Flying Circus Aircraft Guide — by Bender, Larnedras & Trupo [UPDATED 28/12/2021]

[No.23_Gaylion]

Maybe youll get it in the twelvefth second.

[Cynic_Al]

55 minutes ago, US213_Talbot said:

Wow; rocket surgery.

 

Classic mixed metaphor there, but never let me discourage you from sticking a knife into a rocket.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Your funny.

[BMA_Hellbender]

UPDATED 24/12/2019

• Albatros D.Va, Pfalz D.IIIa and Halberstadt CL.II accidentally a word about nearly unrecoverable spins
   

Thanks, gents!

For those looking for the full list of spin recovery procedures, inherited from RoF:

 

https://rof.s3.amazonaws.com/UM/ROF_Manual_English_133c_rev1.zip (page 151-152 of the RoF manual)

 

 

 

Halberstadt CL.II is missing from that list, it may be time for someone to compile a new list for FC.

Edited December 24, 2019 by J5_Hellbender-Sch27b

[J2_Trupobaw]

tl;dr:

German planes, not Fokker: Stick FORWARD and into the spin, then opposite rudder.
German planes, Fokker: Automatic recovery

Entente planes spinning RIGHT: Stick BACK and into the spin, then opposite rudder. Throttle down for SPAD and Camel.
S.E.5.a and Dolphin spinning LEFT:  Stick BACK and into the spin, then opposite rudder.
Camel Spining LEFT:  Stick FORWARD and into the spin, then opposite rudder.

[JG1_Kaiser]

On 3/27/2019 at 1:21 PM, US103_Hunter said:

Ahem, the 103rd in my squadron, Larner is our highly paid, eagle eyed, tea drinking adjutant!

 

We have some concerns about the FC SPAD at the moment. It seems to have really lost some of it's edge in the new flight engine. Energy retention is not as good and the Hun machines seem to be gaining ground on our old SPADs. If we could the the 235 HP Hispano......

 

We will have to wait and see how it turns out.

 

S! Hunter

I don't get it.  Isn't it enough that the SPAD will outrun anything in the game, and when you get in trouble, all you have to do is dive out of it.  No one can catch that plane in a dive.  I would think that in such a dive it would cause some structural or engine damage, but...hey.....what do I know.  

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by J30_Kaiser

[No.23_Gaylion]

No.

[No.23_Triggers]

2 hours ago, J30_Kaiser said:

I don't get it.  Isn't it enough that the SPAD will outrun anything in the game, and when you get in trouble, all you have to do is dive out of it.  No one can catch that plane in a dive.  I would think that in such a dive it would cause some structural or engine damage, but...hey.....what do I know.  

 

How many sorties do you have in a SPAD? 

[No.23_Gaylion]

Seriously, does everyone think we don't fly the other planes ever? 

 

Do you guys not realize the hours we put into actual legitimate training?

 

Do you guys not think we spar with eachother to find the strengths and weaknesses of these planes?

 

We often spend more time training than we do flying on public servers. Most of the time fighting eachother on our server is the most challenging thing we experience online.

 

 

 

[No.23_Triggers]

12 minutes ago, US213_Talbot said:

Most of the time fighting eachother on our server is the most challenging thing we experience online.

[No.23_Gaylion]

[US96_Wright]

Its me Wright just want to say i agree and can vouch for the training they really do know there stuff both Larner and Talbot  as well as Bear and every other CO that is normally present on mondays. No offense to you guys or anything yes we can dive away but it becomes a nill possibility due to one or two things altitude and engine heath and at times one or both can be in finite supply and if that is the case with the d7f being the way it is now its like being in a VW bug and drag racing a Ferrari.

 

Yes we have wingman but even those aren't always an option I'm not complaining I'm just mentioning the curcumstances.

