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Hi, if I have reservations for shooters in Russian aircraft, it is very difficult to kill them, it seems to be very unrealistic, in German it looks much easier, but in Russian it is almost immortal even in b-17 it is easier to shoot the shooter. the second case of the rear gunner hit the target from a very far distance in the maneuvers of both planes, aircraft overloads for such accurate firing probably did not allow.

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Posted (edited)

While I completely agree that Pe-2 is one tough mf to kill, I also know that rants which include a lot of "I have reservations", "it seems", "it looks much easier", "very hard", "very easy", "very far", "probably" etc. isn't going to change the tinest bit. Furthermore, it's probably going to get ignored by the key stakeholders from the spot.

 

That said - please bring some objective (repeatable, non biased, non ambiguous,...) ingame tests where you either compare two planes in exactly the same manner, or compare it to historical evidence. Only then you can hope to catch the attention of those who can do anything.

 

Again, I agree with you completely about Pe-2 being tough and its gunners deadly. For me one of the most frustrating situations is attacking a formation of Pe-2s with 109 with no gondolas or MK108. Seems more dangerous than fighting off a gaggle of pissed Yak-1Bs who managed to catch you with your pants down at treetop level.

Edited by CrazyDuck
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Posted (edited)

I find it dangerous because Pe-2 gunners have 12.7mm UBS. Attacks on the 20mm-equipped He-111 are as deadly IME.

Edited by ethelward
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As a frequent Pe-2 flyer I can attest to the fact that the rear gunners are deadly. What often gets me though is the engine damage if I'm too far from home. A good tip would be to not keep going if you see it likely that the aircraft won't make it home. Another thing is where you attack. Never go down under the tail, never stay directly at 6 high either. I had one german take out my whole formation of 3 once, with slashing attacks diagonally. The waist guns on the Pe-2 is a weak spot for sure. We stood no chance. We dropped the load, aborted and ditched just over friendly lines.

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I would say for any attack against a bomber never sit to the six position because that’s where armour would be concentrated the most.   Always slash or head on strafe.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Funny that, literally just now on the server I saw a Pe2 take out 3 109s and got back to base almost unscathed.

 

They really need to sort this out. People have been saying the same thing for years now, yet the developers refuse to do anything about it. 

 

Pe2 is nothing but a gunship. Not only does the airframe take insane damage, but the crew is almost invulnerable and they nail you no matter your 700kph closing speed. You hit them from head on underneath- no worries, the crew will be fine and that rear gunner will have already calculated your exiting position and have you nailed in 1 shot- perhaps maybe even taking out your skull. We’ve all seen it before.

 

Granted the Pe2 has 12.7mm machine guns which pack a heavy punch, however, to this extent you have to be joking. However, having said that, I am well aware they need to sort out gunner AI behavior for all planes red and blue. They both suffer the same problems. 

 

What I wonder is why don’t the whole red side fly all Pe2 and see how quick it takes to roll a map- no fighter escorts needed.

 

Regards

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins
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the main thing that I think makes the Pe-2 seem much deadlier than German bombers is that it flies so much nicer. It makes sense, as it's such a light airframe, but in a game where most of the bomber pilots have had extensive fighter hours too, and next to none of them care much about holding formation, the Pe-2's ability to go full throttle and show its deadly end to you makes fighting it a difficult task. The He-111 has more and arguably better guns for some angles, but it flies in a ponderous manner and it's much easier for red fighters to pick and choose what angles they hit it from

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10 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

the main thing that I think makes the Pe-2 seem much deadlier than German bombers is that it flies so much nicer...

 

This is also a contributing factor for sure. It has a heavy fighter quality to it. I have chased off and even downed attacking aircrafts in the Peshka quite a few times. People sometimes underestimate it and even fly away from a pass so low that I can flip my nose up and clip them in the belly. A few weeks ago I had a wingman save my IL-2 in his Peshka. I turned back towards them seeing him chase the FW downwards after a damn hammerhead, guns blazing. A bizarre sight.

