Spitfire strange elevator.

[KoN_]

Chasing a 109 and if he pulls up and I follow my spit goes way over the top . What is wrong with the elevator it's way way too sensitive and the ground loops on ice snow is just crazy . Lol 

i used tobe able to fly spit nice and stable but now I just can not fly this thing . Just little push and pulls throw  me off aiming . Stopped flying it . Jump in Russain planes any of them and it's plane sailing . Lol . I mean so easy to fly . 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Con

[AndyJWest]

Your complaints about the elevator should be addressed to R. J. Mitchell (or his ghost), since that's how it actually was:

 

Quote

This aeroplane has sensitive elevators and, if the control column is brought back too rapidly in a manoeuvre such as a loop or steep turn, stalling incidence may be reached and a high-speed stall induced.

https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/world-war-two-in-western-europe/battle-of-britain/flying-a-spitfire/

 

As for ground loops, I think the consensus on this forum is probably that they are a little overdone. Keeping a bit of throttle until you've almost stops helps maintain rudder control, but otherwise, practice. Or pretend it didn't happen. You don't have to apologise to AI groundcrew. 

[Blackhawk_FR]

16 hours ago, Con said:

Chasing a 109 and if he pulls up and I follow my spit goes way over the top .

? Could you be more precise? 

 

 

Just my personal 2 cents about elevator: Real Spitfire is well-known to be very maneuverable. But in the game, compare to other aircrafts, it's so much more maneuverable/sensitive that it's feeling strange to me. In other words, is it normal our Spitfire MkIX has a so different behavior from other aircrafts...? 

But as I never flew a real Spitfire it's nothing more than an opinion. 

 

However for sure, there is an inconsistency with rudder and elevator (especially at low speed). I've opened a topic about that: 

To summary: 

 

- At full power, elevator loose its efficiency at very low speed (unable to stall the aircraft with full back stick, while you can do it with other aircrafts). Without power, we have more elevator authority, which is even more strange (less relative wind on elevator and more maneuverability??). I'm not an aerodynamic engineer, just an aerobatic pilot, but a powerful elevator shouldn't be so uneffective at low speeds.

 

- At full power, whatever if you are slow or fast, rudder is always very sensitive. While other aircrafts get a more soft authority with less speed, which is normal. 

That rudder super authority (which is not necessarily an advantage in dogfight for aiming) is also noticable when taxiing. 

 

To me, that rudder super authority at low speed is really killing the "feeling of flying" I get with all other aircrafts.

Edited April 17, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

? Could you be more precise? 

 

 

Just my personal 2 cents about elevator: Real Spitfire is well-known to be very maneuverable. But in the game, compare to other aircrafts, it's so much more maneuverable/sensitive that it's feeling strange to me. In other words, is it normal our Spitfire MkIX has a so different behavior from other aircrafts...? 

But as I never flew a real Spitfire it's nothing more than an opinion. 

 

 

Leaving aside the low speed issues, yes the Spitfire really was different. It had close to neutral static stability,  by design, so the feel of the stick was very different. The developers talked about this in the DD that first introduced the Mk.V 

 

 

[Oyster_KAI]

Try DCS spitfire mk IXc, that's crazy, I spent 2months to figure out the correct curve settings.by contrast, il-2 GB devs have done a excellent job.

[Blackhawk_FR]

For sure dev are doing a good job overall. 

But there is definitly something wrong at low speed. 

It's also the one where I feel the least engine effects (helicoidale blast, torque, gyro). 

[unreasonable]

Well the established practice here is that the developers do not take any notice of general "it feels wrong reports" - which is understandable. They may take notice of a specific report if you can compare and contrast the game with a source. This document has a number of specific performance measurements in it, including for stick and rudder deflections: perhaps if you can find where the game is well off they will take a look.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/NACA-Spitfire-V-Flying.pdf

[Blackhawk_FR]

As I said it's about an inconsistency from the Spitfire 9 compare to other aircraft in the game. So the source is the game itself.

And anyway, you don't need sources to proove that: 

- Rudder can't be as much sensitive at low speed than at high speed. 

- Elevator can't loose so much efficiency at low speed with full power.

