Why Are Targets So Far Apart?

[SharpeXB]

I can never understand why. Why in mp missions are the targets spread out all over the map instead of clustered more? Spreading them out makes the chance of any combat between the opposing aircraft greatly less. Even with 84 players online they are spread so thin all over the map they’ll never see each other. Why? Is this some limitation of the mission builder or engine or just poor mission design?

[Garven]

Probably because guys hitting ground targets don't want to fly into an air-quake zone and die every sortie. 

[RedKestrel]

Plus clustered targets get wiped really fast when one side is heavily outnumbered. A few fighters provide cover for all the targets and then attackers hammer them basically unopposed.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, -332FG-Garven said:

Probably because guys hitting ground targets don't want to fly into an air-quake zone and die every sortie. 

How about having the fighters covering the bombers. Like actual action. Less fighters around the target means less of your own to cover you. Going lone wolf in a bomber isn’t a great idea. 

25 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Plus clustered targets get wiped really fast when one side is heavily outnumbered. A few fighters provide cover for all the targets and then attackers hammer them basically unopposed.

That still sounds better than empty skies and no action. What you’re describing sounds like an actual air war. 

 

So so the goal of spreading out the targets is to avoid having any combat action in the game. Well it’s certainly succeeding. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Garven]

54 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How about having the fighters covering the bombers. Like actual action. Less fighters around the target means less of your own to cover you. Going lone wolf in a bomber isn’t a great idea. 

Not always possible to herd cats and get cover, besides I don't have much trouble getting kills while flying fighters with the current missions available.  Reducing the size of the area targets are located reduces options for the bombers to pick less predictable routes to target and reduces the hunting aspect of flying fighters.  Its nice to be able to sneak into a target with a bunch of other guys and hit it and get out without being intercepted.  In other words you could say I enjoy the cat and mouse aspect of multiplayer.

 

Basically what you want is a canned hunt for fighters.

Edited June 2, 2019 by -332FG-Garven

[CountZero]

and after you spend some time on same misions youll see that targets are even to close

 

lone wolfing is not only for fighter guys, i guess you fly alone, why some bomber guy should not fly alone also, like other say mostly targets are spred so ga or bomber guys have a small chance to servive few atacks on targets, the way you can instantly see what object is destroyed by enemy player in chat and have server messages, they are at big disadvantage

 

if you play more youll start to see paterns and learn where to go to fined players even on small numbers or what player go for what target or fly in what area on maps, also you can always escort frendly bomber thats sure way to fined action fast, or pair up with guys on ts3.

 

lone wulf bombers are usealy first on server even when its not populated, then others come to hunt them, if targets are in one 40x40km area no one would be going for targets then as even with good cap or escort its not atractive to go where you know enemy is waiting for you, the way i see if no lone wulf bomber guys servers would be empty most of time

Edited June 2, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[SharpeXB]

There’s a balance which could be achieved. Right now you could orbit a target on WoL and not see anyone else for thirty minutes or longer. The messages you get about targets being attacked are so infrequent you can tell how little action is happening. 

Theres also the fact that many times the server is not full, making the sky even emptier. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by SharpeXB

[CountZero]

on wol targets are even closer grouped then on some other servers, when bomber hit target you can get message what target is hit 2min after it, but from chat (after devs alowed it in one of last updates) you can see exactly what object enemy is destroying and as on wol you have usealy one tank one af one arty one factory targets its easy to see whats being hit instantly by this. 

 

On wol you just need to go betwen closest bases and youll fined planty of airplanes, but because of short and bad vis ranges this game has maybe your missing all that, even on half full server its not hard to fined action on fast food server like wol.

Edited June 2, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[SharpeXB]

WoL targets are “close”? They’re ridiculously scattered IMO

it makes the game just appear unpopulated. I like playing online occasionally but more often realize it just isn’t a good use of my time. 

In this game you have a choice between silly air quake on Berloga and sheer boredom on WoL

It has to be possible to design missions which aren’t so extreme on either aspect. 

[CountZero]

from my expiriance wol is in middle or even closer to min distances betwen targets compared to other popular servers and you can get in fast df in no time if you wont to, if there is some target that is far away from front you can usealy disrigard it as probably briefing states destroy 4 out of 5 or something like that... flyt times are mostly 10-20min there, bombers go low alt to closest targets most of time... WoL is realy fast action.

 

Also if you dont wont to just hunt betwen closes bases sure way to fined anyone in WoL is go to factory or airfield objective for your side bombers to destroy, there is great chance enemy is covering it, thats 10-15min max for you to get to at 3-5km alt depending on airplane... also arty objectives are usealy hit first so thats good place to hunt.

