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Do the aircraft fly properly?

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Posted (edited)
On 7/28/2019 at 10:53 AM, Go_Pre said:


While your experience is a welcome addition, the “real pilot here” is a bit elitist. It’s probably not at all your intention to imply this, but you are 1) not even close to the only “real” pilot with experience in high performance aircraft on this forum / in this thread and 2) undermining and invalidating the posts of others who didn’t start their post by listing their experience. We’ve all had the pleasure of watching your videos and reading past posts, so don’t worry, we’re familiar with your flying resume. 

Sorry man just trying to help  here, nothing can be posted without someone complaining nowadays.

Its just my personal opinion of the sim and feel of flight nothing else.

I said real pilot because I can compare  the feel of flight to a real airplane, what is wrong with that?

 

Tomorrow I have a friend who has 2,000 hrs in a P51, had a P47, a P40 , a Corsair, and a Wildcat.

He is going to come stay at my place , fly and test Il2 in my PC in VR, was planning on filming this and show the impressions.

 

Should I just keep this experience to myself to avoid being "elitist" ? 

Maybe my friend's opinion  with thousands of hrs flying warbirds, which many of those are mock dogfighting has no value either.

 

Edited by II./JG77_motoadve
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2 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Sorry man just trying to help  here, nothing can be posted without someone complaining nowadays.

Its just my personal opinion of the sim and feel of flight nothing else.

I said real pilot because I can compare  the feel of flight to a real airplane, what is wrong with that?

 

Tomorrow I have a friend who has 2,000 hrs in a P51, had a P47, a P40 , a Corsair, and a Wildcat.

He is going to come stay at my place , fly and test Il2 in my PC in VR, was planning on filming this and show the impressions.

 

Should I just keep this experience to myself to avoid being "elitist" ? 

Maybe my friend's opinion  with thousands of hrs flying warbirds, which many of those are mock dogfighting has no value either.

 


Take it easy. I was very cordial in my feedback to you. To counter what you said, apparently you can’t offer constructive criticism without people becoming emotional “nowadays.” 
 

There’s nothing elitist / boastful about posting someone else’s impressions. Feel free, I’m sure everyone here would love to read / watch it. 
 

I’ll try to state my point again, and perhaps you can understand it this time before you post. When you lead off a post with “real pilot here,” what are you implying about everyone else who has posted? Think about it. 

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This is an open forum so against my better judgement I'm just going to jump right in here even though I'm sure to regret it.

 

31 minutes ago, Go_Pre said:


Take it easy. I was very cordial in my feedback to you.

 

Everyone has an opinion and I humbly opine that what you said was neither cordial nor called for. I was a bit shocked, but passed it off as just another cringe-worthy moment on the internet.

 

36 minutes ago, Go_Pre said:

When you lead off a post with “real pilot here,” what are you implying about everyone else who has posted?

 

Just another unwanted opinion o' mine but I don't think it implies anything about anyone at all. Just a statement of fact about the speaker's prior experience relating to the subject matter, clear and concise, nothing implied. Though I do see where you're trying to go with this, but to be clear he did not state that his opinion was better than anyone else's. Just the facts.

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41 minutes ago, Go_Pre said:


Take it easy. I was very cordial in my feedback to you. To counter what you said, apparently you can’t offer constructive criticism without people becoming emotional “nowadays.” 
 

There’s nothing elitist / boastful about posting someone else’s impressions. Feel free, I’m sure everyone here would love to read / watch it. 
 

I’ll try to state my point again, and perhaps you can understand it this time before you post. When you lead off a post with “real pilot here,” what are you implying about everyone else who has posted? Think about it. 

Real pilot here means I am comparing the feel of flight in the sim  to a real plane, sorry if that offends anyone.

That does not mean my opinion is more important , or others are crap, its a different perspective to take into account, just trying to help by comparing my real flying world experience that is all.

 I never in my post implied that all other opinions are crap.

Dont be soo sensitive man.

