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II./JG77_motoadve

Now that the pilot will have more realistic limitations, can we have trim axis?

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Feels a lot more immersive moving the trim wheel on trim wheel operated aircraft.

With the new physics for pilots then it should not create an advantage anymore , cannot be abused, and people wont be able to cheat (Hope so?)

 

Would be nice to be able to assign an axis to a trim wheel .

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Will your pilot get tired turning the trim wheel?

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22 minutes ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Will we be able to double-bind it to our joystick pitch axis as well? 

....why would you want to do that?

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1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

....why would you want to do that?

Ask the 109 and 190 pilots who do it this way. 

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24 minutes ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Ask the 109 and 190 pilots who do it this way. 

Usually 109/190 pilots are too busy shooting at me to chat. :( It's a lonely life for a small falcon.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Will we be able to double-bind it to our joystick pitch axis as well? 

This why I ask, if someone tries to cheat with this, what they should get with the new physiology pilot model is a blackout, so actually it will be possible to assign trim to an axis and use  a trim wheel.

I have two.😀

 

No photo description available.

Edited by II./JG77_motoadve
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Yes please! Right now it’s my only serious problem with the game... I have build a trim box for that reason and I can’t use it... 

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11 hours ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Ask the 109 and 190 pilots who do it this way. 

The 190 doesn't have the trim on an axis, as it didn't have IRL, too.

Apart from that, yes, I too would love to have the trim on axis, especially for my 110.

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14 hours ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Will we be able to double-bind it to our joystick pitch axis as well?

11 hours ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Ask the 109 and 190 pilots who do it this way. 

 

Could you please name one that does this, so I could ask him? 

 

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16 hours ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Ask the 109 and 190 pilots who do it this way. 

I would also want to know a pilot who does this. I mostly fly 109s and not once i would have been glad that the stab would be on my pitch axis. It is perfectly fine to use it on any separate (such as on the warthog throttle, separate them and use the smaller one as stabilizer). On the pitch i guess the input would be too extreme, leading to a terrible wobbling nose

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2 hours ago, =FC=SteelFalcon said:

I would also want to know a pilot who does this. I mostly fly 109s and not once i would have been glad that the stab would be on my pitch axis. It is perfectly fine to use it on any separate (such as on the warthog throttle, separate them and use the smaller one as stabilizer). On the pitch i guess the input would be too extreme, leading to a terrible wobbling nose

I just can't imagine how you would ever have precise control of your pitch movements. I guess if you put a huge deadzone around the middle? But then you'd get an accelerated stall if you pulled just a bit too hard as the stab kicked in. 

I guess if people want to do it they can go for it, seems like too much work when you already have a plane that beats most of its competition in terms of raw performance.

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11 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The 190 doesn't have the trim on an axis, as it didn't have IRL, too.

Apart from that, yes, I too would love to have the trim on axis, especially for my 110.

The 109 and 190 certainly can have the level stabilizer bound to an axis. Check the settings.

 

11 hours ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

Could you please name one that does this, so I could ask him? 

 

 

This is not the first thread to discuss pitch trim not being axis bind-able while level stabilizer settings for axis planes are.  Look around the forum.  I'm sure you'll find out more. 

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1 hour ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

This is not the first thread to discuss pitch trim not being axis bind-able while level stabilizer settings for axis planes are.  Look around the forum.  I'm sure you'll find out more. 

 

I asked for the names of these pilots, who co-bind stabilizer trim to their joystick pitch, to ask them why on earth would they do such an absurd thing. So far I have only heard of rumors of such pilots, like bigfoot rumors, but unlike these bigfoot cases, have not heard or seen of any "documented sightings" of such pilots.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I just can't imagine how you would ever have precise control of your pitch movements. I guess if you put a huge deadzone around the middle?

I can only see a slight benefit when trying to stay behind a more maneuverable fighter, committing to the turnfight of a yak as an example. Low speed, flaps and quick change in nose up stabilizer setting would allow a 109 to stay behind the yak and get a gun solution.