 

 

[SharpeXB]

My only experiences on WoL are that it’s just vacant. Even the target areas. And it’s the only regularly populated server. Not much variety out there in this game. I’m sure it’s possible to design better missions. 

There was another server up the other night “Combat Box” which had a really well done map. 

[RedKestrel]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

My only experiences on WoL are that it’s just vacant. Even the target areas. And it’s the only regularly populated server. Not much variety out there in this game. I’m sure it’s possible to design better missions. 

There was another server up the other night “Combat Box” which had a really well done map. 

Knights of the Air, Combat Box And WOL are the big three. Knights has the farthest targets. They’re up all the time. Even on Kota I don’t have trouble finding action, just coordinate with your team and go where you’re needed and action will find you. Or take a ground attacker and stir up trouble. Combat Box has good server populations, but right now TAW is on so lots of people are playing on that server since it’s not always available.

 

anyway, in a real war you fly around for hours without seeing an enemy, and many sorties involved no combat at all. 

[CountZero]

i check and on wol in year time your awaradge time of sortie is 16min , thats normal for server like wol i dont know how it can get faster then that without being berloga with ground targets...but if you need even faster action then try action and tanks server if its still online that one has targets in 20km area... to me wol looks realy compact you realy cant miss enemys, but also for me 30min sorties are short ones, it seams for you thats considered extra longe ones... not every one plays same online so there has to be server what your looking for, question is is it populated when your online. 

[SharpeXB]

9 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Knights of the Air, Combat Box And WOL are the big three. Knights has the farthest targets. They’re up all the time. Even on Kota I don’t have trouble finding action, just coordinate with your team and go where you’re needed and action will find you. Or take a ground attacker and stir up trouble. Combat Box has good server populations, but right now TAW is on so lots of people are playing on that server since it’s not always available.

 

anyway, in a real war you fly around for hours without seeing an enemy, and many sorties involved no combat at all. 

I liked Combat Box. KOTA I never see populated. I’m in the US

as for teams and comms I never see anyone using Teamspeak so I’ve given up trying to use that. 

 

Sure real war war involved a lot of no contact flying. I can do that in single player career. 

[RedKestrel]

47 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I liked Combat Box. KOTA I never see populated. I’m in the US

as for teams and comms I never see anyone using Teamspeak so I’ve given up trying to use that. 

 

Sure real war war involved a lot of no contact flying. I can do that in single player career. 

Combat Box is probably your best bet for what you’re looking for. A lot of the missions have targets clustered more or less. Paravane, for example I never want for action over the north naval targets and the Tirpitz. There are three targets in close proximity there. 

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Combat Box is probably your best bet for what you’re looking for. A lot of the missions have targets clustered more or less. Paravane, for example I never want for action over the north naval targets and the Tirpitz. There are three targets in close proximity there. 

Yeah Combat Box has the right idea. Noticing how they had the missions done is what prompted me to post this. 

It shouldn’t be rocket science to design a good mission. Just place the targets where they will generate action and not out at the edges of the map. 

As for the bomber and attack aircraft, if there’s action then fighters would be encouraged to cover them as a way to find the enemy. 

[Sketch]

On 6/2/2019 at 11:33 AM, SharpeXB said:

It shouldn’t be rocket science to design a good mission. Just place the targets where they will generate action and not out at the edges of the map. 

 Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

[SharpeXB]

Combat Box has the right formula. It took 40 minutes of circling a target on TAW to get into action but only about 5 min on CB

And I was able to fly attack aircraft too without getting overwhelmed by fighters. 

 

The trouble with servers making making you fly too far and thinning out the players across the map is that all your hours online aren’t spent in combat they’re spent pointlessly circling and patrolling. That doesn’t do much for developing any skills, either at combat or spotting. You can’t develop skills at spotting when there’s nothing to spot. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Sketch]

Every post in this thread from you @SharpeXB, tells me you're looking for the Berloga server - where there is action all the time. You can really develop your skills there.

 

I'm glad Combat Box is working out for you, but like most server admins and mission designers, they may have a handful of missions that may not fill everyone's appetite. Therefore, they'll continue to make a variety of missions.

 

However, before you further insult mission designers, server admins, the IL-2 community, and sim enthusiasts; let me attempt to enlighten you. Part of the enjoyment of the sim, for some of us, is to fly around [pointlessly circling], patrol for enemy craft [when there is nothing to spot], and, as you stated, develop our skills as pilots. There's no need to take away from one to get more of the other; enjoy them all equally. It's the beauty of the game.

