A plea for true missions and combined attacks

[KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82]

Hello,

 

 

I just wanted to share my feelings about a certain thing.

It is that I experience some things which I dont understand maybe.

 

 

Why is it, that on casual servers (those without a dynamic campaign, those servers where some other map is loading after the map-mission is over) many people are going strictly

and only to one side?

Yesterday I joined KotA server in the evening with a mate, and there were around 50+ germans and only ca. 25 soviet players.

Sure, this can change in a short time if some players are leaving, also I can see off course, that joined squadrons dont split up. That all makes sense.

Also, I can not and would not order people how to take their spare time.

 

 

But by the given example above, I experienced that very very few players actually are taking attacker and bomber planes on either side. With my squadron mate I took an IL-2 to attack some german position and we sneaked up on a good way, just to see near the target area, around 10 german fighters, like a horde of vultures.

Off course we did not came home.

Jump in an attacker again, repeat. And repeat.

 

 

Simply I want to say:

The fighter/interceptor stuff is surely nice, but its not an end in itself. It was only existing for gain air superiority, to make the way free for own strategic or tactical and CAS planes. Eskorting transports with supplies and paratroopers.

Sure, combat patrols and big scrambles are part of it, but on many casual servers we mostly see the lone-wolf(s) hording up like vultures to dive on something to get the air kill.

For the sake of our all immersion and the troops on the ground - specially when you have a quantity advantage - jump from time to time in an attacker/bomber and do something in a bigger perspective.

Also, communicate with each other.

Asking the small fighters for eskort, reconaissance and SEAD is a seldom thing I see, more seldom to actually get an eskort on the casual servers, which is a little sad in my eyes, cause those are/were also important things in an air-war which we pretend to simulate, right?

Doing something together is even more fun on a multiplayer server, hard to believe, I know...

 

 

Or try once one of the very few servers with a dynamic campaign.

You will laugh maybe, but flying with 3x Ju52, eskorted by 2x 109's a supply flight from a very rear AF to a frontline AF can be very exciting if your flight is intercepted by some I-16's.

And you brought supplies forward and even after map rotation there is not a new scenario, but a slightly changed frontline and the brought supplies are counted.

Just as an example.

Or if you stopped an advancing tank spearhead attack in Ju87 with the 37mm guns and so after map rotation this region on the map is not falling to the other side.

There are so many things to do, but to many people are doing all time the same ?

 

 

Well, this is already to long, but I wanted to write it away from my heart.

Feel free to discuss.

 

 

Greetings, Kalle

 

 

[=621=Samikatz]

The servers have an option to enforce balance if they want to, but very few seem to actually do it for some reason. Sadly by being a game with winners and losers lots of people will pick whatever side gives them the easiest kills, which tends to be the Luftwaffe

[RedKestrel]

Online I tend to fly about 50/50 fighter and attacker sorties, with the occasional bomber sortie. I'm not great with the bomber aircraft yet so I don't get into them much. I need to do a bit more SP familiarization. What I've tended to do lately is take a fighter with a fighter-bomber loadout and try and clear AA around ground targets to pave the way for ground attackers. It's pretty hazardous as you end up dealing with ground fire and enemy fighters at the same time, but it pays off for follow up attacks from dedicated ground attackers who now have less AA and possible fewer fighters to deal with. 

The server imbalance is a long-running issue that comes down to the fact that there are a lot of people who pretty much only fly Luftwaffe fighters. This is for a lot of reasons - there's more automation so they're easier to manage engine-wise, they're almost always better performing than the competition, etc. You'll rarely see these types of people flying any kind of ground attacker or doing any kind of escort or cooperation since their focus is on kills rather than mission success. This starts a feedback loop with the Axis ground attackers, since a big proportion of their fighter pilots are just looking for kills rather than covering their attackers, so people who want to fly ground attack have to accept that if they're attacked en route they can expect no help from these guys. And the Axis ground attackers are generally more vulnerable to enemy fighters than the VVS side, so players that care about stats or their virtual life have less incentive to fly Axis attackers since they have a good chance of being doomed if they run into enemy fighters.