 

but if properly flown in a 109, one should never find himself in a turnfight anyway.

Edited by =FC=SteelFalcon

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1 hour ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

The 109 and 190 certainly can have the level stabilizer bound to an axis. Check the settings

OK, I have to admit you are right. Again a thing I clearly have to say, I don't understand the Devs. Implementing an axis bound trim, and I really don't care if stabilizer or trim flaps, that was not controlled with an axis historically, but leaving all the other trims, that were controlled with an axis in form of a wheel, only operated with keys.:wacko:

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

OK, I have to admit you are right. Again a thing I clearly have to say, I don't understand the Devs. Implementing an axis bound trim, and I really don't care if stabilizer or trim flaps, that was not controlled with an axis historically, but leaving all the other trims, that were controlled with an axis in form of a wheel, only operated with keys.:wacko:

 

I don't think he is right. There is no axis for Fw190 stab trim. It has separate key buttons for stab trim up and down. You could map an axis to be that button, just like for any other trim on any other plane, but it still acts like a button and not an axis. At least on Fw190 A3.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp

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5 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

I don't think he is right. There is no axis for Fw190 stab trim. It has separate key buttons for stab trim up and down. You could "map" an axis to be that button, just like for any other trim on any other plane, but it still acts like a button and not an axis. At least on Fw190 A3.

Yes it just moves the buttons, so there is not really an advantage. But anyway, why on earth would someone want to bind the FW190's trim to an axis? The trim with the buttons works that fast, which advantage should he want to have?

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3 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Yes it just moves the buttons, so there is not really an advantage. But anyway, why on earth would someone want to bind the FW190's trim to an axis? The trim with the buttons works that fast, which advantage should he want to have?

 

Indeed, there is no advantage. The game has just that kind of feature about key bindings that you could use an axis as if it was a button. For any plane and any function. You could trim a Yak or Lagg that way - or start your engine or fire your guns, if you want to. It has nothing to do with Fw190 trim specifically. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

OK, I have to admit you are right. Again a thing I clearly have to say, I don't understand the Devs. Implementing an axis bound trim, and I really don't care if stabilizer or trim flaps, that was not controlled with an axis historically, but leaving all the other trims, that were controlled with an axis in form of a wheel, only operated with keys.:wacko:

 

I agree.  If it was a hand crank or wheel it should be able to be bound to an analog axis.   I don't think it would be hard to do either.   An example of this I can think of (admittedly not trim but seems to be the same concept ) is the Pe-2 Series 35 RPM control vs. the Pe-2 Series 87 RPM control.  The Ser. 35 RPM is controlled with a toggle switch in the cockpit.  The Ser. 87 has a control wheel.  The .87 is bind-able to an axis. The .35 is not. 

 

Admittedly, I don't fly Axis planes very much in MP, so I don't have much time on comms teamworking with blue.  I might change that sometime.  I can't name specific pilots.  

From what I understand - and I could be wrong - is that the Adjustable Stabilizer has no added drag or AoA effects on the elevator surfaces. It allows harder/amplified degrees-per-second maneuvers before wing stalling occurs.  

 

I can only "report a bigfoot sighting" myself when I say that I have seen 109s go full 90 degrees upward vertical and flip around 180 degrees in less than 2 seconds, point straight down and shoot accurately while the plane's own momentum still carries the plane straight up - temporarily going backwards.  

It is possible that a high power-to-weight-ratio modern stunt plane could do this, but I'm not sure about a 109.  I can't rule out that it truly is a realistic skill shot though. 

I just know what it "looks" like from the receiving end. 

 

That said, I have no problem with the idea that the 109 has a hand wheel for the level stabilizer that can - and I'm sure, was - adjusted with the left hand while the pilot used the control stick with his right.  I simply do think that both axes being able to be combined onto 1 axis, there is an exploit to be had.  

 

1 hour ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

I don't think he is right. There is no axis for Fw190 stab trim. It has separate key buttons for stab trim up and down. You could map an axis to be that button, just like for any other trim on any other plane, but it still acts like a button and not an axis. At least on Fw190 A3.

