Sources of Historical information

[Flashy]

Hi all,

 

I often like to try and build missions that as as historically accurate as possible, but one issue I always run into is finding information on locations of combat forces at any point in time during a battle. It seems somewhat easier to find info on ground units, and I know of a few websites that do this, but finding detailed information on air forces seems much harder. I am specifically looking for a good source of things like:

• Which squadrons were operating at which airfield on a given day, and what were they flying?
• What kind of missions were they doing?
• What was the tactical situation on the ground on any given day? (this is easier to find, but still not easy)

 

Does anyone know of any websites that have this sort of information for any of the theaters of war we currently have in IL-2? (Stanligrad,Moscow, Kuban, Arras etc)? 

[yogy]

You can check my website for Rumania summer 1944 :).

 

What specific campaign do you plan to work on? Probably I can help you for the Eastern front.

[Juri_JS]

Years ago I posted a list of links for sites with historical information useful for mission builders:

http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?13030

 

Some of the links no longer work.

[Juri_JS]

16 hours ago, yogy said:

You can check my website for Rumania summer 1944 :).

 

What specific campaign do you plan to work on? Probably I can help you for the Eastern front.

Yogy, didn't you also host the information on the battle of Kursk collected by Pawel Burchard on your site? I can no longer find the link to this sources.

[MiloMorai]

For Luftwaffe units, http://www.ww2.dk/

[yogy]

@Juri_JS: Right, It is still there but not directly accessible. Here is the (super-useful!) link: 

http://www.yogysoft.de/pawel/_kursk/index.html

Haven't heard fromPawel for years, and still am very grateful for being allowed to hosts this  .

I could try to do similar stuff for the Crimea or the Kuban... but it is real work ?

Edited May 23, 2019 by yogy
spelling

[Flashy]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I'll dive into those links and see what I can find. 

 

19 hours ago, yogy said:

You can check my website for Rumania summer 1944 :).

 

What specific campaign do you plan to work on? Probably I can help you for the Eastern front.

 

Yep, definitely eastern front. I'm basically looking for info on U-2 operations around Moscow in late 1941. I have the following from the Po-2 profile from Aeroplane magazine Nov 2016:

 

"The most active combat use of
U-2s took place near Moscow in
late 1941. A group was formed
for operations around Mozhaisk
under the command of Col Sbytov.
It included a squadron of hastily
armed U-2s. From 8-19 October
they flew 508 sorties around
Yukhnov, inflicting considerable
damage to German troops."

 

This sounds like a nice idea for a (possibly MP FNBF mission), but I would also like to know what else was going on around there at the time (which other squads were active, what they were flying, etc). I will check your website and  the other sources and see what I can turn up. Thanks! 

[yogy]

Well... I think you will not get a lot of lovers for  night missions, better do some day stuff. But anyway - as you like it

 

What we talk about here is probably the central offensive 13.-25.12.1941? Soviet units (LBAP = light bomber regiment):

Central Front (left ground army, right air support)
1 Shock Army	711 LBAP
5 Army	705 LBAP
33 Army	606 LBAP
49 Army	686 LBAP
50 Army	611 LBAP
Directly attached to front	12, 31, 43, 46, 47, 77 SAD, 32, 38 BAS, 38 Recce

At that time, the Luftwaffe had absolutely no nightfighters or similar stuff, so no aerial opponents for night bombers.

 

SAD = Mixed Air Divisions.

PS: At that time, the Red Army was still very inflexible with their organization of aerial forces.

Edited May 24, 2019 by yogy
SAD

[Juri_JS]

21 hours ago, yogy said:

I could try to do similar stuff for the Crimea or the Kuban... but it is real work ?

This would be great. Such sources are extremely useful for mission builders.

 

When building DGen campaigns for Il-2 1946 I also used your planetable file a lot. It's still quite useful for Il-2 Great Battles.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Juri_JS

[Flashy]

18 hours ago, yogy said:

Well... I think you will not get a lot of lovers for  night missions, better do some day stuff. But anyway - as you like it

 

What we talk about here is probably the central offensive 13.-25.12.1941? Soviet units (LBAP = light bomber regiment):

Central Front (left ground army, right air support)
1 Shock Army	711 LBAP
5 Army	705 LBAP
33 Army	606 LBAP
49 Army	686 LBAP
50 Army	611 LBAP
Directly attached to front	12, 31, 43, 46, 47, 77 SAD, 32, 38 BAS, 38 Recce

At that time, the Luftwaffe had absolutely no nightfighters or similar stuff, so no aerial opponents for night bombers.