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3 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Tomorrow I have a friend who has 2,000 hrs in a P51, had a P47, a P40 , a Corsair, and a Wildcat.

He is going to come stay at my place , fly and test Il2 in my PC in VR, was planning on filming this and show the impressions.

 

Should I just keep this experience to myself to avoid being "elitist" ? 

Maybe my friend's opinion  with thousands of hrs flying warbirds, which many of those are mock dogfighting has no value either.

 

 

Yes please!

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A pitty the p-51 isn't yet available for your friend to test in IL-2.

 

If you get the chance, please ask him about the huge amount of elevator trim required for instance to land the P-40 E in IL.2 GB... I hit 100% "tail-heavy" trim most of the time... and find it really weird...

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Real pilot here means I am comparing the feel of flight in the sim  to a real plane, sorry if that offends anyone.

That does not mean my opinion is more important , or others are crap, its a different perspective to take into account, just trying to help by comparing my real flying world experience that is all.

 I never in my post implied that all other opinions are crap.

Dont be soo sensitive man.


You still aren’t understanding. Is English not your native language? That’s not meant to be insulting; I seriously think something is lost here. 
 

Before you posted, the following “real pilots” posted:

 

Jcomm

Dakpilot

LuseKofte

myself 

 

I’m probably missing a few more; I'm just not sure who else. 
 

The issue I had is that when someone reads this thread who doesn’t have real-world flying experience, they’re going to think your post in this thread is the end-all, be-all. 
 

I get it, not everyone agrees with me. As I said, it was constructive criticism. Take it or leave it.
 

I never said I was offended. And based off your temper-tantrum like responses, I’d say you’re the only one who’s sensitive here. It’s obvious that you are in no way receptive to what I’m saying, so let’s just move along. 
 

39 minutes ago, Niner said:

This is an open forum so against my better judgement I'm just going to jump right in here even though I'm sure to regret it.

 

 

Everyone has an opinion and I humbly opine that what you said was neither cordial nor called for. I was a bit shocked, but passed it off as just another cringe-worthy moment on the internet.

 

 

Just another unwanted opinion o' mine but I don't think it implies anything about anyone at all. Just a statement of fact about the speaker's prior experience relating to the subject matter, clear and concise, nothing implied. Though I do see where you're trying to go with this, but to be clear he did not state that his opinion was better than anyone else's. Just the facts.


See further explanation above. You’re always free to disagree, but I personally think calling my post “[un]called for” and “cringe worthy” and stating you were “shocked” as a result seems like a bit of an overreaction. 
 

Am I totally off here? 

Edited by Go_Pre
Cell phone autocorrect, merged post spacing
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18 minutes ago, Go_Pre said:

Am I totally off here? 

 

not totally...  maybe a little, tho..

 

i had a very similar reaction to Niner's; i get it,  it rubbed u the wrong way but still..

 

maybe just move along?

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2 hours ago, Go_Pre said:


You still aren’t understanding. Is English not your native language? That’s not meant to be insulting; I seriously think something is lost here. 
 

Before you posted, the following “real pilots” posted:

 

Jcomm

Dakpilot

LuseKofte

myself 

 

I’m probably missing a few more; I'm just not sure who else. 
 

The issue I had is that when someone reads this thread who doesn’t have real-world flying experience, they’re going to think your post in this thread is the end-all, be-all. 
 

I get it, not everyone agrees with me. As I said, it was constructive criticism. Take it or leave it.
 

I never said I was offended. And based off your temper-tantrum like responses, I’d say you’re the only one who’s sensitive here. It’s obvious that you are in no way receptive to what I’m saying, so let’s just move along. 
 


See further explanation above. You’re always free to disagree, but I personally think calling my post “[un]called for” and “cringe worthy” and stating you were “shocked” as a result seems like a bit of an overreaction. 
 

Am I totally off here? 

LOL I get it now (English is not my native language BTW) you felt it was offensive to you the other pilots that posted, when I wrote real pilot here , like saying none of the others fly as much or are as good or some of that sort, which would be very childish to say.