[unreasonable]

Actually, the source I gave you does suggest that the rudder is "as sensitive" at low speeds as it is at high speeds. Fig.36 shows a measurement of the maximum change in sideslip angle for a given deflection of the rudder, for three speeds. The lines are almost identical. Of course the force required to achieve a given degree of rudder deflection varies greatly with speed: but unless you have some kind of force feedback rudders that I do not know about, this is never an issue in the game. So this partly depends on exactly what you mean by "sensitive".

 

I am just making the point that vague, qualitative comments like this have absolutely no effect on the developers' thinking. But suit yourself.

[KoN_]

Fly any other plane in GB and your fly just fine , pull your turns hi g yoyo and the sorts yet the spitfire pulling up is just over the top it feels like too sensitive try following through when 109 pulls up , i pull up to follow and the spit goes up too fast cant follow its very off putting as for curves in DCS ``yes i wish we had that here for each plane like they had in Rise of flight  . But for some strange reason we ended up with the settings we have here . . Russian planes easy too fly . Jump in full throttle nothing breaks ..lol

Some thing is odd about spitfire elevator maybe its my joystick . ?? i just cant dog fight in this .

Edited April 18, 2019 by Con

[unreasonable]

@Con  The Spitfires really were very sensitive on the elevator - here is what the Spitfire Mk.II manual has to say:

 

 

I am not claiming that BoX Spitfires are perfect: they seem a little nose heavy to me, but the overall characteristics are pretty well modelled. If you jump around from one plane to another at short intervals you may well have some difficulty in a Spitfire. Fly it a lot: and everything else becomes mundane and dull.  

Edited April 18, 2019 by unreasonable

[RedKestrel]

14 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

@Con  The Spitfires really were very sensitive on the elevator - here is what the Spitfire Mk.II manual has to say:

 

 

I am not claiming that BoX Spitfires are perfect: they seem a little nose heavy to me, but the overall characteristics are pretty well modelled. If you jump around from one plane to another at short intervals you may well have some difficulty in a Spitfire. Fly it a lot: and everything else becomes mundane and dull.  

Reading that...can you basically fly the spitfire with no rudder input for coordinated turns?

[unreasonable]

I read as saying that the obsession some people here have with being coordinated in a turn is excessive.  

[RedKestrel]

2 hours ago, unreasonable said:

I read as saying that the obsession some people here have with being coordinated in a turn is excessive.  

But if the ball's not centred, how will my life have meaning????

[KoN_]

I guess jumping around from plane to plane would make things harder . Or feel strange I tried again last night on server . The pitch is very twitchy . I have no fine tune . It's like there is a delay to input then reacts over the top . . Practice I guess or deadband adjustment needed . 

[CountZero]

40 minutes ago, Con said:

I guess jumping around from plane to plane would make things harder . Or feel strange I tried again last night on server . The pitch is very twitchy . I have no fine tune . It's like there is a delay to input then reacts over the top . . Practice I guess or deadband adjustment needed . 

 

Yes there is delay for elevator imput and thats why you have problems, no deadband adjustment will fix that, its in game since spitv.

If you play with Spit only you get used to it and its no problem, but you clearly se it when you fly any other airplane and then come back to spits.

Its messing up aim wheny your shooting at enemy who is going up/down fast, as all your reactions to it are delayed.

[KoN_]

On 4/19/2019 at 10:47 AM, 77.CountZero said:

 

Yes there is delay for elevator imput and thats why you have problems, no deadband adjustment will fix that, its in game since spitv.

If you play with Spit only you get used to it and its no problem, but you clearly se it when you fly any other airplane and then come back to spits.

Its messing up aim wheny your shooting at enemy who is going up/down fast, as all your reactions to it are delayed.

Yep that's pretty much spot on .

[JtD]

Took the Spit for a turn and found no issue with either elevator or rudder. It's what to be expected from an aircraft with neutral longitudinal and positive directional stability. I also found no delay - if I pulled the stick, the nose went up immediately, and when I put it back into the centre, the nose stopped immediately. It is in this regard different from all other aircraft modelled so far, but that's neither wrong nor hard to deal with.

 

The Spitfire in game has got a totally wrong trim, as has been brought up in several other topics. The resulting errors in handling are tremendous (essentially we're not flying Spitfires), and they clearly overshadow any fine tuning that might be necessary for more realistic rudder / elevator effectiveness. Also, aileron effectiveness near stall is off, as is aileron induced yaw (has also been mentioned in other topics already). Again to a much larger degree than what I see with rudder and elevator as such.