 

Hi Yogy,

 

thanks so much for this, it will be very useful! The goal of the mission is not necessarily only night missions, but rather to start the mission in the dark (early morning), so that there will be a night mission component at the beginning, after which it becomes a normal day mission.   Your point about there not being any LW night fighters at this time is well taken though. I have the following (again from Aeroplane nov 2016):

 

From 15-18
September 1942, German aircraft
made 67 attacks against airfields of
the 272nd Night Bomber Division;
of those, only 31 raids actually
targeted the operating airfields.
Furthermore, from 21-31 October,
the division’s main bases were
attacked by German bombers just
twice.

 

Do you perhaps have a source for the 272nd NBAP and the surrounding LW units? I have looked in the career mode in IL-2, but there is no mention of this unit at that time. I am presuming that we are talking about the Battle of Stalingrad for this, because all the other battles seem to be outside this time period?

 

 

[yogy]

I cannot believe that the airfileds of 272NBAD were of such major interest for the Germans, probably they were together with other forces of Soviet 8th Air Army. Here u go:

 

September 1942, Stalingrad Front
8 Air Army	206, 226, 228ShAD, 220, 268, 269, 287, 288 IAD, 270, 271, 272 NBAD, 23, 282, 633, 655 SAD, 8 RAP, 714 LBAP,...

ShAD = Sturmovik Divisions, IAD = Fighters, SAD = Mixed, LBAP = light bombers. 

 

Opposing forces = Richthofens Fliegerkorps VIII. Core units:

 

Tusow: Stab JG 3 (To Pitomnik 13.9.42)

Tusow: I/JG 3 (To Pitomnik 7.9.42)

Tusow: III/JG 3 (To Pitomnik 10.9.42)

Tusow: I/JG 53 (To Pitomnik 10.9.42, to Italy 28.9.42)

Froloff: I/ZG 1 (To Obliwskaja in 9.42)

Tatzinskaja: I/KG 51 Tatzinskaja: III/KG 51

(To Sarabus 28.9.42) Morosowskaja: Stab KG 55

Morosowskaja: I/KG 55 (To Saki 14.9.42)

Morosowskaja: II/KG 55

Morosowskaja: III/KG 55

Tanzinskaya: Stab KG 76

Tanzinskaya:I/KG 76

Tanzinskaya:II/KG 76

Tanzinskaya:III/KG 76

Morosovskaja: I/KG 100

Obliwskaya: Stab StG 2

Obliwskaya: I/StG 2

Obliwskaya: II/StG 2

Obliwskaya: Stab StG 77 (To Beloretschenkaja in 9.42)

Obliwskaya: II/StG 77 (To Beloretschenkaja in 9.42)

Tusow: Stab SchG 1 

Tusow: I/SchG 1

Tusow: II/SchG 1 (6., 7./SchG 1)

Tazinskaya: 4./SchG 1

Morosovskaya-West: 8./SchG 1 (To Tusow in 9.42)

Novocherkassk: Erg./SchG 1

 

For approximate numbersper type, you can go to the above mentioned planetable on my website.

[Flashy]

Thanks Yogy, you are amazing! 

 

Does your website also include which of those JW squadrons were nightfighters and which were "regular" squadrons? I am busy looking at your site and the planetable, but dont see what type of squadron these were?

[Juri_JS]

23 hours ago, Flashy said:

Does your website also include which of those JW squadrons were nightfighters and which were "regular" squadrons? I am busy looking at your site and the planetable, but dont see what type of squadron these were?

There were no regular Luftwaffe nightfighter units in the Stalingrad area, so some of the He-111s of KG 55 were used in this role. For example Arnold Döring from 8./KG 55 claimed three TB-3s over Stalingrad in one night. Single aircraft of the unit also flew harassment attacks against enemy airfields during the night.

[Flashy]

1 minute ago, Juri_JS said:

There were no regular Luftwaffe nightfighter units in the Stalingrad area, so some of the He-111s of KG 55 were used in this role. For example Arnold Döring from 8./KG 55 claimed three TB-3s over Stalingrad in one night. Single aircraft of the unit also flew harassment attacks against enemy airfields during the night.

 

He-111's? Wow, I had no idea they used those as night "fighters", thanks! I would have thought the bf-110 squadrons would have been the default choice for night fighters..

 

[Juri_JS]

2 minutes ago, Flashy said:

 

He-111's? Wow, I had no idea they used those as night "fighters", thanks! I would have thought the bf-110 squadrons would have been the default choice for night fighters..

 

The first Bf-110 nightfighter unit on the eastern front 10.(NJ)/ZG 1 only became active in early 1943 in the Kerch area. Earlier improvised nightfighter missions in the east were mostly flown by aircraft from bomber units.

[yogy]

Basically I did not distinguish between day- & night-units. Fighters "only" flew daymissions, bombers shifted more and more to the night later in the war. By 1944, day-missions were very risky for bombers, that's why even the workhorse of the Eastern Front (Ju-87) got pulled out more and more between summer 1943 and end of 1944.

 

BTW: German nightfighters even used ground-based RADAR in 1943, pretty interesting actually that such sophisticated stuff went on in the East.