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Gamington

Bobp new bombers later ?

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Or will we just be using the one's we have ? Im sure this has been asked before my apologies, but it got me thinking wont bomber pilots be at a slight disadvantage if the older ones are in use or will there be ai controlled ones?

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There will be an AI B-25 for the initial release. 

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1 hour ago, Gamington said:

Or will we just be using the one's we have ? Im sure this has been asked before my apologies, but it got me thinking wont bomber pilots be at a slight disadvantage if the older ones are in use or will there be ai controlled ones?

 

There aren't really any bombers in the aircraft list. As Luke points out, there's an AI B-25D (that the team hopes to make flyable later) that is coming out and is part of the aircraft set for Bodenplatte. These B-25Cs and Ds were used by the RAF 2nd TAF for tactical support including attacking targets like rail yards and transportation hubs. The other bombers in the USAAF 9th Air Force and RAF 2nd TAF included limited numbers of B-26s, A-20G and J/Boston Mark III/IV and a few other types mixed in but those are the main ones.

 

This part of the air war wasn't really fought by bombers but rather fighter-bombers. For the Luftwaffe, most Stuka squadrons converted to FW190F-8s (which we have under the A-8 modifications list) and most bomber squadrons converted to the Me262. For the Allies it was the P-47 and the Typhoon that carried out a lot of the ground attacks although nearly every fighter in both the 9th AF and the 2nd TAF was used for ground attack duties.

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As a mud-mover and known bomber aficionado I still harbour some slight disappointment that there were no proper bombers in the BoBP roster, though it is in practicality tempered by the P-38 and Me262. There is some hope though, as has been mentioned above the B-25 has a decent chance of being made flyable in the future, and since all the work has been made on the Jumo 004 engines already, there's also a chance (a HOPE) for the Arado Ar 234 jet bomber as a collector's airplane. It took part in famed raids during the BoBP timeframe and area and didn't have costly and time-consuming gunners, so it may well be a reasonably "cheap" yet attractive thing for the developers to make.

 

Who knows, though. I'll keep trucking in the ol' Heinkel. :)

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I’m very curious to find out if the AI B-25s will have a simplified FM that takes the pressure off the AI and allows them to operate in larger numbers.  Hopefully it would take some of the weight off the developers too.  

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16 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

no proper bombers

 

P-47 would like to remind you that it can carry more than half the load of a long range B-17!

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1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

P-47 would like to remind you that it can carry more than half the load of a long range B-17!

No it can't :nea:

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, InProgress said:

No it can't :nea:

 

B-17G 800mi missions max ordnance 4500lb

P-47D max ordnance 2500lb + 6x M2 "Bazooka" rockets

Edited by Talon_

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After last DD225 and news that we could maybe get higher vis ranges, something i belived they would never do as its bathering only small group of users, i see that anything is posible and maybe they even have on their todo list more AI bombers or even some tricks to make posible to have big formations of larger bombers not in game now and so on... so as long they keep making new DLCs to be able to make game inprovments from time to time anything is posible, even AI B-24 or B-17s :)

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

B-17G 800mi missions max ordnance 4500lb

P-47D max ordnance 2500lb + 6x M2 "Bazooka" rockets

Sure, 4 engine plane could only carry 2000kg bombs. Even he111 could take more. Where did you get that info from? B17 could take over 4000kg of bombs.

 

Ok, i see range. That does not really make any sense tho. Comparing bomb load of 1 plane to another but where you make some weird limitation that it must fly the longest way. With this logic P47 has 0kg load because it won't reach as far as B17. If you compare 2 things then on the same rules.

Edited by InProgress

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, InProgress said:

 Ok, i see range. That does not really make any sense tho. Comparing bomb load of 1 plane to another but where you make some weird limitation that it must fly the longest way. With this logic P47 has 0kg load because it won't reach as far as B17. If you compare 2 things then on the same rules.

 

Because it was the most common load for B-17s in the same timeframe & theater as our campaign.

Edited by Talon_

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P 47 isnt a bomber. That is the point. You can do as many in wol take a p47 bomb die and take a new one and you get as efficient as a bomber x4 

But people like me grin at that option. We want a bomber. 

Let me remind you that it was not me bringing it up. Just saying. Not even a p38 will replace a bomber. 

For me flying a p47 without max load in bombs is unheard off. And that makes it just as easy target as a bomber. Even more

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10 minutes ago, InProgress said:

And? It cleary shows more than 4000.

"B17 could take over 4000kg of bombs."

4000KG = 8818LB

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20 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Because it was the most common load for B-17s in the same timeframe & theater as our campaign.

Most common does not mean they could not take more.

 

12 minutes ago, Elem said:

"B17 could take over 4000kg of bombs."

4000KG = 8818LB

Official Boeing website:

https://www.boeing.com/history/products/b-17-flying-fortress.page

Armament 11 to 13 machine guns, 9,600-pound bomb load

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Not sure what the point is in quibbling here. It's simply an interesting comparison, if apples to oranges.