The reason fighters in general are more popular online, I think, is that people go online usually to test their skills against other players. If you're flying an attacker, your objective is to avoid other players, so the online aspect is less important. So people who are competitive as individuals will tend to take fighters. This isn't to say there aren't dedicated, competitive attacker pilots out there, there certainly are, but the mindset that produces them is less common, and by necessity their competition is oriented more towards mission success than number of kills. IMO they are to be cherished, nurtured, and given as much air cover as they desire!

The dynamic campaigns are rare online since many people only have time to drop in for an hour or so, do a few missions, and then do something else. A lot of people are busy and get very little benefit from complex dynamic campaigns, which require a lot of dedication to get the most out of, and often require a lot of work to sign up, keep track of what planes are alotted to you, etc. Certainly its the most interesting form of online combat, but I rarely play in those servers because I can't dedicate enough time to learning the intricacies needed to become a useful contributor. 

Cooperation is hit and miss online, I think its because a lot of people don't have voice comms, and those that do tend to stick to their own squads and friends to avoid running into obnoxious types, and typing in the chat while flying is quite awkward. I don't have voice comms because my computer is in a common area in our house, so often people are watching TV, reading, or doing something else and I don't want to disturb them with a one sided conversation, and I certainly don't want my companions to have to deal with background noise from my microphone.

I've had very good experience in KOTA just using the team chat, organizing air cover over a target, getting volunteers to hit the AA, reports of location of enemy fihghters, etc. Less so with Combat Box, but that's a new server so I expect as more people become 'regulars' you'll see much more coordination.  

Best way to foster communication is to just state your own intentions, often people will offer escort, info about the target, etc. Not perfect but its better than nothing.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

It is because some only ever fly for one side or are a part of a side specific squad, which is fair enough. 

 

The above is even more so for the more serious servers like KOTA....

 

The server balance option was used a lot in the past but it causes the server player number to drop rapidly as people can't use the side they want.

 

Team balance is also very much related to time zone. I find when it is around 5-6 pm Moscow time there are more Vvs and as it gets later the Axis players start to take over.

 

There is no simple solution to this and forced server balance is a servers suicide call.

 

I think with BOBP we will see more Axis switching over (esp US and UK pilots that don't like vvs stuff).

 

Ultimately I think players and squads should fly both side in based on number (and some do) but most will not and that is the way of lthe world.

Edited April 11, 2019 by AeroAce

[56RAF_Roblex]

 

If we want to encourage mission based play then we need to move away from rewarding people for seal clubbing outnumbered enemies and start rewarding people for doing something useful.  Some starting points for discussion might include:-

 

Apply a multiplier for each sortie based on the Red/Blue ratio at that time but also factor in the overall numbers ie flying 10 v 20 is worth a lot more than flying 1 v 2. In fact the rewards for flying on a near empty map where you may as well be alone should be negligible.

Reward bombing (whether bomber or fighter-bomber)  & transport missions more.  Maybe give fighter pilots more points for killing an enemy fighter when there is a friendly bomber close by then you may see greedy fighter pilots actually wanting to escort a bomber raid.  Maybe also give high rewards for gunning?

Stop making 'Kills' the main source of ego validation in the tables and replace it with points.

Make the points have some value beyond 'status'. Not sure what,  Rank promotions?  Loadout unlocks?  Better starting fields?
Reward staying alive,  ditching in friendly territory & RTBs to stop the current suicidal attacks just to win the map or get kills.  Yes that is harder in a bomber but make the rewards outweigh the risks.

 

 

 

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

If we want to encourage mission based play then we need to move away from rewarding people for seal clubbing outnumbered enemies and start rewarding people for doing something useful.  Some starting points for discussion might include:-

 

Apply a multiplier for each sortie based on the Red/Blue ratio at that time but also factor in the overall numbers ie flying 10 v 20 is worth a lot more than flying 1 v 2. In fact the rewards for flying on a near empty map where you may as well be alone should be negligible.

Reward bombing (whether bomber or fighter-bomber)  & transport missions more.  Maybe give fighter pilots more points for killing an enemy fighter when there is a friendly bomber close by then you may see greedy fighter pilots actually wanting to escort a bomber raid.  Maybe also give high rewards for gunning?

Stop making 'Kills' the main source of ego validation in the tables and replace it with points.