Edited February 10, 2020 by US93_Wright

[BMA_Hellbender]

On 2/10/2020 at 12:42 AM, J30_Kaiser said:

I don't get it.  Isn't it enough that the SPAD will outrun anything in the game, and when you get in trouble, all you have to do is dive out of it.  No one can catch that plane in a dive.  I would think that in such a dive it would cause some structural or engine damage, but...hey.....what do I know.

 

On 2/10/2020 at 3:29 AM, US213_Talbot said:

Seriously, does everyone think we don't fly the other planes ever? 

 

Do you guys not realize the hours we put into actual legitimate training?

 

Do you guys not think we spar with eachother to find the strengths and weaknesses of these planes?

 

We often spend more time training than we do flying on public servers. Most of the time fighting eachother on our server is the most challenging thing we experience online.

 

On 2/10/2020 at 4:01 AM, US93_Wright said:

Its me Wright just want to say i agree and can vouch for the training they really do know there stuff both Larner and Talbot  as well as Bear and every other CO that is normally present on mondays. No offense to you guys or anything yes we can dive away but it becomes a nill possibility due to one or two things altitude and engine heath and at times one or both can be in finite supply and if that is the case with the d7f being the way it is now its like being in a VW bug and drag racing a Ferrari.

 

Yes we have wingman but even those aren't always an option I'm not complaining I'm just mentioning the curcumstances.

 

As @J2_Trupobaw and I discussed at length when creating this guide: there is an "ace bias".

 

By which we mean to say: we look at what you can potentially achieve with a plane if you fly it to its absolute strengths. In that regard, the SPAD is peerless. Or more accurately: without peer. It's worse than the Fokker D.VIIF, and it's better than anything else on Central. That doesn't mean that you automatically win any encounter against anything other than an F, on the contrary, perhaps more than any other plane in FC1 you need patience and discipline to score kills and survive.

 

If you go for more fantasy matchups, such as SPAD vs. Camel, it's a bit of a toss-up. In theory the SPAD is faster and climbs better, but once you are in gunnery range, your margin for error becomes 0 and you need supreme patience to wrest a positional advantage. With the D.VIIF, this is (again theoretically) impossible to do, as the F climbs better and can go far above your service ceiling, and while it's not a great diver, it does require the SPAD to dive away perfectly to get to safety.

 

I'm a supporter of the 235hp SPAD (or whatever it is that the HS-8b generates by late 1918), in the same way that I support as many engine variants on other planes as possible. If it were available today, it would have to be treated as an equal to the Fokker D.VIIF (and Bentley Camel, Sopwith Snipe, Siemens-Schuckert D.IV...) and it wouldn't fix the inherent imbalance compared to other Central machines. If it were up to me, we'd first need the 200hp Albatros D.Va and Fokker D.VII, just so we can retire the F completely, and we wouldn't even need to change anything about the current missions, although the 200hp Central scouts would be limited compared to their standard 180hp counterparts — just nowhere near as severely as the F.

 

Hopefully the SPAD will get another chance to shine in FC2 if the single Vickers 180hp SPAD VII gets pitched against the twin Spandau Albatros D.III. A far more equal matchup, in my opinion.

[No.23_Triggers]

3 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

perhaps more than any other plane in FC1 you need patience and discipline to score kills and survive.

While Halfheartedly attempting not to toot my own horn, this is the thing I really wish more pilots knew when they talk about the SPAD! I remember we had one guy join who used to fly Central all the time, and the first thing he said in training was "I never realised the SPAD was so bloody hard to fly!" 

 

 

3 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

I'm a supporter of the 235hp SPAD (or whatever it is that the HS-8b generates by late 1918), in the same way that I support as many engine variants on other planes as possible.

 

Eyyy! You help us convince the Devs to get a proper high compression 220hp Hisso and we'll help you convince them to put the D.IIIaü in the planes that need it! 

Edited February 11, 2020 by US93_Larner

[BMA_Hellbender]

5 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

While Halfheartedly attempting not to toot my own horn, this is the thing I really wish more pilots knew when they talk about the SPAD! I remember we had one guy join who used to fly Central all the time, and the first thing he said in training was "I never realised the SPAD was so bloody hard to fly!"