The Jug could carry over half of the load that the B-17 typically carried...and flew it right down the enemies' throat to boot.

Yes the B-17 could carry more...it was also a bomber with 4 engines.

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5 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I’m very curious to find out if the AI B-25s will have a simplified FM that takes the pressure off the AI and allows them to operate in larger numbers.  Hopefully it would take some of the weight off the developers too.  

I don't think so. Because in the interview on the Stormbirds blog there was at least this answer given by Daniel Tuseev:

Quote

Daniel: “Yes, we hope one day to have it player-controlled. Due to this strategic objective we’re developing its external 3D model and physics model same as we do for all our player-controlled planes. So, after we will have release AI B-25 we only got to find occasion to develop interior for it. Of cause, its interior is a real complex thing, but we hope that one day we will find opportunity to create it.”

Source:https://stormbirds.blog/2019/02/12/part-2-an-interview-with-jason-williams-and-daniel-tuseev/

 

For me this at least implies that the damage and the flight model will be completed in advance on the standard of every other airplane and only the interior will be added later (hopefully).

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Well, I like going after the bombers thats why I was curious thanks for the info. Learn something new everyday about this stuff.

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1 hour ago, Big_Al_the_Allo said:

For me this at least implies that the damage and the flight model will be completed in advance on the standard of every other airplane and only the interior will be added later (hopefully).

 

For me that means they build everything in detail as in the A20 except for the cockpits, which take most of the time. When they get spare time in the future, they build the cockpits and offer the B-25 as flyable plane.

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Doesn't the Mosquito carry the same bomb load as a B17? I read that in a book somewhere. Plus its twice as fast and only two engines.

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3 minutes ago, CDRSEABEE said:

same bomb load as a B17

Yes. Further, higher, and faster and with only two squishy meat control units. I would like a mosquito please. 

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6 minutes ago, CDRSEABEE said:

Doesn't the Mosquito carry the same bomb load as a B17? I read that in a book somewhere. Plus its twice as fast and only two engines.

 

4,000 pounds (1,800 kg)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito

 

vs.

 

  • Short range missions (<400 mi): 8,000 lb (3,600 kg)
  • Long range missions (≈800 mi): 4,500 lb (2,000 kg)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress

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13 minutes ago, CDRSEABEE said:

Doesn't the Mosquito carry the same bomb load as a B17? I read that in a book somewhere. Plus its twice as fast and only two engines.

 

Same as a P-47

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7 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I’m very curious to find out if the AI B-25s will have a simplified FM that takes the pressure off the AI and allows them to operate in larger numbers.  Hopefully it would take some of the weight off the developers too.  

 

This. Even if improving the B25's FM is left for a further moment, which I am sure nobody would really mind.

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3 hours ago, InProgress said:

Most common does not mean they could not take more.

 

Official Boeing website:

https://www.boeing.com/history/products/b-17-flying-fortress.page

Armament 11 to 13 machine guns, 9,600-pound bomb load


Maximum bomb loadout varies with the range required. 

A B-17 could not carry 9,000lbs of bombs and still haul it all the way to Berlin and back. The trade off was having a longer range with a smaller bomb load, and the smaller bomb load was compensated by having hundreds of individual aircraft hitting a target area. 

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I would love to see a heavy bomber but i think a medium would be easier to fit in the game.

 

Maybe they cal also add the Martin B-26 in the future 

 

B-26B_Flak_Damage.jpg

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I think they really have to be both smart and efficient with what they decide to do. I LOVE the B-25 (one of my very favorite aircraft of WWII) - but I would really like to see the B-26 sometime too. That would make huge sense if they do something like Italy - and allow backward integration...but I think it likely entirely depends up where they may be going next after BOBP - whether it's a venture to Pacific, a western European scenario, back to Russia...or Korea (hope not)...

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Posted (edited)

I was hoping for a P-38J-15 or -20 and a "Droop Snoot" modification, but it's going to be the rare J-25 (which wasn't modified).

As much as I would love to see the neglected B-26, the RAF Mitchell is the only level bomber of the Allies fitting the BoBP-map during the BoBP-timeframe. I'm looking forward to the AI-version and hope it will be turned into a collector plane.

Edited by =27=Davesteu
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The only bomber conversation I’m interested in is the Betty. Even if AI only.

 

I know flyable likely isn’t possible for lack of data, but I’m hopeful we have a reason to talk about it...meaning we’re PTO bound. Begins and ends there for me.

 

B-25J would be welcome too.

 

I’m ready for float planes too.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

The only bomber conversation I’m interested in is the Betty. Even if AI only. I know flyable likely isn’t possible for lack of data, but I’m hopeful we have a reason to talk about it...meaning we’re PTO bound.