Edited June 3, 2019 by [TWB]Sketch
To many commas

[BraveSirRobin]

I’ve flown both WoL and Combat Box a lot.  There is very little difference in the distribution of targets.

[SharpeXB]

41 minutes ago, [TWB]Sketch said:

Every post in this thread from you @SharpeXB, tells me you're looking for the Berloga server - where there is action all the time. 

I’m looking for more realism ie full flights that involve takeoff landing patrolling etc. 

Berloga also is lacking, it could use a variety of map rotations and more than just two spawn points. It’s very unimaginative to simply run the same map over and over. Even a quick action sever should have some variety. RoF had better choices. 

Offering a critique is not “insulting”. But my opinion is many servers have not done a good job at creating an interesting mp environment. 

Keep in mind many times these servers are not full and 40 players spread all over one of these maps just doesn’t create good gameplay. 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Sketch]

Please make what you find ideal, and I'll happily join your server and then provide criticism. It's not rocket science after all... Right?

I'll even help you with mission building when you get to that point!

Edited June 3, 2019 by [TWB]Sketch

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, [TWB]Sketch said:

Please make what you find ideal, and I'll happily join your server and then provide criticism. It's not rocket science after all... Right?

I'll even help you with mission building when you get to that point!

It’s not hard. Just don’t scatter the targets across the entire map. 

[RedKestrel]

35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m looking for more realism ie full flights that involve takeoff landing patrolling etc. 

Berloga also is lacking, it could use a variety of map rotations and more than just two spawn points. It’s very unimaginative to simply run the same map over and over. Even a quick action sever should have some variety. RoF had better choices. 

Offering a critique is not “insulting”. But my opinion is many servers have not done a good job at creating an interesting mp environment. 

Keep in mind many times these servers are not full and 40 players spread all over one of these maps just doesn’t create good gameplay. 

 

Honestly, it sounds like you want it both ways. There’s no way to have realistic patrolling if all the targets are bunched up. Combat Box already has the targets close enough together that last night a five man squad hit and finished three targets within ten minutes or less, and i was able to land, spawn back in a fighter and catch them on the way out. There were a total of eight players on the server at the time and we managed to scrounge up some action.

 

The other factor is that when you get that many planes over an active cluster of target areas performance is going to drop like a stone, and aa causes even more problems. Berloga doesn’t have that problem because the map is utterly devoid of any ground units or targets. So there are limiting factors beyond how it plays. The spread out targets mitigate the issue somewhat.

[Alonzo]

The Combat Box maps are all available here: http://combatbox.net/en/maps/. (Actually except the newest one, I’m late on adding it).

 

Are any of these better / worse? How would you change them? Remember, you’re only allowed to use real airfields as bases, and industrial targets only usually look good in map areas where there is a pre-existing industrial thing. Same for rail yards. Shipping targets are more flexible.

 

How many players are are you designing for? If there are more or less players than this, how does it change your map design? 

 

You can add reporting ting to the map, either targets under attack, or simulated radar, or spotting zones to detect enemy aircraft. Which do you want to use, where, and why?

 

Each of these individual decisions is not rocket science, sure, but the combined complexity is significant. Mission design is hard. If you have suggestions for improvements I am 100% sure the map designers would appreciate constructive criticism.

[BraveSirRobin]

4 minutes ago, Alonzo_LW said:

 If you have suggestions for improvements

 

It sounds like he wants targets that are not too far apart.  But also not too close.  The rest is up to you.  Easy peasy.

[Alonzo]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

It sounds like he wants targets that are not too far apart.  But also not too close.  The rest is up to you.  Easy peasy.

 

Are you trolling? Because that response seems like trolling. It could be that you’re totally oblivious of how useless the reply is, but I’m going to go with trolling. ☹️

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, Alonzo_LW said:

 

Are you trolling? Because that response seems like trolling. It could be that you’re totally oblivious of how useless the reply is, but I’m going to go with trolling. ☹️

 

I'm trying to sum up what he wants.   If it sounds like trolling, that's probably because what he wants is basically impossible.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

It sounds like he wants targets that are not too far apart.  But also not too close.  The rest is up to you.  Easy peasy.

This. Some sort of balance has to be possible. 

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

This. Some sort of balance has to be possible. 

 

It's not.  You can't have a map that works well for all types of situations.  Some work well with lots of people on a map.  Others work well with fewer people.  You can't have both.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Alonzo_LW said:

The Combat Box maps are all available here: http://combatbox.net/en/maps/. (Actually except the newest one, I’m late on adding it).

