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Alfaunostebas11

AI Soviet tanks vs AI German tanks: no match !!!

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Posted (edited)

I am trying to study the characteristics of the BoS ground units, so as to generate, during the missions, ground fights as realistic as possible.
I realized, however, that the Soviet units, especially the tanks, are clearly superior to the German ones and no match is possible, if not, perhaps (but I haven't yet tested), clearly varying the skills and odds in favor of the Germans, but this does not correspond to the reality.
Try to make a frontal battle between 6 T-34s and 6 German tanks of your choice: at any distance from 300 to 1000 m. the result will be always 6-0 in favor of the Soviets. Yes !
German tanks are not able to destroy any Russian tank....
I would be happy to be denied, otherwise you tell me how you can set a realistic ground battle ...?

Stebas.

Edited by Alfaunostebas11

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Posted (edited)

Salutations,

 

Your observations of the current armor quality disparity is absolutely correct. There is currently no way to create historically realistic (numbers wise) tank missions. 

 

The German Tiger can very effectively stand up to all of the Russian armor but we only have access to the 'player' version of It right now.  🙁

 

That being said, I fully expect this situation to change as Tank Crew is fleshed out with more tank versions for all involved nationalities. This has to happen or TC will not be a viable or enjoyable tank simulation for historical mission builders.

 

Heck, in one of my KV-1 missions... a single Soviet KV-1 was able to completely destroy and stop a column of at least 20+ Axis tanks.

 

We will just have to wait and see.

 

Oh.. in your T-34 assault scenario... you could place a few German NOICON 88s far to the rear to provide some mission balance. Otherwise, tank by tank the Germans are outmatched.

Edited by Thad
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I have no problem killing Russian tanks with the Tiger at long range.  I believe that there is a bug that causes problems for the Tiger at close range.

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Sometimes your entire job as a mission designer is to create illusions instead of actual war.

In this case, you could have the six tanks shooting at the ground near the enemy six tanks and vise versa. Then periodically [via a random timer] and randomly [via a random selection] you destroy one of the 12 tanks. When the all the tanks for one side get destroyed [via a six count counter for each side], you stop the rest of the logic and declare a side the victor. You can have the player(s) assist this battle by destroying tanks on the enemy side. When the players destroy a tank, it adds to the counter.  Honestly, 99% of players flying around really won't notice that the tanks aren't hitting each other, and instead will think they're assisting in an on going ground war. The other 1%... Well, they can write on the forums about how terrible a designer you are for not actually making the tanks fight it out correctly. SHAME ON YOU! 😄

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Sketch said it.

I've scripted many tank battles and there's always a bit of trickery on some level.

The players never know the difference.

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Also when German tank (pz  Iii because AI does not use Tiger) hit enemy tanks the bullets jump on the armour and no penetrate. So the dvs should intervene on the single tank and guns  models.

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He is right Sketch when says that during the mission the player rarely understands what actually happens on the battlefield. because the creators of missions often deal only with air combat. on the other hand, I sometimes like to build tactical support missions (especially with Stuka and Sturmovik) where the player cooperates with ground units to beat the enemy. for this it is necessary to know and set the correct behavior of tank and artillery. fortunately, the latter is more balanced between the Soviets and the Germans.

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3 hours ago, Alfaunostebas11 said:

He is right Sketch when says that during the mission the player rarely understands what actually happens on the battlefield. because the creators of missions often deal only with air combat.

 

No, that's not why he's right...read the above posts again.

We often script tank battles, as I've said I've scripted many...the point is that the players don't take notice of these things when flying.

Plenty of us also script tactical support missions, that doesn't change anything.

 

I remember spending 8 hours each on several tank battles in the old IL2 for a P-47 ground attack campaign, complete with cameras in strategic places to watch the action...nobody cared or noticed.

So now I'm much more brief with my tank logic etc. They're there, and they're doing stuff, but I don't spend hours letting battles play out to see who wins, how many tanks are left on each side etc....no point. They are mostly for effect, the appearance of war, and something to bomb.

 

You can do what you like with your time, but the sooner you realize the above, the sooner you'll maximize your time/efficiency.

 

 

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Agreed, most players don't even care about the ground battle or what's going on in the background. They only care about... What do I bomb? And how many enemy planes do I have to shoot down?

 

See WoL server as an example. Maxed players nearly all the time and they have nearly nothing but static objects to bomb.

 

No ground war, no smoke, no moving entities, no cool audio files, no briefing or very limited briefing, no real story... Not even a cool airfield to take off and land from. Why? Cause players don't care. 

 

Nearly all of the single player missions posted and most of the campaigns follow the same logic. 

 

But, you're still welcomed to build what you want and how you want. The point we're trying to make is; it will be very time consuming for very little reward (if any) in return.

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I remember staying up till 3 a.m getting a Sherman vs Tiger tank battle in the Carentan area to work out just so.

Laying complex waypoints/routes for each tank, choreographing the whole thing...testing, adjusting, testing...

 

Total waste of time in the end.

 

Recently in a mission I put German tanks on a spawner.

X number destroyed activates another wave, then another... Then whatever happens, happens.

All I care about is the effect lasting for the duration of the mission.

 

 

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Salutations,

 

Effective and engrossing mission building is definitely an art and building them is its' own reward. Fellow mission builders understand this.

 

Unfortunately, the average end mission player isn't aware of or even cares how much time and effort that was put into a mission(s) creation. The best we can hope for is that they were challenged and enjoyed participating in our mission(s).