I'd like to join that conversation! You will be pleased to know that the G4M is comparatively well covered in Japanese literature and it was evaluated by TAIU.
That said, the Ki-48 should be considered if they do something like New Guinea.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Heshima said:

I would love to see a heavy bomber but i think a medium would be easier to fit in the game.

 

Maybe they cal also add the Martin B-26 in the future 

 

B-26B_Flak_Damage.jpg

 

I've never seen that photo before. Heck of a lot of damage there!

 

IMHO I think aircraft like the B-25, B-26, Mosquito (FB and/or B), Ar234, and even Do217 are all theoretically possible types that fit the tactical theme of the series. I even think the Mosquito and Ar234 are good fits for nearer term seeing as the team only needs to build a single position for them as there are no turret positions that start doubling and tripling the effort.

 

If it makes sense to and its helpful, I could see the team trying to find bombers and bomber models that use the same type of turret. Jason alluded to this (and asked for references and resources so if everyone out there really wants bombers - start digging stuff up) and I think it makes a heck of a lot of sense. Is it the same Martin powered turret on the A-20G and on the B-26? Was it also on the B-25? I can see building up not just aircraft but some of the supporting infrastructure that might be at least partially dropped into other projects. If you don't have to rebuild everything every single time that would be helpful no doubt.

 

Just some thoughts.

Edited by ShamrockOneFive

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5 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

IMHO I think aircraft like the B-25, B-26, Mosquito (FB and/or B), Ar234, and even Do217 are all theoretically possible types that fit the tactical theme of the series.

The Do-217 wouldn't make much sense. The last large scale Luftwaffe bomber raid happened on 19 September 1944 and targeted Eindhoven. Afterwards most bomber units were disbanded or converted to fighters or jet bombers. The few remaining units in the west not equipped with the Me-262 and Ar-234 mostly flew Ju-88s and Ju-188s that were used in harassment attacks. During this time most Ju-88s were of the S-type, but there were still a sizeable number of Ju-88A4s. So Luftwaffe bomber fans can still use the Ju-88 from BoM in BoBP, although it doesn't have late-war modifications like the MG 131 instead of the two MG 81s.

 

Personally I hope we will one day get the Ju-87D5. Of course it would be more useful for the eastern front, but it was also used in the west by Nachtschlachtgruppen. The night missions flown by these units could be really interesting, especially if we get an Allied aircraft type that was also used as a night fighter.

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Posted (edited)
  • Only (detachments of) NF and PR Mosquito units were stationed within the BoBP-map's boundaries during the BoBP-timeframe
  • USAAF A-20G/J (later A-26) and RAF Havoc units were all stationed outside the BoBP-map's boundaries during the BoBP-timeframe
  • B-26 units were stationed outside the BoBP-map during the BoBP-timeframe*
    • *: 449 BS and 452 BS of 422 BG moved to Le Culot, Belgium, on 26 March and 31 March 1945, respectively (last days of the BoBP-timeframe)

 => The RAF Mitchell is the only level bomber of the Allies fitting the BoBP-map during the BoBP-timeframe

  • I. & II./LG 1 equipped with Ju 88 A-4 and S-3 operated sporadically within the BoBP-map, but they were stationed outside the map's boundaries*
    • *: I./LG 1 stationed in Hesepe for the first three days of the BoBP-timeframe
  • I./KG 66 equipped with Ju 88 S and Ju 188 E operated within the BoBP-map's boundaries, but it was a pathfinder-unit and for the most part stationed outside the map

=> The Ar 234 B-2 is the only (level) bomber of the Luftwaffe fitting the BoBP-map during the BoBP-timeframe

 

 

There are five stand-alone collector planes available in the shop right now. Five more types are very good options for BoBP:

  1. Mitchell Mk.II / B-25D
  2. Ar 234 B-2
  3. Typhoon Mk.Ib (late)
  4. P-61A/B
  5. Spitfire Mk.XIV

No need for unhistorical/not fitting collector aircraft.

 

 

4 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

Personally I hope we will one day get the Ju-87D5. Of course it would be more useful for the eastern front, but it was also used in the west by Nachtschlachtgruppen. The night missions flown by these units could be really interesting, especially if we get an Allied aircraft type that was also used as a night fighter. 

I'm neither supporting nor opposing the Ju 87 D-5, but in terms of gameplay it wouldn't really add anything to the upcoming Nachtschlachtgruppen campaigns. The Ju 87 probably isn't the most popular aircraft in the game and the D-3 AI is still incapable of conducting a proper dive-bombing run (not relevant for the NSGr.). Nevertheless, the BoBP Nachtschlachtgruppen campaigns should turn out to be interesting and I advocate a "Nocturnal equipment"-modification for the D-3.

The P-61 "Black Widow" would be a fitting adversary and is probably the only feasible option for a Western Front night fighter (and Allied intruder) campaign in BoX.

Edited by =27=Davesteu

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