[CountZero]

i dont know how you dont see delay in movment, i can see this delay only in spitfires in game with elevator controls, tm8 also noticed it imidiatly when he tryed spitfire 9 for first time, as i at first i tought something is wrong with my setup, but then i could see its the way airplane is modeled, its anoying when your shooting at enemy who is doing negative g +g moves that are usealy donw to get rid of 6

[JtD]

I'm guessing you're not referring to the reaction to the elevator as such but to the reaction due to the poor stability.

[Blackhawk_FR]

On 4/18/2019 at 4:48 PM, unreasonable said:

I am just making the point that vague, qualitative comments like this have absolutely no effect on the developers' thinking. But suit yourself.

 

If you take time to read my feedbacks you can see I'm showing something clear and easily noticeable. 

 

Again, with the Spitfire 9 (also the 5 but much less), 2 simple things, no sources needed: 

 

For the rudder, I admit it's not the most noticeable, but try by yourself: climb to the verticale and play with your rudder once you're at very low speed (120mph and less). See how it's sensitive (feel like you have more speed than you actually have). Then immedialtly after, try another aircraft, anyone, and notice the difference. All will loose, more or less, some reactivity/sensitivity. As any aircraft IRL. Less speed, less "power" from relative wind on controls, so they will react slower. Normal.

 

The elevator is the most noticeable. Unlike all other aircrafts in the game (and btw, IRL), elevator loose a lot of its efficiency at low speed. Very very very easy to notice by doing a looping with a slow entry speed and trying to stall the aircraft at the top of the loop with full back stick.

Edited April 20, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Guest deleted@50488]

One thing I do notice quite clearly and apparently goes opposite what is described regarding the Spitfire is the elevator vs aileron sensitivity at a wide range of speeds / loads / AoAs...

 

I would expect a much more sensible elevator response, while, specially in the older Vb, the ailerons get heavier / stiffer with "q".

 

Ingame, apart from the modeling of neutral stability, what I notice is that the elevator sin't that "light" at all...  It does stiffen differently from the aileron and rudder though, with increasing "q".

[CountZero]

4 hours ago, JtD said:

I'm guessing you're not referring to the reaction to the elevator as such but to the reaction due to the poor stability.

No i was wrong, after i read your post i had to check it more as i tought this is how airplane is in game, and strange that you would not notice it imidiatly.

And it seams i had noise filter option at 0.5, i dont know when i moved it there, but when i moved it to 0 i see no delay. ( PS that fixed my track ir delay also dont know why that option is tyde to it also)

I guess because spits elevators are so sensitive i didnt noticed this problem with wrong setting on other less sensitive airplanes.

Yes i see this poor stability also but now when i see where i was wrong, its mutch better response.

Edited April 20, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[Guest deleted@50488]

21 hours ago, JtD said:

 

The Spitfire in game has got a totally wrong trim, as has been brought up in several other topics. The resulting errors in handling are tremendous (essentially we're not flying Spitfires), and they clearly overshadow any fine tuning that might be necessary for more realistic rudder / elevator effectiveness. Also, aileron effectiveness near stall is off, as is aileron induced yaw (has also been mentioned in other topics already). Again to a much larger degree than what I see with rudder and elevator as such.

 

JtD, are the Devs aware of this problem?

There are many clues, and one can even be just a graphical glitch, but it doesn't look like so - I mean that typical elevator slightly down position that can be observed on may videos and shots of Spitfires inflight, straight & level.

 

Trimming the Spitfire for S&L ingame is rather awkward ...

[JtD]

37 minutes ago, jcomm said:

JtD, are the Devs aware of this problem?

 

I don't know, I haven't had a private discussion with them on this topic and I haven't read a confirmation on this forum. On the other hand it's hard for me to believe they missed it.

 

The elevator down position is also apparent from the NACA trials, it's roughly 4° down for most of the speed range with very little change over speed. Which is also the reason it is difficult to trim out for level flight. It's another effect of neutral stability. Control forces have a decent gradient, which makes the real life counterpart easier to fly and even trim - as the pilot gets good feedback. But on our desks we don't have these forces so for us it's a bit harder.

