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-Legio.V-Ursus_

Engine time limits

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Posted (edited)

I open this post for a civilizated discussion of this topic. So please don't do salty comments about this.

 

 

I know the topic of engine time limits already has been discused, like   here on this WEP topic and there is a lot of opinions about how this might be fixed because it's not very reallistic put limits on engines because the physics doesn't work like that, and the actual engines weren't so delicated, there is a lot of posts on forum talking about actual tests of engines, like here and this topic about P-47 behaviour and engine function

 

What happens is this. Some engines are very limited, like P-40, the already mentioned P-47, the Spitfire Mk V, the Bf-109E and F2 etc. Those limitations on his engine, WEP or combat power limits seriously their combat capabilities.

 

The time limits on engines are ok but they are very strict. On actual war the actual engines suffers of wear and they needed more manteinance, on games of course this doesn't happens and its understandable, but as already said, time limits are very strict. So. what did you think about this

Edited by -Legio.V-Ursus_
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In earlier battles it's bad but bearable because the most affected planes (the P-40E and the P-39L) have some other advantages and you could adapt.

 

In the BOBP it could be crippling bad for the US planes because they don't have any significant redeeming qualities, anymore (magic flaps shouldn't count). At least not against late war LW fighters at common (read low) altitudes. In the game 5m of WEP is all they get for anything resembling competitive performance. Shortly after that you are back to the weak nominal and good luck!

 

Note that 3 of 5 planes from Allied BOBP planets are US ones.

3 of 5 planes from Axis BOBP planets are high performance, historically rare and late fighters including the jet. They have (props at least; not sure about the 262) 10m of very high performance setting, 30m of still strong combat setting and favorable timer regeneration policy.

There are no mission objectives which need flying at higher altitude so far.

I have seen the blue/red numbers disparity increasing to 3/1 ratio in BOBP MP matches, already.

 

How it does look?

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Timers have to be removed. The idea of flying for say 1-5 on max power, then waiting like 10-20 min to recharge is ridiculous. What are you recharging? Did the temperature raise during max power? Also, just because you cannot simulate increased engine overhaul frequency, doesn't mean it's a good idea to make it explode literally within seconds of going max power like in P-40 and P-39. The whole system has to be revised, including all aircraft. 

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Somebody lock this, literally just had like 2 or 3 threads with hundreds of replies in each, go drag one of those up. Don't want to listen to ehret drone on about it.

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You won't.

 

Give it little more time and more technically oriented users may resign. There are alternatives.

You will be able to enjoy your alternative tech history, flat earth, gamey handicapping "simulator" without an interruption.

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53 minutes ago, DragonDaddy said:

Ehret : Just out of curiosity, what do you see as a good alternative to BoX? I always like having options and wonder what you recommend?

 

Option 1: Make timers an option in the mission/difficulty settings, this way players/servers who don't want timers can disable them.

 

Option 2: Have all aircraft follow the same timer rules.

Spoiler

-Aircraft all recharge timers at the same rate (1:1 seems to be the most logical)

-WEP and Combat power shouldn't eat into each others timers.

-WEP should recharge in Combat and lower power settings.

-Combat should only recharge in lower settings not WEP. (No more WEP/COMBAT cycle)

 

-Water injection is a special case and should be considered. With aircraft that have water injection WEP should be allowed for the whole time the aircraft has water (if this was possible in the real aircraft (P-47 as an example). Once water runs out WEP isn't available anymore at the same power if at all, so the short advantage of having WEP longer is short lived due to a finite amount of water.

 

Option 3: Have timers that are extended/more random. Once engine time is exceeded the chance of failure should increase but it should not be a guarantee like it is now. The longer you go over the timer the more chance of failure, it should start off small and grow slowly as time goes on. This way you have a chance to go longer over the limit without instant failure but eventually it might/will fail. (after 10, 20, or even 30min, etc.)

 

Option 4: Have a detonation/heat model. This is the most realistic option but in reality it's pretty much the same as removing timers by themselves. The likelihood of detonation/damage by going 10-15 min over the engine timer is slim to none.

 

Option 5: whatever other option people think of.