Make the points have some value beyond 'status'. Not sure what,  Rank promotions?  Loadout unlocks?  Better starting fields?
Reward staying alive,  ditching in friendly territory & RTBs to stop the current suicidal attacks just to win the map or get kills.  Yes that is harder in a bomber but make the rewards outweigh the risks.

 

 

 

All of these are great ideas I think. I'd like to see combat modifiers for bombers and attackers. For example, successfully returning in an attacker with battle damage gets you twice the multiplier as simply landing. This gives some credit for attacking well-defended targets. Maybe giving 'ditched' the same multiplier as landed successfully for ground attackers that have successfully attacked a ground target. Not sure if either of these are possible with the way the stats are but they might help a bit if it is.

I do think, however, that going from valuing kills to points is more of a 'cultural' change than a stats change. The whole concept of the 'ace' fighter pilot is going to persist among fighter-oriented players, and that's going to drive a desire for air kills regardless. Its pervasive in popular culture too. No matter how many points we award for ground attack, the idea of the noble fighter pilot/knight jousting honorably with his opponent high above is going to carry a lot of weight. It's just seen as more glamorous then making attack runs on ground troops and targets. I suppose its not considered sporting to attack soldiers on the ground from the air - the ground troops I think are perceived as helpless in the face of air attack, when in reality we know that attacking ground targets was often more dangerous than fighting enemy aircraft.

Honestly we probably just need to glamourize ground attack more lol. Get some expert ground attackers and churn out some "tank ace in a flight' videos on YouTube, show them dodging murderous AA on an attack run. Get some traction that way, really show people how fun and challenging mud-moving can be, and focus on the teamwork aspect, with everyone flying to the mission.

[KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82]

Some great ideas here!

Giving more points to the attackers if succesful, than the equal air victory could work.

 

@RedKestrel

@ Making videos:

Well, there is some point here, or how I would say it: the snake bites in its own tail.

The dedicated ground-attacker can for the most part not make a "lone-wolf" mission if he want to survive. Even if there is no enemy fighter around, flying an attack run alone to some fortification point or a well guarded bridge/factory/AF ect. is crazy enough.

So, in order to be succesful, we groundattackers must organize our selfes.

 

Like:

Organize a flight of few planes

chose target and best loadout

fishing for recon data maybe made earlier by someone else

Taking the best marching route

In case of 0 Eskort, avoiding enemy planes

chose formation and stay there

chose a near but rear area for maybe isolated comrades to pick them up later there

play the AA bait

get the attack angle horizontal and vertical correct

survive the AA

bomb/shot

get the correct exit angle (for example if some other objective is very near)

repeat

 

Just a few of the points, not in detail but its a lot of work many exclusive fighter pilots never think about.

But the most important thing is - you can not do it alone.

I get it if people can or dont want to come on communication channels, but writing in ingame chat also helps a lot.

Every bomber/CAS will be very happy, if the fighter guys actually take a little care of them.

You see 2-3 CAS taking off?

Ask for target and ca. route to going there. Stick with them and I guarantee - both "groups" will profit from each other and have fun, during something senseful was done too.

 

[beresford]

How about allowing bomber/attacker pilots to command one or two AI wingmen, the same as in career mode? To keep things simple, the bombers could drop when you drop and abort if you get shot down. A more complicated version would require the player to declare a target so the AI can carry on without him, but this could also allow his own plane to continue as AI if his connection drops or he voluntarily leaves the server.

 

Server owners could be given the choice of washing out availability of AI wingmen if lots of meatware is available, in order to avoid server overload, Or some server capacity could be reserved for  AI-padded attacker/bomber flights. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by beresford

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

It would be nice if you got more points for attacking the targets in a mission. As it is, it is more profitable points wise to fly a fighter and shoot anything that moves than fly a long time to bomb a target, even though the bombing does more to win the map.

With everyone flying fighters though, they are all to busy shooting each other down to find my lonely bomber, but when they do find me they crash into and shoot each other in an attempt to be the first to destroy me and get the kill, even to the extent of ramming.

[JonRedcorn]

I agree, I would love to have way more bomber targets to shoot down in my p-47/spit9. ?

Edited April 23, 2019 by JonRedcorn

[FTC_Mephisto]

Implement lobby functionality to enable match making and allow people to join a mission (generated or custom made) at the same time. Two teams, different roles, different planes, endless possibilities... We had it all with hypperlobby and old IL-2 already in 2001...