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PE 2 is one of my favorites, it feels heavy but maneuver well over its real ability. I think devs have done a great job with it, but in reality it had very heavy controls and was , referring to many of the pilots notes I seen a "pig to fly" . If I remember correctly this was in slow speed and turbulent weather.

In this game I am sure of one thing, the ability to save your PE 2 is its excellent field of view. And latest patches have mede it much easier to spot a attacking fighter. And most of the time I get attacked after I dropped my bombs and are low on fuel, then this is no bomber anymore it is a BF 110 light, with much more structural strength. The only thing I find a bit biased compared to those two is  how easy PK happens in a BF 110 compared to PE 2, maybe the seat is better armored

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PE2s I aim between the engines and wing roots (I'm not nearly a good enough shot to be more precise than that :) ).  I can usually get at least one by setting it on fire or knocking out the engines.  Sometimes one has to be good enough.  Shoot from close range.

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That one tail gunner does have some pretty uncanny accuracy sometimes I'll give the OP that. There are a bunch of other reasons why the Pe-2 is a dangerous aircraft to attack and they aren't all that surprising when you look at it. The Pe-2 is actually more of a heavy fighter turned into a bomber/dive bomber when looking at its history. It doesn't have a tremendous bombload but what it does have is an excellent top speed, ability to dive and level bomb, the commensurate strengthening that makes a twin engined heavy fighter into a dive bomber be something close to workable, and to get back on topic... the top and belly gun are both 12.7mm Berezin machine guns. Until the MG131 on the back of the He111H-16 shows up... none of the German bombers have that kind of defensive firepower.

 

Those stray bullets that hit you when you attack a German bomber can be sometimes shrugged off. With the Pe-2 that gets a lot harder and I think that's why its so feared. There's also the matter of closing speeds which are a low lower on the Pe-2 which already is traveling at near fighter speeds compared to the much slower He111 or somewhat slower Ju88.

 

All of these things play a factor.

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23 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Until the MG131 on the back of the He111H-16 shows up... none of the German bombers have that kind of defensive firepower.

 

What you said, plus - UB is nearly twice as powerful as a MG 131! So it's not easy to find a 1941-1942 period bomber with as formidable defensive armament as Pe-2.

 

However, I agree that the Terminator T-1000 accuracy of the gunners needs to be reduced. The other day I've dropped on a Pe-2 from huge altitude advantage, set its fuel tank aflame, but as I "victoriously" extended below the aircraft, the rear gunner racked my poor 109 nose to tail with his deadly UBT in a split second opportunity window! I was dead sooner than he was. Yeah, frustrating as hell, especially in a campaign mission, after already killing 2 or 3 fighters first.

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1 minute ago, CrazyDuck said:

 

What you said, plus - UB is nearly twice as powerful as a MG 131! So it's not easy to find a 1941-1942 period bomber with as formidable defensive armament as Pe-2.

 

However, I agree that the Terminator T-1000 accuracy of the gunners needs to be reduced. The other day I've dropped on a Pe-2 from huge altitude advantage, set its fuel tank aflame, but as I "victoriously" extended below the aircraft, the rear gunner racked my poor 109 nose to tail with his deadly UBT in a split second opportunity window! I was dead sooner than he was. Yeah, frustrating as hell, especially in a campaign mission, after already killing 2 or 3 fighters first. 

 

For sure. Most of the time the gunners behave normally but then the odd time they pull a weird one out of their hat and nail a essentially impossible sniper shot. I can only assume its some sort of weird bug.

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If the AI gunners where too strong, then you would expect to be less effective with a human gunner. In my experience, human gunners are much more effective than the AI.

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I have no idea why this subject keeps coming up.

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Nor do I, attack from angle with some rudder slippage and better with a 190 than a 109 which will do it's Swan Song quickly if hit by a Pe2 gunner bullet.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

I have no idea why this subject keeps coming up.

