aircraft get the same flight model as humans.  Adding a simplified flight and damage model for large formations of AI aircraft would be a huge project.  It would also result in countless Youtube videos of the simplified aircraft doing completely ridiculous things.  But even then there would probably be massive FPS loss when a large formation of AI bomber is attacked by a large number of enemy fighters.

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It would be interesting to have another game in great battles series with simplified fm for the ai. More planes(together with four engined bombers) in the air and more ground units and with richer career. How it will sell? As much as i like Box, i will buy it immediately to have more fun in sp career. Something like modern  IL2-1946 but with less variety of planes of course. Box is absolutely excellent when you setup 4x4 planes in qmb. FPS are smooth, no cpu slowdowns, just small quick dogfight with nice fm, dm and graphic, but once you want something more in sp experience, you realize how much is still missing. (Since Rof time).

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