Edited by Legioneod
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5 hours ago, DragonDaddy said:

Ehret : Just out of curiosity, what do you see as a good alternative to BoX? I always like having options and wonder what you recommend?

War Thunder does it right, they have the most realistic flight modeling and engine modeling ever made. You can even take part in huge 8v8 battles. It's incredible.

 

:fly:

5 hours ago, Ehret said:

You won't.

 

Give it little more time and more technically oriented users may resign. There are alternatives.

You will be able to enjoy your alternative tech history, flat earth, gamey handicapping "simulator" without an interruption.

🤣

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8 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

War Thunder does it right, they have the most realistic flight modeling and engine modeling ever made. You can even take part in huge 8v8 battles. It's incredible.

 

:fly:

🤣

Well I will say war thunder does engines better than Il2, other than that Il2 is better in every way.

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Just now, Legioneod said:

Well I will say war thunder does engines better than Il2, other than that Il2 is better in every way.

I mean it does engines the same way the old game did, flat out 24/7 until it overheats. What is prop pitch?

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2 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

I mean it does engines the same way the old game did, flat out 24/7 until it overheats. What is prop pitch?

Still a better implementation than what we have here. Engine's dying due to overheat would be far more realistic than what we have here.

Last I checked war thunder had prop pitch but it's been a long time since I played warthunder aircraft.

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32 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

War Thunder does it right, they have the most realistic flight modeling and engine modeling ever made. You can even take part in huge 8v8 battles. It's incredible.

 

WT at least shows Earth's curvature, wing's guns are ripple (as they should) firing and some flight models aren't that bad. And no... I didn't mean WT as alternative.

 

Also, you can not WEP 24/7 in WT because it has a gradual degradation implemented. 100x better system then the flying clocked bombs we have here if you select "a wrong plane". And the M4 cannon M54 shells have self-destruct tracer working.

Edited by Ehret
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Go play war thunder then. War thunder has prop pitch. It doesn't do anything though. 

Edited by JonRedcorn

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1 minute ago, JonRedcorn said:

Go play war thunder then. 

 

No need. There is other choice which don't penalize you for "selecting wrong planes" and have more than less done right.

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Just now, Ehret said:

 

No need. There is other choice which don't penalize you for "selecting wrong planes" and have more than less done right.

Which ones? Questions already been asked and you didn't reply. I'd love to play them. 

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Just now, JonRedcorn said:

Which ones? Questions already been asked and you didn't reply. I'd love to play them. 

 

How do you know? - It'd be rude to discuss competitor products here publicly thus

I PM-ed the person who asked.

Perhaps you would like to make this topic closed but no. I believe you are just bait trolling now.

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1 hour ago, JonRedcorn said:

Go play war thunder then. War thunder has prop pitch. It doesn't do anything though. 

 

Do you honestly believe Il2 has a good engine model compared to reality or even other products, or are you just looking for an argument/reason to close this thread?

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Just giving me info in techchat when i run out of fantasy timer and when its recharged ill be more relaxed in playing with usaf stuff in this flying game. Simple stuff that helps a lot.

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The best solution would be to just remove all limits.

 

 

But I think both parties in the community could be made happy by just giving everything 10-15min of WEP, or when water runs out, whichever comes first. And NO limits on the use of any setting below WEP, such as military power.

 

Long enough that you wont run out in a fight. Short enough that you cant fly around using WEP as cruise. 

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6 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

Do you honestly believe Il2 has a good engine model compared to reality or even other products, or are you just looking for an argument/reason to close this thread?

I've clearly stated in the multiple other threads on this subject that I don't like the time limits. Making thread after thread with the same people whining about them isn't going to change anything. Do people here think there is some magical button the devs can push or one single line of code that dictates whether an engine goes or not?

 

Reworking the entire way engine modeling is done while they are in the middle of releasing a huge new expansion is foolhardy.

Edited by JonRedcorn
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1 hour ago, JonRedcorn said:

I've clearly stated in the multiple other threads on this subject that I don't like the time limits. Making thread after thread with the same people whining about them isn't going to change anything. Do people here think there is some magical button the devs can push or one single line of code that dictates whether an engine goes or not?

 

Reworking the entire way engine modeling is done while they are in the middle of releasing a huge new expansion is foolhardy.