Edited April 21, 2019 by JtD

[Blackhawk_FR]

26 minutes ago, JtD said:

The elevator down position is also apparent from the NACA trials, it's roughly 4° down for most of the speed range with very little change over speed. Which is also the reason it is difficult to trim out for level flight. It's another effect of neutral stability. Control forces have a decent gradient, which makes the real life counterpart easier to fly and even trim - as the pilot gets good feedback. But on our desks we don't have these forces so for us it's a bit harder.

 

Is there any feedbacks from real pilots or manuals that state about the loss of elevator efficiency at low speed? Making it almost impossible to stall? 

Btw, this loss of efficiency occurs only on pulling direction. The negative efficiency is still very powerfull at any speed.

 

 

Another question, we agree the Spitfire has not a controlled tailwheel?

Edited April 21, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[JtD]

The NACA report says you could pull the elevator fully back and maintain control with rudder and ailerons even when stalled.

[Blackhawk_FR]

2 hours ago, JtD said:

The NACA report says you could pull the elevator fully back and maintain control with rudder and ailerons even when stalled.

 

That's it: when stalled. In game, we can't stall the aircraft at very low speed due to the loss of elevator efficiency. 

 

I was asking for the tailwheel because taxiing the Spitfire is a good moment to notice rudder is too effective at very low speed. 

Start to taxi very slowly (few km/h), with about 10% power / 1000 rpm. Notice the very good handling you have with the rudder. 

You also notice it the moment you apply full power for take off: you only need ~half of right rudder to hold your axis. While other aircraft need full rudder, or almost. 

 

-> No other aircrafts in game have such an efficient rudder on the ground. You need brakes or a controlled tailwheel to keep your line or turn.

-> In reality, the propeller blast (with few rpm) is too weak to be able to taxi only with the rudder.

 

Those 2 characteristics from Spitfire FM are obvious.

Edited April 21, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

The spit IXs can also recover superfast from a semi-developed stall with active inputs as long as its in the fairly flat phase of the stall, controls at slow speeds and torque really seem more like global errors

 

I'd like to test the IXs energy retention before we get 150oct (which I really hope we get as a mod due to the tough competion), sure it has more excess power than the mkVb since it gained ... 100 and sth HP at peak power and a differetn prop, however it doesnt loose any energy and dives like a bat out of hell unlike the mkVb which doesnt dive at all and bleed alot of speed with the same wing design.

 

The IX really doesnt click with me and doesnt fight just better than any other plane it does whatever it pleases, I really enjoyed the yak-7B from release but the IX .... its just magic

[JtD]

47 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

That's it: when stalled. In game, we can't stall the aircraft at very low speed due to the loss of elevator efficiency.

 

I have no problem stalling the Spitfire in game, I'm losing elevator efficiency after it's stalled. In gliding condition I don't even need a lot of elevator to stall the aircraft, power on it takes quite a bit more.

 

I have no reference about the Spitfire rudder effectiveness while taxiing, so I leave that alone.

[Blackhawk_FR]

6 hours ago, JtD said:

I have no problem stalling the Spitfire in game, I'm losing elevator efficiency after it's stalled. In gliding condition I don't even need a lot of elevator to stall the aircraft, power on it takes quite a bit more.

 

I never said it's impossible to stall the Spitfire. I said it's impossible once you're a very low speed.

Try this way: 

- Start a looping with 270kmh (170mph), at low altitude, normal trim, full power.

- Pull normally, quite close to the stall AoA.

- When you're getting close the top of the loop (~150kmh or 90mph), notice that you can't anymore stall wings even with full back stick pressure.

 

It's also noticable when you're doing tight barrel rolls in a dogfight. When you reach the top of your barrel roll, you feel the lack of efficiency, you can't pull full back stick: ZERO stall. Then once your noise go down under horizon and start to retake your speed, if you still have your full back stick, you will stall. 

 

I had also noticed that without power, elevator gain some efficiency, which is weird. 

 

6 hours ago, JtD said:

I have no reference about the Spitfire rudder effectiveness while taxiing, so I leave that alone.

 

How would you justify the Spitfire is the only aircraft which need so few rudder to keep runway axis during take off?

And why it's the only one you can taxi only thx to the propeller blast? Which is unrealistic btw.

Edited April 21, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[JonRedcorn]

Flying the spit 9 just now online can't feel any delay in any movements of any control surfaces. No idea what you guys are talking about.

[Blackhawk_FR]

17 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

Flying the spit 9 just now online can't feel any delay in any movements of any control surfaces. No idea what you guys are talking about.