 

Kemp is correct.  The 190 has no axis for the stabilizer.  I guess that you would have to use your joystick software to convert it to an axis or JoyToKey it somehow.

Edited by =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

can only "report a bigfoot sighting" myself when I say that I have seen 109s go full 90 degrees upward vertical and flip around 180 degrees in less than 2 seconds, point straight down and shoot accurately

 

I see nothing in this description to indicate that stab trim and joystick pitch were on the same axis, but his ability to shoot accurately is indicating strongly against it. 

You realize that if these controls are on separate axis, you could choose to move them simultaneously or separately, as you choose, but if they are on the same axis, the slower trim wheel would still keep turning and moving the plane's attitude, even after you had stopped moving your joystick, thus making you less accurate? Another thing, whatever pitch+trim setting you could get with the controls on the same axis, you could get from the controls on two separate axis. On the other hand, having these two axis mapped together would take away some possibilities compared to having them on separate axis. So as a summary, there is no benefit of mapping these things on the same axis, it just takes away some of your options and makes you less accurate.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp

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I've had this conversation with BBQ before I think.  I don't see why anyone would utilize an "exploit" like this, and my argument Kemp, was very much as yours appears to be - that there would be no point to it, and that it would in fact, be a detriment to controlling the plane.  I challenged my audience at that time do reproduce the exploit and demonstrate their newfound "acedom".  I don't recall seeing a response to my suggestion.  I don't want to pick on BBQ; and if there is something exploitable there it should be nerfed.  I absolutely agree with that.

I have played other online sims where this can be exploited, and it is detrimental to play in that example as an exploit, but in this particular simulator, with the fidelity it shows, I doubt it could be done as described.

Tell you what though, I will try an offline sortie against some AI, and see if I can exploit trim on pitch, and report back.  o7

It just might not be right away as I have guests at the moment.  I invite others to do the same and report back.  If this isn't the right place to do it, then maybe a separate thread can put this issue to bed.  Thanks for letting me participate in the discussion.

 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

 

Tell you what though, I will try an offline sortie against some AI, and see if I can exploit trim on pitch, and report back.  o7

 

 

 

Just did this.  Here's my take on it:   

 

1.) Using combined axes: 

It certainly is doable and more stable than one might think. There is a certain amount of acceleration loss it seems, but it's made up for by being able to sustain turns much closer to stall speed for longer.  If you've ever flown planes in IL-2 '46 that have no trim settings - the type where the faster you go, the more the pilot must bench press the stick - you can do this without much adjustment.  Gunnery suffers from countering the constant nose-up disposition of the plane, but it is do-able.

 

2.) Combat flying with leaving trim in cruise setting and only using stick:  Plane stays stable with less counter-input required, but degrees-per-second turning suffers.  Sustained turns become too unstable about 30-50kph faster than method 1. Acceleration is also better with less drag on the control surfaces.  

 

3.)  Proper and intended technique - Left hand (in cockpit) controls pitch stabilizer, Right hand controls flight stick:  Offers the best of both worlds as it can be adjusted accurately from moment to moment.  Requires practice and a separate axis for the player's control scheme (HOTAS).  

 

Conclusion:  

 

Method 1.)  Offers turning and low speed stability advantages.  Most possibly benefits players without a separate key-binding method or axis control.  Not hard to adapt to. Expect to get tired of having to hold the stick forward constantly in level flight.

 

Method 2.)  Certainly doable. Does somewhat hamper certain performance aspects of the 109, but tactics can be adapted easily.

 

Method 3.)  In the right hands, this is absolutely F===ing deadly.  It also appears to be the in-cockpit setup and functionality the RL engineers intended.  Practice, practice, practice - Highly recommended.  In this case,  "Works as intended" can not be faulted.

 

edit:  That said, planes - such as the Yak - with similar control method, should also be allowed to use it with the proper axis bindings in the controls menu. 

edit 2:  IMO dual-binding the axes for method 1 should still be removed from the sim.