 

That's some form of sarcasm right?

 

The only subject most here have no idea about- is why the devs haven't done anything in years to fix this. 

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins
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Posted (edited)
On 3/10/2019 at 10:13 PM, pawelie said:

Hi, if I have reservations for shooters in Russian aircraft, it is very difficult to kill them, it seems to be very unrealistic, in German it looks much easier, but in Russian it is almost immortal even in b-17 it is easier to shoot the shooter. the second case of the rear gunner hit the target from a very far distance in the maneuvers of both planes, aircraft overloads for such accurate firing probably did not allow.

 What server are you talking about..
One of the more popular servers sets russians Plane gunners to High/ACE 250% skill while german planes are all set to low or normal to maintain that servers russian bias.
so you cannot judge say the strength or accuracy of gunners in that server.

But other servers have all gunners set to same "Normal" skill level which is the default Accuracy and detection rate the Devs designed and intended for balance.

Edited by =TBAS=Sshadow14
clarity of context
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4 hours ago, =TBAS=Sshadow14 said:


One of the more popular servers sets russians Plane gunners to High/ACE 250% skill while german planes are all set to low or normal to maintain that servers russian bias.
so you cannot judge say the strength or accuracy of gunners in that server.
 

 

What server is that?  Presumably, to be able to quote that figure it cannot be a secret so which one is it?

 

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15 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

What server is that?  Presumably, to be able to quote that figure it cannot be a secret so which one is it?

 

 

19 hours ago, =TBAS=Sshadow14 said:

 What server are you talking about..
One of the more popular servers sets russians Plane gunners to High/ACE 250% skill while german planes are all set to low or normal to maintain that servers russian bias.
so you cannot judge say the strength or accuracy of gunners in that server.

But other servers have all gunners set to same "Normal" skill level which is the default Accuracy and detection rate the Devs designed and intended for balance.

 

Yes - please tell us the Russian Biased Server and are it is run by Vladimir himself out of St Petersberg?

Do you have the server scripts that show the biased settings??

I'm sure The Daily Mail or Daily Beast could corroborate your info. 🤣

 

End of the day - Pe2 in earlier plane sets had better defensive weapons compared to German multi's.  Later war German multi engined aircraft got better guns to match.

 

PITA to go up against a Pe2 especially in a 109 but you can and you have to be very astute as to how to approach them as a target.  If a Pe2 looses an engine, then it is most likely not going to make it home unlike German Multi's which can feather and have enough power to get back to base on a single engine. 

 

Fly up the ass of a Pe2 - get shot down, easy as that.

C'est la vie as the French used to say.

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I've flown a fair few Peshka's on Coconut, there has been grumbling from pilots about the eagle eyed rear gunner but honestly, he has a fantastic field of view and a powerful weapon.

 

I think the biggest mistake people make when attacking the peshka is to attack along it's beam, if above or below you've got a gunner facing you, always attack a peshka from the flank, if in the rear quarter, come in low, if from the forward quarter come in high and dive away low (towards the peshka's direction of travel)

 

Remember that as you attack from the rear you present a lovely circle (prop) for the gunner to shoot at, the bulls eye being your engine.

Boom and Zoom, Attack from the top! attack in a climb! just don't complain when you make yourself an easy target for the gunners.

 

 

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Well I've read several books of Finnish fighter pilots memoirs and I've not seen any indication that Pe-2 were any more dangerous than any other turreted plane. Actually the tailgunner posed hardly any threat according to veterans. Usually a burst towards gunners pit silenced the gunner completely (or shaked him to find cover behind the armor plate) and then they parked behind the bomber and started peppering the engines. The shrapnels from disintegrating plane were perhaps considered more dangerous if using cannon.