 

Oh yeah, no way I'd ever pick the SPAD back when I was flying Entente. Some of the IRFC people really liked it (Scarpo was the real deal — figures, he's a fencing instructor), but as far as inlines are concerned, I always felt more comfortable in the Dolphin. Knowing how well it performed compared to the early S.E.5a with the same low compression 200hp H-S 8Ba, I wonder just how amazing it could have been with the Wolseley Viper. I guess it fits the same fantasy category as the Pfalz D.XII with the BMW IIIa.

 

I keep telling myself that I'll go back to flying the Camel one day, even if I've supposedly sworn it off for good. It's still the most superb energy fighter of the lot, if you tame the beast.

 

 Likewise, going from Entente to Central was like turning realism settings down a notch. And simulation speed down to 3/4. ?

[No.23_Triggers]

25 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

as far as inlines are concerned, I always felt more comfortable in the Dolphin. Knowing how well it performed compared to the early S.E.5a with the same low compression 200hp H-S 8Ba, I wonder just how amazing it could have been with the Wolseley Viper.

I remember Cecil Lewis mentioning in Sagittarius Rising that while on a solo flight he took a Dolphin on in a mock dogfight and the other guy absolutely put him to shame...when they landed together it turned out that it was one of his buddies from his training days...

...the guy asked him something to the effect of "So you still haven't learned to fly yet?" HA! 

[TWC_Ace]

On 2/12/2020 at 12:53 AM, J5_Hellbender said:

 

I keep telling myself that I'll go back to flying the Camel one day, even if I've supposedly sworn it off for good.

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

On 2/12/2020 at 12:53 AM, J5_Hellbender said:

 

Oh yeah, no way I'd ever pick the SPAD back when I was flying Entente. Some of the IRFC people really liked it (Scarpo was the real deal — figures, he's a fencing instructor), but as far as inlines are concerned, I always felt more comfortable in the Dolphin. Knowing how well it performed compared to the early S.E.5a with the same low compression 200hp H-S 8Ba, I wonder just how amazing it could have been with the Wolseley Viper. 

 

 

I would like to see those documents digitalized...

 

Technical notes, Sopwith Dolphin.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4082276

 

Table: weight, performance etc. of the SE 5a Sopwith Dolphin and Austin Ball machines

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4011557

 

 

Or others like 

 

Report and notes on Sopwith Camel with 130 h.p. Clerget engine 

 

Sopwith Camel aircraft: stability experiments

 

A summary of tests on Sopwith "Camels"

 

Lateral stability of Sopwith Camel aircraft: No. 1 report

 

The behaviour of the Sopwith Camel aeroplane in a spin

 

Experiments to compare the spinning tendencies of Sopwith Camel and SE 5a aircraft

 

Sopwith `Camel' aeroplane: behaviour when flying inverted

Report on "Fokker" Triplane

German aircraft - notes: Fokker Triplane.

 

Comparative performance of various airscrews for SE5A aeroplane with Wolseley Viper engine

I wonder if devs had them when they made ROF FMs ?

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[emely]

On 2/11/2020 at 4:54 PM, J5_Hellbender said:

 

If you go for more fantasy matchups, such as SPAD vs. Camel, it's a bit of a toss-up. 

Why is it fantastic?  It is quite real.  You can and Dolphin vs Camel for example.

 

p.s.  The color table, which is higher in the text, has a number of inaccuracies in the realities of the FC.

[gad11]

great guide! thanks!

[emely]

19 hours ago, gad11 said:

great guide! thanks!

Be so kind, tell me in which message in this thread there is a guide to the game.  I read it all, but never saw anything.  Maybe I'm blind ?

[No.23_Gaylion]

The first one.