Not my intention at all, what I wanted to say was I fly real planes, simmers want to hear from real pilots when talking about feel of flight, I know I did  before I became a pilot, thats all. 

Peace!

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Posted (edited)

Mea-culpa too...

 

Thinking about the point in Go_Pre's post I sort of agree with he's view, and why ?

 

Well, not implying this is the motivation of anyone who uses this sort of tag - "as a real pilot" -  I have to admit that I 99% of the time stamp it in a  thread, uselessly trying to support my "evidences" with a supposed acquired experience, when in fact my RL experience is after all not a factor when the subject is the analysis of a flight simulation software and the way it models flight dynamics having in mind that it's users are going to be interacting with it through various types of hardware controllers, most of which aren't even close to being considered adequate, and even more having in mind, in my particular case, that I only fly gliders !!! Ridiculous, I must admit 😕

 

It's indeed the kind of tag, I use to somehow - uselessly - try to give more weight to my view... and it's after all, and most of the time, even if we don't want to admit it, some kind of "need for recognition", and not in it's most pure intent, but rather in a much more - useless - pride-oriented mood.

 

I seldom read such tags from Dakpilot, didn't even notice LuseKoft, Go_Pre and many other for sure are/were owners of a pilot license. I do know, and somehow feel "jealous" about the fact that guys like Syn-Requiem, who is a dedicated user of IL-2 and a very cooperative member with he's instructional videos, fought for he's dream of becoming a professional pilot, took a hiatus from flight simulation, and is now flying for a job, fulfilling he's dream. Does he need to keep saying in his posts and / or youtubes, that he is now an ATPL ?  No....

 

So, and again not trying to apply the same interpretation to what makes motoadve, and myself, sometimes use these "being a pilot..." tag, and ehehe, I even try to - uselessly - emphasize it with that additional mention to "for more than ... years..." 😎,  I have to admit I do see the point of Go_Pre's post, and actually sympathize with he's view / hint. Most of the time when posting such tags, I'd better know, as some at these forums actually do know, how to present my arguments in a much more scientific, supported way - using physics, and particularly flight dynamics but also knowledge about flight simulation techniques and the particular features of the aircraft being modeled in this sim. Some guys are living encyclopedias of ww2 aircraft and armament!

 

Go_Pre's point fits beautifully to my mindset, when writing those tags - I have to acknowledge it!

 

Suggestion...:  Let's move on and continue to discuss the aspects we find, as simmers, which is exactly what we are around here and whenever discussing flight simulation games, and not trying to show our "credentials" but rather, try to present some sound / mathematical / scientific-based arguments to support our ideas, like some actually do around here - many times making me pick a pencil and a sheet of sheet of paper to try to better understand / reach what they're passing.

 

Edited by jcomm-il2
typos and "style" :-) - Portuguese here, so English not my native language...
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Posted (edited)

As a non-pilot (or unreal pilot?) I think it is terrific that there are so many current real pilots posting regularly here. They help us unreal pilots enormously. Being a real pilot does lend some authority to one's pronouncements about flight, and while I have been around a while and remember most of those who have talked about their real piloting experience, newer forum denizens might not.  So personally I think it is also helpful that they say that they are pilots.  

 

I say some authority, however, because one thing that has happened from time to time over the years on this forum is a real pilot saying "A is X: don't argue with me, I am a real pilot".  Then a few posts later, someone else chimes in with "A is not X: I am a real pilot too!"   This may be because they are talking about something that is inherently subjective, or because one pilot is generalizing from Plane Type 1 while the other flies Plane Type 2. See threads discussing Spitfire ground handling for a recent example. (No names, no pack drill). 

 

So just as us unreal pilots need some humility when discussing flight issues with real pilots, (as unreal engineers need some humility when discussing aerodynamics with real engineers), so everyone, including real pilots, needs some humility in recognizing that generalizing from one's own recent experience may be a mistake when talking about the aeroplanes of 75 to 100 years ago. 

 

So I hope you can all kiss and make up and continue to provide your insights. Just do not expect everyone to automatically believe your every assertion simply because you are real pilots.