 

For example in LLv34 records there are two losses against bombers during the war: A-20 Boston's tailgunner managed to get WO Lauri Jutila during a high altitude chase, Captain Lauri Pekuri was shot down by IL-2, but IIRC even he was shot down by IL-2 pilot, not gunner. Sgt  Paavo Saarni was lost and no knowledge why, so I guess he could be counted as "possible". Following link about claims/losses is in finnish, but I'll post it anyway. Of course LLv34 was only one squadron and usually you had to be recognized pilot already to get there so pilots were all veterans. There are >50 claims for Pe-2 so they have also engaged Peshkas.

 

https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Lentolaivue_34:n_ilmavoitoista_ja_sotatoimitappioista

 

My point being that gunners are too effective. The main reason could be that they are too brave; they keep shooting you even they are spinning down without a wing (I got once killed by this sort of IL-2 gunner). Or they are too invulnerable (I've only once seen a dead gunner in flying IL-2).

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14 minutes ago, Hanu said:

Well I've read several books of Finnish fighter pilots memoirs and I've not seen any indication that Pe-2 were any more dangerous than any other turreted plane.

 

The trouble with these anecdotes is that 1) They are written by the people that did not get shot down and 2) Can we really assume that real life fighter pilots made stupid & impatient attacks like we do?    Have you ever seen authentic footage from inside a bomber showing a gunner blasting away at a fixed spot in the sky?  No, all the footage shows gunners swinging their guns around wildly trying to  follow a target slashing past at high speed.   Most accounts from bomber crew also talk about enduring 20 minutes or longer of constant attacks before limping home.   Nobody in this game is going to spend twenty minutes bringing down a bomber.  We all expect to kill it in the first pass and start to call 'Cheat/Bias' if it has not died within 3 minutes of attacking 😏

 

22 minutes ago, Hanu said:

they keep shooting you even they are spinning down without a wing (I got once killed by this sort of IL-2 gunner).

 

I certainly remember reading a fighter pilot describe how he was shot down by a Ju88 gunner that kept shooting even while the bomber was spirally down in a death dive.  He followed it down to watch it crash and did not expect anyone to stay at their gun ainstead of jumping. I think it might have been in 'Ten Little Fighter Boys'  which is a great book because most pilots Bios are heavily sanitised to show the best bits but in TLFB they happily admit to all their screw ups like losing the squadron in the middle of a patrol and breaking their planes through bad flying.  It makes me feel like less of a hopeless case 😄

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

The trouble with these anecdotes is that 1) They are written by the people that did not get shot down and 2) Can we really assume that real life fighter pilots made stupid & impatient attacks like we do?    Have you ever seen authentic footage from inside a bomber showing a gunner blasting away at a fixed spot in the sky?  No, all the footage shows gunners swinging their guns around wildly trying to  follow a target slashing past at high speed.   Most accounts from bomber crew also talk about enduring 20 minutes or longer of constant attacks before limping home.   Nobody in this game is going to spend twenty minutes bringing down a bomber.  We all expect to kill it in the first pass and start to call 'Cheat/Bias' if it has not died within 3 minutes of attacking 😏

 

1) That's why I presented that all the losses LLv34 suffered during the war, only one fighter was shot down by a gunner, compared to 50+ claims on Pe-2 alone.

2) Usually the people are pointing out is that you get shot down even if  you don't do stupid attacks. Your reference to authentic footage is IMO shooting to its own leg as authentic footage is very very rare, constant attack most likely means "our formation was under attack for 20 minutes" and "I was shooting everything I could see flying by".

 

Also I did not call it Cheat/Bias. Ok, I posted on "Russian bombers" thread because it the topic here, but I said the gunners are too effective and gave couple of possible reasons for it, which are not plane-related.