Edited May 2, 2019 by Mephisto

[RedKestrel]

3 hours ago, Mephisto said:

Implement lobby functionality to enable match making and allow people to join a mission (generated or custom made) at the same time. Two teams, different roles, different planes, endless possibilities... We had it all with hypperlobby and old IL-2 already in 2001...

There have been a few mentions that the devs are working on implementing a lobby-style system for MP, so maybe we will see this one day.

[=FSB=Man-Yac]

I think fun servers you should not put any restrictions and let people enjoy whatever they want. And a lot more people have more fun flying fighters me included. I do usually go to the side with lesser players because I find both set of planes fun. On dynamic servers there is space for debate. But if you want realistic missions with fighters being a compliment to ground pounders, singleplayer, or events is the place to be. Granted I enjoy flying a lot more when I see bomber formations escorted by fighters and so on but the real thrill for me is to shoot down human controlled vehicles, if its a human formation its the ultimate thrill! I enjoy destroying tanks when actual people are driving them! Its a weird philosophy but I think I am not the only one.

[SCG_OpticFlow]

On 4/11/2019 at 5:46 PM, KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82 said:

Hello,

 

 

I just wanted to share my feelings about a certain thing.

It is that I experience some things which I dont understand maybe.

 

 

Why is it, that on casual servers (those without a dynamic campaign, those servers where some other map is loading after the map-mission is over) many people are going strictly

and only to one side?

Yesterday I joined KotA server in the evening with a mate, and there were around 50+ germans and only ca. 25 soviet players.

Sure, this can change in a short time if some players are leaving, also I can see off course, that joined squadrons dont split up. That all makes sense.

Also, I can not and would not order people how to take their spare time.

  

 

But by the given example above, I experienced that very very few players actually are taking attacker and bomber planes on either side. With my squadron mate I took an IL-2 to attack some german position and we sneaked up on a good way, just to see near the target area, around 10 german fighters, like a horde of vultures.

Off course we did not came home.

Jump in an attacker again, repeat. And repeat. 

  

  

Simply I want to say:

The fighter/interceptor stuff is surely nice, but its not an end in itself. It was only existing for gain air superiority, to make the way free for own strategic or tactical and CAS planes. Eskorting transports with supplies and paratroopers.

Sure, combat patrols and big scrambles are part of it, but on many casual servers we mostly see the lone-wolf(s) hording up like vultures to dive on something to get the air kill.

For the sake of our all immersion and the troops on the ground - specially when you have a quantity advantage - jump from time to time in an attacker/bomber and do something in a bigger perspective.

Also, communicate with each other. 

Asking the small fighters for eskort, reconaissance and SEAD is a seldom thing I see, more seldom to actually get an eskort on the casual servers, which is a little sad in my eyes, cause those are/were also important things in an air-war which we pretend to simulate, right?

Doing something together is even more fun on a multiplayer server, hard to believe, I know...

  

 

Or try once one of the very few servers with a dynamic campaign. 

You will laugh maybe, but flying with 3x Ju52, eskorted by 2x 109's a supply flight from a very rear AF to a frontline AF can be very exciting if your flight is intercepted by some I-16's.

And you brought supplies forward and even after map rotation there is not a new scenario, but a slightly changed frontline and the brought supplies are counted.

Just as an example.

Or if you stopped an advancing tank spearhead attack in Ju87 with the 37mm guns and so after map rotation this region on the map is not falling to the other side.

There are so many things to do, but to many people are doing all time the same ?

 

  

Well, this is already to long, but I wanted to write it away from my heart.

Feel free to discuss.

 

 

Greetings, Kalle

 

 

 

KOTA is very similar to WoL. Bunch of fighter pilots taking off from the taxi way and vulching the one or two focal points of the map for the few naive people like you that are trying to play the mission. Same thing happens on most servers, IMO it's not the servers fault, its the bunch of people that are behaving in this manner everywhere they go.

 

We had those "fighter" squadrons on Coconut's server too until they got bored and left (because the map was big and there were too many possible targets to vulch at) and their absence was one of the main reasons the server felt so interesting for ground attackers and we had a chance to get to know each other and build a community around it.

Edited May 3, 2019 by OpticFlow
typo