 

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to correct myself. 

Edited by =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ
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Lol "in the right hands" - it isn't working well for me now, and it's setup the way it should be, but I do have my trim mapped to a trim hat on the stick and not on the throttle as you recommend.  Thanks for doing this MBBQ.   I'll report back hopefully later this evening.

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40 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Lol "in the right hands" - it isn't working well for me now, and it's setup the way it should be, but I do have my trim mapped to a trim hat on the stick and not on the throttle as you recommend.  Thanks for doing this MBBQ.   I'll report back hopefully later this evening.

 

I have the same type of setup.  It works best for me to have the thumb wheel on my X-52pro set up for RPM controls on VVS planes.  

 

I think the key for the left + right hand method is to not overdo it.  Need a little extra to get over the top of a near-stall loop?   Don't pull back more - Adjust the trim up a few %.   Setting up a close range bounce that will blast their tail wheel through their front windscreen but the nose is raising too fast?  Don't push the stick forward - adjust the trim down a few %.  

 

Keep in mind that part of over-pulling the stick in a turn is due to countering the stabilizer down trim that's been treated as a "set it and forget it" thing. 

 

I also think that this is the key to why planes that are factually more unstable on the VVS side need to be able to be operated like this as well.   

I'd surely find a way to adapt my current binding setup if this was the case.  

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Perhaps with joytokey or other software might do the trick?  Have you tried that?  Personally I can't yet, but I will keep you posted.

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I have pitch trim up/down, fw-190 adjustable stabilizer up/down, and adjustable stabilizer axis all mapped to joystick pov hat up/down. Keeps it simple for me regardless of plane type flown.

 

I don't think I would benefit from mapping any of these to an axis as doing so doesn't negate the hard coded rate of adjustment. Perhaps the tactile feedback from joystick axis position could be useful but lacking that I fly with HUD technical information on.

 

When I started out I never trimmed my aircraft. Since that time I've discovered that neglecting pitch trim is just as bad as neglecting side slip. Both are vitally important to getting the most from an aircraft's performance when outside of optimal cruise parameters.

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I am using a trim wheel for the 109, it is for me the best solution, as it is the nearest to RL.

On a side note. Where does cheating start? Having the trim on the same axis as elevator? Isn't the trim or whatever on the stick or throttle the same cheating, as it allows you to have your hands all the time on the stick and the throttle? The pilots back then didn't have HOTAS, they had to reach somewhere in the cockpit and move levers or press buttons, that were not on their sticks and throttles. So where does cheating start?

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I think there should be a server setting that defects full size authentic cockpit mockups with force feedback trim wheels. 😬

  • Haha 1

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Until we all have real Warbirds and ammo, we're all cheating. :biggrin:

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

I am using a trim wheel for the 109, it is for me the best solution, as it is the nearest to RL.

On a side note. Where does cheating start? Having the trim on the same axis as elevator? Isn't the trim or whatever on the stick or throttle the same cheating, as it allows you to have your hands all the time on the stick and the throttle? The pilots back then didn't have HOTAS, they had to reach somewhere in the cockpit and move levers or press buttons, that were not on their sticks and throttles. So where does cheating start?

 When I first joined BoS, it was kind of "taught" to me that double-binding was one of the exploits available to the 109 pilots.  30 minutes of QMB and messing with settings was all it took to change my mind that the way it's meant to work - no double-binding - is the most effective method.  

 

Yes. We, as gamers, certainly do have the luxury of using and configuring our controls as we like.  I get that "So where does the cheating start?" is a rhetorical question, so I'm going to destroy grammar etiquette and answer a question with a question.  "What would Zaphod Beeblebrox do?"   

Edited by =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ

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8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

... where does cheating start?

 

Not playing with real bullets. ;)

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2 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Not playing with real bullets. ;)

Yeah, I tried it, but it is really expensive to always buy a new TV.:P

  • Haha 3

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