Edited by Hanu
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I think the point I was trying to make is that if death was a major issue rather than just an irritation and we knew we had 20 minutes to get the kill without anyone "stealing" it off us or chasing us away then very few of us would die getting bomber kills.  We would *never* risk losing our lives sitting behind a bomber.  We would just make many fast slashing attacks outside of any gunner arc with no more than half second bursts each time.  Most of those passes would not do much damage but we would not care as we have 20 minutes and could be patient just like real life pilots or be content to disengage without the kill if escorts turn up.   In the game, even if we intercept an enemy bomber attacking our most rearward targets he will probably be back in his own territory within 5 minutes and even before he gets back across his lines there is a good chance of an enemy fighter joining in or a friendly fighter deciding to attack your target.  For this reason we take big risks that a real life pilot would not have taken so we can get the kill as quickly as possible yet we still expect to have the same survival rate and way above average kill scores for taking stupid risks.

I would love to see a server that kicks people out for an hour every time they are shot down,  maybe for longer if they are killed or captured.    It would be interesting to see how player behaviour would change.   This is why I love playing 'Events' where a mission lasts several hours and you get just one life.   

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Posted (edited)

Here was my last pe2 kill, 334 hits to kill

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4122092/?tour=46

My only problem with the pe2 is that it is that they seem to be in a class of their own for toughness.  I've wiped out rail yards with the same ammo expended.  The gunners are also very hard to kill.  Ive had my bf110, il2, ju87, a20, ect gunners killed and have killed enemy gunners with ease but i have never killed a pe2 gunner before the aircraft and maybe had 1 die in countless sorties.  I dont have a problem with the gunners themselves.  People attack aircraft with gunners from stupid angles and act suprised when the usual happens.

Edited by Joeasyrida
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48 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:


I would love to see a server that kicks people out for an hour every time they are shot down [...] It would be interesting to see how player behaviour would change.

 

They would stop playing on that server.

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5 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

They would stop playing on that server.

QFT.

It's a great way to lose players.

 

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I only used to play co-ops and large online wars with the old IL2 years ago... and that went on for years with servers that were jammed with people, queuing up to get a slot...

Quess what?... if you got killed in the first 5 mins, or you effed up your take off and were killed, you were out, simple as.

You could wait up to another hour or so sometimes before your squadron mates finished their mission... then you certainly paid more attention to your virtual life next time.

The servers were always full of pilots waiting to 'get back to the war'... it certainly didn't diminish anyone's desire to line up again and have another go.

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41 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

They would stop playing on that server.

 

I was not asking anyone to do it as I know a lot of players would spit out their dummies if they could not play Airquake .  I just meant it would be interesting to see how it changes behaviours if someone did it as an experiment.

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Posted (edited)

Basically the Pe-2 is a special case because of heavy caliber defensive gun, good firing arcs, twin tails which unlike all other bombers allow you to shoot directly behind you without hitting yourself, belt fed ammo, and aircraft speed. Speed makes it difficult to get anything other than rear passes and the rest ensure if you do that you’ll eat .50 cal rounds. A-20 has the tail in the way and box mags so it’s way less dangerous from the rear. The other major factor is OP gunner accuracy. Put an actual human in the back and compare him to the AI. I’d take an AI gunner any time.

Edited by ACG_Kai_Lae
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8 minutes ago, ACG_Kai_Lae said:

Basically the Pe-2 is a special case because of heavy caliber defensive gun, good firing arcs, twin tails which unlike all other bombers allow you to shoot directly behind you without hitting yourself, belt fed ammo, and aircraft speed. Speed makes it difficult to get anything other than rear passes and the rest ensure if you do that you’ll eat .50 cal rounds. A-20 has the tail in the way and box mags so it’s way less dangerous from the rear. The other major factor is OP gunner accuracy. Put an actual human in the back and compare him to the AI. I’d take an AI gunner any time.

 

So when the B-25D gets in game with its twin, belt fed heavy machine guns in the rear and split tail, respectable top speed and tough, all metal construction, we're going to see tears?

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1 minute ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

So when the B-25D gets in game with its twin, belt fed heavy machine guns in the rear and split tail, respectable top speed and tough, all metal construction, we're going to see tears?