I hear what you are saying, but I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The fact that this issue keeps coming up over and over and over, even in threads not directly about it, is an indication that this is a rather huge problem. I think we should keep bringing it up because complaining is the only way anything gets fixed. You have to let people know that the current situation is not satisfactory. The fact that this subject creeps in everywhere is better than a vote of dissatisfaction. It shows that the issues is extremely pervasive. 

 

And the development period of a new module is EXACTLY the time to be complaining. The devs have always introduced the biggest overhauls during major releases. 

 

With the current implementation, the developers may as well not even do flight modeling. Its a waste of time because the engine management makes a mockery of aircraft performance and renders it moot.

Edited by Fumes
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8 hours ago, Fumes said:

I hear what you are saying, but I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The fact that this issue keeps coming up over and over and over, even in threads not directly about it, is an indication that this is a rather huge problem. I think we should keep bringing it up because complaining is the only way anything gets fixed. You have to let people know that the current situation is not satisfactory. The fact that this subject creeps in everywhere is better than a vote of dissatisfaction. It shows that the issues is extremely pervasive. 

 

And the development period of a new module is EXACTLY the time to be complaining. The devs have always introduced the biggest overhauls during major releases. 

 

With the current implementation, the developers may as well not even do flight modeling. Its a waste of time because the engine management makes a mockery of aircraft performance and renders it moot.

 

 

 

 

 

docholiday2.gif

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5 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

 

 

 

 

 

docholiday2.gif

Where do you beg to differ? The only aspect of the flight model that matters is the relative combat performance between planes. It really does not matter in the slightest if the engine output model in 9000% percent accurate, or if the aero is accurate, if that is offset by the fact that the engine limits reduce power or limit its use to tactical obscurity. 

 

In other words, it means exactly zilch that I have the exactly correct bhp or lift or drag if that power is not actually available. 

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10 minutes ago, Fumes said:

Where do you beg to differ? The only aspect of the flight model that matters is the relative combat performance between planes. It really does not matter in the slightest if the engine output model in 9000% percent accurate, or if the aero is accurate, if that is offset by the fact that the engine limits reduce power or limit its use to tactical obscurity. 

 

In other words, it means exactly zilch that I have the exactly correct bhp or lift or drag if that power is not actually available. 

Literally bolded the part I was responding to. If the engine limits are causing you that much grief I suggest switching titles. I am sorry that's the case for you.

Edited by JonRedcorn

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Why do some users get in these threads, whine about how they "have" to suffer another discussion on a topic that has been done to death; then hang around the thread being rude and trolling?

It kills me, these are the people that are found of saying something to the effect "if you don't like it, go play something else", yet don't take their own advise when it comes to threads that they don't think should exist.....um, if you don't want to participate/read a thread about a topic you feel has been beat to death in far too many other threads then, by all means, you are free to go read other threads.

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Should not do that but here you have it - notice the date:

PM_other_games.jpg.b3375adc6ac5d8081c7b89a9262bd5c7.jpg

 

Some of you are such ... - now go laugh at the mirror!

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I don't think any simulator is perfect. No matter which one, there will always be a certain discrepancy. I like the way Il-2 has chosen to stick to the official manuals. Besides, it's sometimes not as bad as indicated. After all, the engine "recovers" after a while with lower throttle for example from the emergency power. Best planes to demonstrate that are the Bf 109 G14/K-4.  Also, the engine does not explode immediately after this time. Even if it tends to do it quite shortly afterwards.

 

Of course there are also airplanes, like the P-40, which suffer from the fact that they destroy themselves with overspeeding the engine, although they were flown later with higher manifold pressure. But there we are again with the not perfect.

 

At the moment I don't think there will be a big rework for the engines. First of all there will be the Marshal feature, just as there will be the rework for the fuel system during the year.  And if I may remind you, this game will be continuously developed and improved.


So a tweak with the engines is not impossible. And before the complaining starts about how bad the condition is. If it were that bad, you'd probably notice it in the player numbers, wouldn't you? After all the reviews of the last 30 days on Steam are 85% positive. So the Dev´s seem to be doing something right.

 

At the end we have to wait and see where the journey takes us.

 

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