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EAF_51_FOX

A.I. DEFENSIVE MANOUVERING..ANY LIGHT IN FUTURE?

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Hi, I'm pleased to see great and countinuos improving of the game of maps, campaigns, tank crew, new planes etc..etc... but still no one, "0" mentions by long time about any improvement on A.I. : engage manouvers especially defensive ones. Still 90% of A.I. behaviours defensive ones area pathetic continuos right or left turn... I know always developers says "we have not any specialist-programming A.I. in the team right now.."   but this lack situation persist after 3 years ?? for me is a great minus value for a game that should have really great potential to become the best WWII game of all time covering all aspect (air and ground) , but this really poor A.I.  and no mention from dev. team about any improvement in short future.

Edited by EAF_51_FOX
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AI has definitely improved in recent months, I see them flying more to their strengths than they used to.

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I've noticed "Small" A.I changes,it's still very poor at times IMO but..at least there's some work going on.

A.I doesn't bring in revenue so it's probably not a priority to the Devs but has a SP flyer,it ruins the sim at times for me.

 

No doubt the MP flyers will mention to try that mode,thing is a lot of us don't want/or feel comfortable flying MP.

 

This thread like others regarding A.I will probably get moved to complaints out of the way so to speak. Or get told "We heard you the first 1000 times" Or "don't keep harping on about it" :biggrin:

 

No but in all seriousness I agree with the OP,this Series does a load of things brilliantly,the "Feeling" of flight is unsurpassed. Unfortunitely the A.i still leaves a lot to be desired. And I for one welcome any A.I changes for the better.

 

 

Edited by Adger
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There were some minor improvements in recent updates and i believe there will be more in future but i don't think SP playerbase will be satisfied until they find a dev that will model specific flight beahviour for each aircraft type group (109's, 190's, yaks, spits....etc)to it's strenghts, which i believe  is a lot of work!

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9 minutes ago, Adger said:

A.I doesn't bring in revenue

 

Poor AI doesn't bring in revenue.  I stopped buying further installments 18 months ago.

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I had a small comparison with Il-2:1946 recently.

 

I had done a couple of 1vs1 fights against the AI, me in a LaGG-3S29 and the AI in a Bf109G-14. Basically I was curious about what the AI would do with a plane that superior. It did what it always does, same predictable and strange manoeuvres, only to be shot down in the end every time. I then had the idea to check how this setup would work out when doing the same thing in Il-2:1946. In the first run, I ended up on its six fairly quickly, only to suddenly have it go into scissors, which I couldn't follow. So I decided to hide in a cloud to prevent it taking advantage of me overshooting, and when I came out of the cloud, the 109 had used the superior climb rate to get into commanding position. So I left the fight. On the second try, after the initial merge, I looped and the 109 got into a steep climb. I tried to score a lucky hit, counting on it to spin out of control on top of the climb before I did, but instead it did a clean hammerhead turn and came down on me guns blazing, while I now struggled to keep my plane under control. I think I took a hit or two, at which point I again went for the nearest cloud, and didn't even look back to see if re-engaging was an option.

 

These were to two best 1vs1 fights I had against AI in a long time, with a 5 year old game. Unpredictable, smart and effective manoeuvres that, after years of flying in BoX, came so surprising, that in both instances, I was happy to get away with a draw. Against AI. I'd really like to see something similar in BoX some time.

Edited by JtD
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Progress has been slow on AI but we have seen some improvements. They have eliminated a few more instances where the AI rams into hills and the ground and they've got the AI doing more defensive break turns to try and get out of your gunsight than before. It's progress but I know people would like to see more.

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AI is an essential part of this series, specially considering they have implementeda career mode. MP is not the answer for a greater challenge as a lot of times humans are worse than AI. SP will provide a more realistic and immersive experience in most situations. I would love to see a better AI in this series as well.

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1 hour ago, SCG_Riksen said:

AI is an essential part of this series, specially considering they have implementeda career mode. MP is not the answer for a greater challenge as a lot of times humans are worse than AI. SP will provide a more realistic and immersive experience in most situations. I would love to see a better AI in this series as well.

 

 

1 hour ago, JtD said:

I had a small comparison with Il-2:1946 recently.