 

Are any of these better / worse? How would you change them? Remember, you’re only allowed to use real airfields as bases, and industrial targets only usually look good in map areas where there is a pre-existing industrial thing. Same for rail yards. Shipping targets are more flexible.

 

How many players are are you designing for? If there are more or less players than this, how does it change your map design? 

 

You can add reporting ting to the map, either targets under attack, or simulated radar, or spotting zones to detect enemy aircraft. Which do you want to use, where, and why?

 

Each of these individual decisions is not rocket science, sure, but the combined complexity is significant. Mission design is hard. If you have suggestions for improvements I am 100% sure the map designers would appreciate constructive criticism.

The missions I’ve seen on Combat Box seem really good. They’re a balance of “full missions” style that involve all phases of flight without too much immediacy like a quick action server. 

Experiencing these missions is what prompted me to post this, it’s the best server I’ve seen come along to this game in years. 

5 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

It's not.  You can't have a map that works well for all types of situations.  Some work well with lots of people on a map.  Others work well with fewer people.  You can't have both.

Combat Box has a good balance. WoL and TAW seem designed as if 120 players are going to be on there all the time. 

[BraveSirRobin]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 

Combat Box has a good balance. WoL and TAW seem designed as if 120 players are going to be on there all the time. 

 

The balance on Combat Box is virtually the same as WoL.  But if you like CB better, fly on CB.  Problem solved.

[Sketch]

Since you didn't answer any of the questions posted by Alonzo with facts or examples (but instead with subjective anecdotal information); I'll go a step further... If you make the map @SharpeXB, I'll host the event and we can give your map a go.

 

To be fair, I'll give you enough time to make the map, and I'll assist you in anyway possible (except making the mission). I think about two weeks is enough time... Say, Wednesday, June 19th at 6pm EDT? That will give me time to start the invite process and we can host the event on that Saturday for everyone to try.

 

This way, we can see an example about what you believe is far but close, and it may enlighten you on how difficult a task it really is to make a mission. Which is only a small, small, very small part of hosting a server.

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by [TWB]Sketch

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, [TWB]Sketch said:

Since you didn't answer any of the questions posted by Alonzo with facts or examples (but instead with subjective anecdotal information); I'll go a step further... If you make the map @SharpeXB, I'll host the event and we can give your map a go.

 

To be fair, I'll give you enough time to make the map, and I'll assist you in anyway possible (except making the mission). I think about two weeks is enough time... Say, Wednesday, June 19th at 6pm EDT? That will give me time to start the invite process and we can host the event on that Saturday for everyone to try.

 

This way, we can see an example about what you believe is far but close, and it may enlighten you on how difficult a task it really is to make a mission. Which is only a small, small, very small part of hosting a server.

 

Now you’re trolling... ?

[CountZero]

atleast you found what you wonted, if all servers offerd same it would be borring enviroment

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

But if you like CB better, fly on CB.  Problem solved.

Agreed. 

[Sketch]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Now you’re trolling... ?

 

Actually, I'm not. I'm quite serious. I'll get the ball rolling for you with some groups and video tutorials....

 

 

This is the basics for creating your own objective, as well as the basic templates needed to make it as simple as possible.

 

 

First up, the templates used:

Play_Area_Template.zip 

Intermediate_Example_Objective_Template.zip

Damage Display Template.zip

On Attacked Message Template.zip

Input and Output Template.zip

Simple AAA Template.zip

 

Now for the videos... (Each of these videos are less than 10 minutes long... Many less than five minutes too!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you need further help, just PM me or message me on Discord. Good luck, and I can't wait to see what you make!

Edited June 4, 2019 by [TWB]Sketch
Added additional Templates

[Alonzo]

43 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I'm trying to sum up what he wants.   If it sounds like trolling, that's probably because what he wants is basically impossible.

 

Ah! Sorry my bad on that one, sarcasm detector failed. Heheh, I'm grinning about it now though. ?

[56RAF_Stickz]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m looking for more realism ie full flights that involve takeoff landing patrolling etc.

ok after  seeing this complaint, Combat box

6 missions, 4 deaths, 2 force landings. 2 deaths in a k4 in 11minutes total.

You need to polish a lot of realism before complaining about servers.

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

ok after  seeing this complaint, Combat box

6 missions, 4 deaths, 2 force landings. 2 deaths in a k4 in 11minutes total.

You need to polish a lot of realism before complaining about servers.

Are you saying that’s bad or good?

Do you prefer that or flying for 40 minutes without seeing another player in an 84 person game?