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Having realized and published on MT4 several campaigns in IL-2 46 (the first "Kuban Campaign 1943", now ten years ago ...), I had a lot of satisfaction with thousands of downloads (maybe you've downloaded some of them, too). In all these campaigns I spent many hours in historical research and then also in ground battles, difficult to build and long to test, even in the old IL-2, with a minimum of historical realism, but for me it is a MUST.
So, I'm trying to do the same in this new IL-2 Sturmovik, with the difficulties we have now well known and with the risk, as Gambit wrote, of wasting so much time and not getting anything ... But, right now, I have time to spend and I want to try to do something that forces the player to take care of what happens on the ground ... The concept is that, in some close support mission, the planes must help the troops to win a battle, but at the same time the player needs the contribution of the ground forces, because alone he is not able to reach the goal.
You have understood ?
So there is a need for a part of the enemy units to be destroyed by friendly ground forces and a part by the player and his wingmen.
The known difficulties and disparities in the balance between the German and Soviet tanks complicate the thing, but I think that, putting in the field also the artillery, something good can be done.
I'm trying...

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49 minutes ago, Alfaunostebas11 said:

Having realized and published on MT4 several campaigns in IL-2 46 (the first "Kuban Campaign 1943", now ten years ago ...), I had a lot of satisfaction with thousands of downloads (maybe you've downloaded some of them, too). In all these campaigns I spent many hours in historical research and then also in ground battles, difficult to build and long to test, even in the old IL-2, with a minimum of historical realism, but for me it is a MUST.
So, I'm trying to do the same in this new IL-2 Sturmovik, with the difficulties we have now well known and with the risk, as Gambit wrote, of wasting so much time and not getting anything ... But, right now, I have time to spend and I want to try to do something that forces the player to take care of what happens on the ground ... The concept is that, in some close support mission, the planes must help the troops to win a battle, but at the same time the player needs the contribution of the ground forces, because alone he is not able to reach the goal.
You have understood ?
So there is a need for a part of the enemy units to be destroyed by friendly ground forces and a part by the player and his wingmen.
The known difficulties and disparities in the balance between the German and Soviet tanks complicate the thing, but I think that, putting in the field also the artillery, something good can be done.
I'm trying...

Included with the Kuban plane set is a single mission under Battle of Kuban scenarios called Tank Hunters with the Hs-129.  You are there to prevent a breakthrough of Soviet armor through the German lines.  As you arrive the Soviets are approaching the lines and the gun exchanges start happening.  It is when of the best scenarios I have played and it really gives a sense of urgency to help out the ground troops even if all you do is disable some tanks to slow them down.  

 

I don't know if you can look at the actual mission files or not, but it does show what I believe you want in a scenario are possible.

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In this moment I have only the vanilla BoS and not Kuban, so I can not test the mission you mention. But I think it's something that comes close to what I intend to do ...

Thank Plurp.

Stebas.

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1 hour ago, Alfaunostebas11 said:

. The concept is that, in some close support mission, the planes must help the troops to win a battle, but at the same time the player needs the contribution of the ground forces, because alone he is not able to reach the goal.
You have understood ?

 

 

Yes, we have always understood.

 

We create these types of missions as well...you didn't just make this concept up - no disrespect.

There's a smart way to do it, and a not so smart way to do it is what we're saying.

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Posted (edited)

Not being a native English speaker, sometimes I can not very well understand what you mean to say, that's why I explain my concepts in a simple and repetitive way, to be more certain to make myself understood. I wanted only to explain what I was going to do and what were the difficulties I'm encountering (remember the topic's subject: the superiority of Soviet tanks against German).

I do not think I've invented anything about missions, nor do I want to disrespect anyone.
I'm sorry if my words were misunderstood.
Stebas.

Edited by Alfaunostebas11

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Stebas, no worries at all.

All I'm saying, is that what you'e trying to do is more or less standard, nothing we haven't dealt with a hundred times.

No need to reinvent the wheel as they say.

 

You certainly CAN get lost in detail and get down in the weeds with tank battles etc, I've done it as I said.

However this sort of attention to detail is lost on the person flying the mission, so it's not the best way to spend your time resources when you can achieve exactly

the same effect (from the player perspective) by much simpler means. It's especially easy with the current editor as we can spawn/trigger units.

 

In the old IL2 everything that you wanted present when the player arrived had to be there at the beginning of the mission...which complicated scripting ground battles.

By the time the player arrives, all of one side might be dead!

 

It's much easier nowadays. Take advantage of triggers/spawners etc.

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You are certainly right Gambit. I have no doubt that the new Mission Editor, however complex and difficult to learn, is very powerful, compared to the old IL-2 Full Mission Building and theoretically you can do almost everything you have in mind ... above all very powerful commands like Complex trigger, Spawner, Check zone, Proximity etc. that allow objects to appear, for example, only when they can be seen by the player or simply when you want.
That said, this does not take away from the initial problem ... no German tank is capable of destroying a Soviet tank and this is a very serious bug for such a powerful and realistic simulator as IL-2 Sturmovik.
I hope it will soon be corrected.
Stebas.

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Well your initial problem can be dealt with by some trickery.

Either what Sketch or I already suggested, or simply adding more German tanks, with some flanking the Russian tanks.

 

You can overwhelm a T-34 and kill it by shooting it from the side with a PIV.

 

In any case this should only be an issue for players on the ground controlling tanks where such a think would be noticed.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, [TWB]Sketch said:

No ground war, no smoke, no moving entities, no cool audio files, no briefing or very limited briefing, no real story... Not even a cool airfield to take off and land from. Why? Cause players don't care. 

 

Nearly all of the single player missions posted and most of the campaigns follow the same logic. 

 

In my experience, part of this is because of the limitations in the engine. We'd have tons of moving steel on our server, if it was possible.

 

It's currently a dogfight sim with some static ground war possible.

Edited by LLv34_Temuri

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