 

@Con had the impression of a delay in commands inputs. Nothing more. 

 

Would be better to talk about things which are really weird about the Spit9 FM.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

8 hours ago, =FEW=N3croo said:

The spit IXs can also recover superfast from a semi-developed stall with active inputs as long as its in the fairly flat phase of the stall, controls at slow speeds and torque really seem more like global errors

 

I'd like to test the IXs energy retention before we get 150oct (which I really hope we get as a mod due to the tough competion), sure it has more excess power than the mkVb since it gained ... 100 and sth HP at peak power and a differetn prop, however it doesnt loose any energy and dives like a bat out of hell unlike the mkVb which doesnt dive at all and bleed alot of speed with the same wing design.

 

The IX really doesnt click with me and doesnt fight just better than any other plane it does whatever it pleases, I really enjoyed the yak-7B from release but the IX .... its just magic

 

About the power the gain from the Merlin 45 to the Merlin 66 is really high at low and high altitudes, with almost 300 HP more at sea level. I guess the turn time tells us about the energy efficiency in turns, but I can't for the life of me test it properly ?

[JtD]

8 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

I said it's impossible once you're a very low speed.

 

I stalled it at low speeds, ~1g stalls. IAS was at around 90-70mph.

 

8 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

How would you justify the Spitfire is

 

I don't justify, I explain.

I don't explain, if I have insufficient information.

[Blackhawk_FR]

38 minutes ago, JtD said:

I stalled it at low speeds, ~1g stalls. IAS was at around 90-70mph.

 

9 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

Try this way: 

- Start a looping with 270kmh (170mph), at low altitude, normal trim, full power.

- Pull normally, quite close to the stall AoA.

- When you're getting close the top of the loop (~150kmh or 90mph), notice that you can't anymore stall wings even with full back stick pressure.

 

[Blackhawk_FR]

3 hours ago, JtD said:

 

I stalled it at low speeds, ~1g stalls. IAS was at around 90-70mph.

 

 

I don't justify, I explain.

I don't explain, if I have insufficient information.

 

Now I have a bit more time to answer:

 

For the stall: I’m not talking about classic idle stall on upright level flight path. It’s normal that once you reach a precise AoA, wings stall. 

The weird thing about the FM is that you can’t reach that AoA under certain conditions (top of a loop, for example).

 

For the rudder, I understand you prefer not to explain/talk about something if you don’t have informations.

But as I said, you can easily:

- Notice that you can make turns when taxiing only with the propeller blast. And that you need half of the rudder (or less) to hold your line during take off.

- Find pilots notes, manuals, etc, that state you need full right rudder at take off. 

- Propeller blast is insufficient to turn when taxiing, it’s a fact.

- Notice all other aircrafts need full rudder for take off.

Edited April 22, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[JtD]

a) The Spitfire cannot fly a looping from a starting speed that slow, it's physically impossible.

b) There's no way of telling if it stalls out on top or not, because coordinated flight is not possible. Which is the logical consequence from starting a looping at a too low speed.

c) The wrong trim of the aircraft still is THE problem with it, and not elevator authority, no matter how you interpret the uncoordinated flight after a slow speed high power pull up.

 

To sum it up, all that this manoeuvre would be good for are unqualified statements.

 

2 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

- Notice all other aircrafts need full rudder for take off.

 

I've checked this already and it's not true. I suppose you're taking the Bf109 as a reference, but the Bf109 is not comparable to a Spitfire for landing gear geometry and weight distribution alone.

Edited April 22, 2019 by JtD

[Blackhawk_FR]

5 minutes ago, JtD said:

The Spitfire cannot fly a looping from a starting speed that slow, it's physically impossible.

 

I did it... so yes it can. We are talking about in game Spit right?

 

5 minutes ago, JtD said:

The wrong trim of the aircraft still is THE problem with it,

 

Yes the problem may come from the trim... I can’t tell. At the end, whatever the reason of the problem, the result is the game: loss of elevator efficiency.

 

5 minutes ago, JtD said:

There's no way of telling if it stalls out on top or not, because coordinated flight is not possible.

 

Sorry to say you’re not doing that loop correctly... I should make a video when I will have time.

Edited April 22, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[JtD]

To do a proper looping from that starting speed you'll need to have about 120 mph going over the top. Good luck.