 

I had done a couple of 1vs1 fights against the AI, me in a LaGG-3S29 and the AI in a Bf109G-14. Basically I was curious about what the AI would do with a plane that superior. It did what it always does, same predictable and strange manoeuvres, only to be shot down in the end every time. I then had the idea to check how this setup would work out when doing the same thing in Il-2:1946. In the first run, I ended up on its six fairly quickly, only to suddenly have it go into scissors, which I couldn't follow. So I decided to hide in a cloud to prevent it taking advantage of me overshooting, and when I came out of the cloud, the 109 had used the superior climb rate to get into commanding position. So I left the fight. On the second try, after the initial merge, I looped and the 109 got into a steep climb. I tried to score a lucky hit, counting on it to spin out of control on top of the climb before I did, but instead it did a clean hammerhead turn and came down on me guns blazing, while I now struggled to keep my plane under control. I think I took a hit or two, at which point I again went for the nearest cloud, and didn't even look back to see if re-engaging was an option.

 

These were to two best 1vs1 fights I had against AI in a long time, with a 5 year old game. Unpredictable, smart and effective manoeuvres that, after years of flying in BoX, came so surprising, that in both instances, I was happy to get away with a draw. Against AI. I'd really like to see something similar in BoX some time.

 

Those are good replies: who reply go for Mp or "A.I. has recently updated may be not focused what was my intention to send a "ding-ding" message to dev team to wake up about improving A.I. 😁 that's all.

Edited by EAF_51_FOX
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I’m now seeing the 190 make fantastic use of the vertical when attacking a slow aircraft like the U2 - it’s actually fun to watch.

 

While this is offensive maneuvering and not defensive, it’s still behavior that wasn’t always present. Evidence to me that AI is getting attention. 

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45 minutes ago, 392FS_Jred said:

Who doesn't love chasing a 109 in an endless left turn?

 

Surely for even the most hard core affectionardo, of the Benny Hill AI, after the 200th time you would think it would begin to ware thin!

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1 minute ago, DD_fruitbat said:

 

Surely for even the most hard core affectionardo, of the Benny Hill AI, after the 200th time you would think it would begin to ware thin!

I just look at it as the AI going into a diabetic coma with the stick pinned to his chest and his foot slammed into the rudder. Clears it all up.

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3 hours ago, JtD said:

I had a small comparison with Il-2:1946 recently.

 

I had done a couple of 1vs1 fights against the AI, me in a LaGG-3S29 and the AI in a Bf109G-14. Basically I was curious about what the AI would do with a plane that superior. It did what it always does, same predictable and strange manoeuvres, only to be shot down in the end every time. I then had the idea to check how this setup would work out when doing the same thing in Il-2:1946. In the first run, I ended up on its six fairly quickly, only to suddenly have it go into scissors, which I couldn't follow. So I decided to hide in a cloud to prevent it taking advantage of me overshooting, and when I came out of the cloud, the 109 had used the superior climb rate to get into commanding position. So I left the fight. On the second try, after the initial merge, I looped and the 109 got into a steep climb. I tried to score a lucky hit, counting on it to spin out of control on top of the climb before I did, but instead it did a clean hammerhead turn and came down on me guns blazing, while I now struggled to keep my plane under control. I think I took a hit or two, at which point I again went for the nearest cloud, and didn't even look back to see if re-engaging was an option.

 

These were to two best 1vs1 fights I had against AI in a long time, with a 5 year old game. Unpredictable, smart and effective manoeuvres that, after years of flying in BoX, came so surprising, that in both instances, I was happy to get away with a draw. Against AI. I'd really like to see something similar in BoX some time.

 

Yeah, I remember the 46 AI.  It would outclimb me in aircraft that were not capable of that, then it would do some wacky BS that caused me to piss away energy while it lost no energy at all. Good times!

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3 hours ago, JtD said:

I'd really like to see something similar in BoX some time.

 

Agreed.  The TD re-working of the a.i. in '46 should be seen as some sort of standard to aspire to.

 

And wouldn't it be nice to have some reliable control over a.i. wingmen too?

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1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Yeah, I remember the 46 AI.  It would outclimb me in aircraft that were not capable of that, then it would do some wacky BS that caused me to piss away energy while it lost no energy at all. Good times!