Edited by unreasonable
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For me, the sensation of flight is a very personal experience and not as a whole transferrable to anyone else. The only data taken from that is ones personal sensation vs. expectation. This opposed to flying as such, which is a demanding and often relatively dangerous. For the latter, there are common rules while for the first it is thus up to each one of us.

 

For sims, for me the „experience of flight“ usually changes with changing input devices, but the better and more precise that is, the more you get a feeling of how an particular sim is actually performing. Comparing that to real aircraft is neither easy nor straight forward. The more closely the input devices are, the easier you can compare. Use a good yoke and you will feel at home right away in the real Cessna 172. In the real Spitfire, I require a vastly different input muscle than in the sim, hence the „feeling“ is very, very different. However, I can compare what I am struggling with control wise. I take it as a good sign if I notice certain peculiarities in control that manifest themselves as an issue are alike in the sim and the real aircraft, despite possible discrepancies at the outside the performance envelope. This is what for instance pleasantly surprised me with our sim Spitfires and the real ones, besides that power/performance combinations matched within reading precision. (You‘ll hear and smell before you see...)

 

As I find this feeling of flight to be an immediate personal sensation, I really recommend anyone interested in aviation to simply go and rent planes of interest. They are available to you with pilots, you just come with cash and take your pick. Your budget determining your pick. Most pilots will give you stick time at some point. Like this, you can try many different aircraft. Flying can be very, very expensive, but if you just have to pay for the hour, a surprising number of types can be available to you. You don‘t need to be a pilot at all to get some stick time in a fancy aircraft. A friend of mine, he likes to fly Helicopters. But he holds no license for it, as he simply wouldn‘t have the time to fly as much as required. So he just rents the choppers along with the pilot for dual. He started with renting Robinsons and over the years they got to know him where he rents the choppers. He kept log for himself and by now they give him stick time on the twin jet choppers. It is much more important to be an alive pilot than a great pilot. Having someone along who knows what he‘s doing is just grand. It will probably make your spouse happy too. My take is, never to think of flying as elitist. It is ok if you just fly one hour per year if that one hour gives you joy.

 

PS: This works with „great cars“ as well. You don‘t want to own a sports car that you  just spent a weekend on the track with... ;) 

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On 7/30/2019 at 8:46 PM, II./JG77_motoadve said:

LOL I get it now (English is not my native language BTW) you felt it was offensive to you the other pilots that posted, when I wrote real pilot here , like saying none of the others fly as much or are as good or some of that sort, which would be very childish to say.

Not my intention at all, what I wanted to say was I fly real planes, simmers want to hear from real pilots when talking about feel of flight, I know I did  before I became a pilot, thats all. 

Peace!


I’m glad it makes sense now, and I’m fluent in exactly 0 other languages...so respect for that! 

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I've always felt comparing actual aiplanes to representations in sims a little off. It just doesn't feel the same: There's no seat of the pants in sims. There's no real force involved*. You can't get sick in sims by being thrown around in thermals or getting disoriented the first time your head bangs off the canopy when flying an airplane with some roll-rate worth mentioning.

You can very hardly get vertigo in sims (it really is surprising, when it kicks in for real the first time - I think Xplane does a very good job of simulaing "black hole approaches").

 

*When I checked out in the C 210, I was already drenched after taxiing to the holding point. The rudder took THAT much force taxiing around (that and Florida weather)!

Once airborne, I found the C 210 to handle much the same way that Zach describes the Spit: Heavy but sensitive controls: Don't get way out of trim, EVER!

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On 8/24/2019 at 2:49 PM, Bremspropeller said:

 getting disoriented the first time your head bangs off the canopy when flying an airplane with some roll-rate worth mentioning.

 

So this is why i instinctively lean my head to the side of the virtual canopy in anticipation of aggressive roll....

 

Instinctual reflexes sure are amazing. :biggrin:

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lol I read all the "Im a real pilot" thing and it made me laugh a little.