No just aim bot accusations, as it is only AI. Once it becomes flyable... the "the bomber will always get through". At least in the world where trigger happy loners think they can just casually  zap a bomber.

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6 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

So when the B-25D gets in game with its twin, belt fed heavy machine guns in the rear and split tail, respectable top speed and tough, all metal construction, we're going to see tears?

 

I imagine we will, yes. The allies finally getting a medium bomber with a major bomb load is going to be a Bad Day indeed for the Axis (I mean when we get the collector's flyable version :)).

 

On the other hand, we'll be getting a B-25, which in and of itself will make the sim better. Can't wait for that baby. :)

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1 hour ago, Joeasyrida said:

Here was my last pe2 kill, 334 hits to kill

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4122092/?tour=46

My only problem with the pe2 is that it is that they seem to be in a class of their own for toughness.  I've wiped out rail yards with the same ammo expended.  The gunners are also very hard to kill.  Ive had my bf110, il2, ju87, a20, ect gunners killed and have killed enemy gunners with ease but i have never killed a pe2 gunner before the aircraft and maybe had 1 die in countless sorties.  I dont have a problem with the gunners themselves.  People attack aircraft with gunners from stupid angles and act suprised when the usual happens.

 

Yes that's also another big part of the problem. Testing on SP, you can see the crew just doesn't die despite tremendous volleys of hits that would eviscerate the crew on the other machines. 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

 

I imagine we will, yes. The allies finally getting a medium bomber with a major bomb load is going to be a Bad Day indeed for the Axis (I mean when we get the collector's flyable version :)).

 

As far as I know the B-25 doesn't have that much greater bombload than the A-20 (2000 Kg / 4400 lb)

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1 hour ago, Joeasyrida said:

Here was my last pe2 kill, 334 hits to kill

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4122092/?tour=46

My only problem with the pe2 is that it is that they seem to be in a class of their own for toughness.  I've wiped out rail yards with the same ammo expended.  The gunners are also very hard to kill.  Ive had my bf110, il2, ju87, a20, ect gunners killed and have killed enemy gunners with ease but i have never killed a pe2 gunner before the aircraft and maybe had 1 die in countless sorties.  I dont have a problem with the gunners themselves.  People attack aircraft with gunners from stupid angles and act suprised when the usual happens.


I haven't flown the Pe-2 a lot but of all the times I've flown it, I've gotten shot down after a max of two passes from enemy fighters (I've never managed to land the damn thing in MP). No crew deaths but I have been wounded before. I'm not saying its not tough but its not made of concrete either. I would say that given the glass cockpit the crew should probably be more vulnerable than they apparently are. Maybe an issue there with registering hits on crew.

I've gotten one kill with the tail gunner, and that was when the enemy followed me down to the deck after I was already mortally wounded (one engine out, the other smoking). Its just about impossible to fly the Pe-2 on one engine so if you see black or white smoke from an engine just back off and let the plane die.

Actually I'm just in general struck with how tenacious players are with following an obviously dead aircraft all the way down to the deck, shooting until wings come off. I guess they want to ensure a kill but they're wasting ammo and altitude and risking return fire and lawndarting. Il-2's gunners are more afraid of dishonour than death so they'll keep shooting right until they hit the ground.

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1 hour ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

As far as I know the B-25 doesn't have that much greater bombload than the A-20 (2000 Kg / 4400 lb)

It's even worse, only 3000lb.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

As far as I know the B-25 doesn't have that much greater bombload than the A-20 (2000 Kg / 4400 lb)

 

I admit that's pretty weird. A light bomber would carry less than a medium bomber?

 

That said, looking at various sources, there's some different standards used: the A-20's load limits include external stores (to a total of 4000lbs), while the B-25 states 3000lbs internal (but also mentions external stores were used).

 

I'd imagine the B-25 has a bigger load overall, and hopefully also has the option of carrying bigger bombs.

Edited by 71st_AH_Yankee_

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