[Yours_truly_Ace]

To save you all from lots of time and trouble:
Dogfight: Camel / Fokker DVIIF / Dr.1
Boom'n zoom and tucktale n' run (aka coward annoying twat): Spad and SE5a. 
Boomers: 2 seaters

[BMA_Hellbender]

3 hours ago, 127Tom said:

To save you all from lots of time and trouble:
Dogfight: Camel / Fokker DVIIF / Dr.1
Boom'n zoom and tucktale n' run (aka coward annoying twat): Spad and SE5a. 
Boomers: 2 seaters

OK Boomer.

[J5_Gamecock]

On 2/11/2020 at 6:53 PM, J5_Hellbender said:

Scarpo was the real deal — figures, he's a fencing instructor

 He was also a fantastic P51 pilot... which is how he said he flew the Spad.

[1PL-Sahaj-1Esk]

I liked the early SE5a in RoF - by many called 'glas engined SE5a' for me it was almost never a problem. Poperly geared it had a top acceleration and awesome climbing turn, a wholly different plane compared to the current SE5a. Back then SE5a's features fitted in with the pilot descriptions of that time where as now they are not.

 

S!

[J5_Gamecock]

2 hours ago, 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk said:

I liked the early SE5a in RoF

Do you recall how it used to "Scream" in a dive? Like it had a siren, made it harder to get a good bounce.

[1PL-Sahaj-1Esk]

46 minutes ago, J5_Gamecock said:

Do you recall how it used to "Scream" in a dive? Like it had a siren, made it harder to get a good bounce.

 

yes, but since the vickers were not synchronized with the prop, we used to turn off the engine and glide down - silent like a hawk

 

 

[ACG_PanzerVI]

Recommend pin the spin recovery table to page1 of this forum.  Took me like an hour to find it after planting my SE5a trying a conventional recovery technique.  Would also be interested in notes on adjustments coming from IL2 like keybinding adjustments, engine management, tactics/damage, etc....

[JG1_Kaiser]

A few.  Not many.  All I know is I can chase a Spad diving out of a fight in a D7F, blow my motor and break the plane, and the Spad still pulling away.  I also can't gain on or catch a Spad in level flight or a climb.   I know that the Spad won't turn like the D7F, but it is faster.  Just don't see the need for making the Spad any faster than it is.  All they're used for is zoom and boom anyway, and in numbers.   That's all I see.

[No.23_Gaylion]

 

[=RS=Stix_09]

 

On 4/5/2020 at 10:01 AM, US213_Talbot said:

 

 

Ya, prob is in that video above is not a good example of a Spad  out diving a DF7 from altitude. That Spad lost too much energy , by turning during and after the dive. You still have to use energy wisely. The Spad only reacted after attacking balloon, after pulling up and loosing most of the energy from dive , he was almost on the deck at that point and turning.

 

You also have to fly directly away from chase plane, that will not work in any plane, as they just pull lead on you as was done also here. Its all about energy, like all Bnz fighters , keep the advantage or bug out. That said nothing is a match for the DF7 on equal or less energy in hands of skilled pilot , same as ROF was.

Edited April 22, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09
typo

[No.23_Triggers]

23 minutes ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

 

 

Ya, prob is in that video above(not a good example), that Spad lost too much energy , by turning during and after the dive that's why df7 was able to catch up so easy. (you also have to be fly directly away from chase plane, that will not work in any plane, as they just pull lead on you as was done also here)

You still have to use energy wisely, thats not a great example of Spad out diving a DF7 and exit.

That SPAD should have been long gone in that dive. Nothing wrong with that example (EDIT: Except for the fact that the D7F can apparently close on a diving SPAD). 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by US93_Larner

[No.23_Gaylion]

52 minutes ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

 

 

Ya, prob is in that video above is not a good example of a Spad  out diving a DF7 from altitude. That Spad lost too much energy , by turning during and after the dive. You still have to use energy wisely. The Spad only reacted after attacking balloon, after pulling up and loosing most of the energy from dive , he was almost on the deck at that point and turning.