 

It would be nice to say if you really flown a WWII warbird tho, an original one (not with a newer engine).

Because I dont think my 80hrs experience in C-150 give any authority to judge a 109 G-2 (or whatever plane from this game) FM, (but I will complain if I feel FM feels wrong to me anyways).

 

I know that discussion ended more than 3 months ago, but that's something that appears in forums from time to time so whatever 🤓

 

And sorry to keep the off topic going

 

To counter the off topic:

I feel the wobble too much softer now with the last patches. I feel it specially with 109s tho, I would say almost exclusively when flying them.

Edited by ME-BFMasserME262
grammar mistakes

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Well then, an explanation and possible fix may have been unearthed! 

 

Here's what it's all about:  This problem also affects X-Plane, and here is what's going on:

 

 

This is a thread all about it:  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/54641-delayed-wash-and-the-woobling-thing/

 

I honestly believe this is indeed what we've been experiencing all along. Just as it does in X-Plane, this same cause could easily be yielding the same effects in this series.

 

Edited by 19//Moach
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On 12/4/2019 at 1:30 AM, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

lol I read all the "Im a real pilot" thing and it made me laugh a little.

 

It would be nice to say if you really flown a WWII warbird tho, an original one (not with a newer engine).

Because I dont think my 80hrs experience in C-150 give any authority to judge a 109 G-2 (or whatever plane from this game) FM, (but I will complain if I feel FM feels wrong to me anyways).

 

I know that discussion ended more than 3 months ago, but that's something that appears in forums from time to time so whatever 🤓

 

And sorry to keep the off topic going

 

To counter the off topic:

I feel the wobble too much softer now with the last patches. I feel it specially with 109s tho, I would say almost exclusively when flying them.

 

Well, in my very little Time in Motorplanes, I have noticed that Rudders/Vertical Stabs have come a looooooooooooooooong Way.

 

If I compare that Casa/Bücker I got a short Spin on, but enough to get somewhat of a Feel for, it feels almost scarily Wayward when compared to a 152 or our Job-15.

In a modern Motorplane you basically don't have to worry about Coordinating anymore, not really. But if you don't actively Coordinate these old Birds you end up in a Sideslip.

Considering that Planes like the 109 had Rudders of only slightly larger Size at 4 times the Mass, I'm not surprised the ingame Models handle as they do, especially at low Speeds.

 

Also considering my favourite Plane at the Moment, the K-13, when you drop her Speed to best Glide, she will also Oscillate and become Wayward and Floaty. Any Input has some delay before anything happens and needs to be well Coordinated in Advance.

 

 image.png.f391e144a2c3042b229ca88a536ce280.png

image.png.dc6e01400855e45ca423368d80598ed6.png

 

image.png.5d00e7d9f389c1e5d16462a19678ae95.png

 

HnqzEzf.jpg

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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5 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

 

Well, in my very little Time in Motorplanes, I have noticed that Rudders/Vertical Stabs have come a looooooooooooooooong Way.

 

If I compare that Casa/Bücker I got a short Spin on, but enough to get somewhat of a Feel for, it feels almost scarily Wayward when compared to a 152 or our Job-15.

In a modern Motorplane you basically don't have to worry about Coordinating anymore, not really. But if you don't actively Coordinate these old Birds you end up in a Sideslip.

Considering that Planes like the 109 had Rudders of only slightly larger Size at 4 times the Mass, I'm not surprised the ingame Models handle as they do, especially at low Speeds.

 

Also considering my favourite Plane at the Moment, the K-13, when you drop her Speed to best Glide, she will also Oscillate and become Wayward and Floaty. Any Input has some delay before anything happens and needs to be well Coordinated in Advance.

 

 image.png.f391e144a2c3042b229ca88a536ce280.png

image.png.dc6e01400855e45ca423368d80598ed6.png

 

image.png.5d00e7d9f389c1e5d16462a19678ae95.png

 

HnqzEzf.jpg

I like the look fo the glider...

Man I want to try gliders so hard, sad they are really far from home

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