 

You also have to fly directly away from chase plane, that will not work in any plane, as they just pull lead on you as was done also here. Its all about energy, like all Bnz fighters , keep the advantage or bug out. Nothing is a match for the df7 on equal or less energy in hands of skilled pilot , same as ROF was.

 

So, enlighten me; what would you have done if you just shot up a balloon then found a D7f right there on your tail? This same situation above.

 

I saw him at 1:20.

Edited April 22, 2020 by US213_Talbot

[=RS=Stix_09]

From info I've watched and read most kills were not from more risky dogfights(why do that?) , like we see in Mplayer. You blew their brains out before they even knew you were there.

McCudden fro example was known for this type of dive from altitude killing as discussed in WWI Aces Falling.

12 minutes ago, US213_Talbot said:

 

So, enlighten me; what would you have done if you just shot up a balloon then found a D7f right there on your tail? This same situation above.

 

I saw him at 1:20.

 

Was not the point of your video to demonstrate how the Spad can't get away from DF7 in a dive, in response to the comment by @J30_Kaiser?

If so its a terrible example to use.

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

OK, whatever.

[=RS=Stix_09]

  

2 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

That SPAD should have been long gone in that dive. Nothing wrong with that example (EDIT: Except for the fact that the D7F can apparently close on a diving SPAD). 

 

 

No that video does not show this. It shows a Spad attacking a balloon pulling up and turning , bleeding most of the energy from the dive, then trying to turn and run at low alt, with less energy than Dr7 chasing at when it sees tha DR7  (at which point DR7 had a lot more energy). The Spad also turns back towards home and then runs having even less chance to get away because the dr7is able to pull lead on it.

 

A Spad at plenty of altitude diving directly away from a DR7 is not shown in this video.

 

its not about what Spad or dr7 pilots did , its , just not a good example of how a Spad(that has altitude) can't outrun a DR7 with equal or more energy at start of chase with a bit of horizontal separation. You  fly the Spad like a fw190.

 

That Spad was screwed the moment it pulled up and turned @1:10

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09
video link added

[No.23_Triggers]

3 hours ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

  

 

No that video does not show this. It shows a Spad attacking a balloon pulling up and turning , bleeding most of the energy from the dive, then trying to turn and run at low alt, with less energy than Dr7 chasing at when it sees tha DR7  (at which point DR7 had a lot more energy). The Spad also turns back towards home and then runs having even less chance to get away because the dr7is able to pull lead on it.

 

A Spad at plenty of altitude diving directly away from a DR7 is not shown in this video.

 

its not about what Spad or dr7 pilots did , its , just not a good example of how a Spad(that has altitude) can't outrun a DR7 with equal or more energy at start of chase with a bit of horizontal separation. You  fly the Spad like a fw190.

 

That Spad was screwed the moment it pulled up and turned @1:10

 

 

Speaking with about 200hrs + in RoF and 100hrs in FC on SPADs....That SPAD should have got away. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by US93_Larner

[=RS=Stix_09]

1 hour ago, US93_Larner said:

 

Speaking with about 200hrs + in RoF and 100hrs in FC on SPADs....That SPAD should have got away. 

 

Well then if that was the case it would have, but did not, so that proves my point in this particular example of how it's not going to work if you fly a Spad in that manner. You do not do energy killing maneuvers after a dive and you fly in general direction away from the opponent. You fly without killing energy and you can escape, which is how you would have managed in a Spad to do likewise in ROF and FC.

Edited April 22, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[No.23_Triggers]

3 minutes ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

Well then if that was the case it would have, but did not, so that proves my point in this particular example of how it's not going to work if you fly a Spad in that manner. You do not do energy killing maneuvers after a dive and you fly in general direction away from the opponent. You fly without killing energy and you can escape, which is how you would have managed in a Spad to do likewise in ROF and FC.

Hahahah okay man