 

The 46 AI after team d did there thing, is light years better than in this game.

 

  

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4 minutes ago, DD_fruitbat said:

 

The 46 AI after team d did there thing, is light years better than in this game.

 

  

 

No, it isn’t.  When you’re fighting against AI flying unicorns, then the AI isn’t better.

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10 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

No, it isn’t.  When you’re fighting against AI flying unicorns, then the AI isn’t better.

 

I very much doubt you've even played 46 after the relevant patch.

 

Even though the Ai doesn't use the exact same fm as the player, it gives a much better representation of humans, and displays the usage of a variety of combat manuvers which are no where to be seen in this sim ever.

 

It also has the benefit of being able to field more than 20 online without a cray computer.

Edited by DD_fruitbat
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2 minutes ago, DD_fruitbat said:

 

I very much doubt you've even played 46 after the relevant patch.

 

Ok, let’s assume that I haven’t, and 46 now has AI that is slightly better than crappy.  By the same standards you can expect the same thing in this game In about 10 years.

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By now (or better for years by now) the AI in 1946 uses the same FM as the player, including engine management. There are some shortcuts around take off and landing, but that hardly matters in a dogfight.

 

I sure hope that when the devs find the resources to rework the AI here, they take some inspiration from there. Certainly worth it.

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At this rate I'd almost rather have 1946's cheap and aimbotting AI over the dreadfully easy AI of GB. While it is indeed better than it was, and will most likely improve as BoBP gets closer, it's pretty frustrating in the meantime. As another user pointed out on another thread on this subject, truly talented AI programmers don't really work in the games industry anymore. Which also might explain the team's lack of a dedicated AI specialist at the moment.

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BTW, I recall some people saying that the RoF AI used to properly fly the B&Z aircraft like the Spad and SE5.  They would maintain their energy advantage and properly B&Z the slower Albs.  Was there great rejoicing throughout the land?  No.  There was actually lots of complaining because the SE5 became untouchable.  So the AI was changed to turn fight until eventually dying.  That seems to be what most flight simmers actually want.  AI that will pretend to put up a good fight, but eventually dies.

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I like the immersion factor of some AI planes not doing the right thing because in reality the majority of pilots didn't either. Also since the ai almost always breaks when you surprise them from behind I think they are a step up from a lot of pilots who don't have eyes on the back of their head. Most of the aircraft shot down in ww2 never saw what hit them. 

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5 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

AI isn't a priority. 

 

Not according to the changlists in the updates over the past couple of months.

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52 minutes ago, -LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor said:

I like the immersion factor of some AI planes not doing the right thing because in reality the majority of pilots didn't either.

 

That's why AI comes scalable, I certainly want to see differences between a rookie and a veteran.

 

52 minutes ago, -LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor said:

Also since the ai almost always breaks when you surprise them from behind I think they are a step up from a lot of pilots who don't have eyes on the back of their head.

 

Another thing well done in 1946, where not only you can sneak up on AI from their blind spots, but also will the AI take measures to cover its blind spot. Veterans more so than rookies.

 

19 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Not according to the changlists in the updates over the past couple of months.

 

Yeah, hope they keep going!

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1 hour ago, JtD said:

 

That's why AI comes scalable, I certainly want to see differences between a rookie and a veteran.

 

 

Another thing well done in 1946, where not only you can sneak up on AI from their blind spots, but also will the AI take measures to cover its blind spot. Veterans more so than rookies.

 

 

Yeah, hope they keep going!

 

The ai in 1946 may seem better in some aspects but it falls super short in others. It is a very complex task to create proficient AI but I don't think the AI in GB is nearly as bad as some people say, the fw190 ai seems to be bnz way more and the more agile allied aircraft try to lure you into turning like they should. 

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Yeah the AI needs a lot of work. As great as this game is in other aspects, the AI makes for kind of a frustrating experience at the moment.

I would like to add that this is not just the case for the veteran players, but also for "n00b-level" players like myself.
 

My current main gripe with the AI is not that it is bad at defensive maneuvering, but that their behaviour feels so unrealistic. They seem almost psychic in their actions. Not only do they have eyes in the backs of their heads (which makes it completely impossible to sneak up on them).  I also get the feeling that they know EXACTLY where my crosshair is when I am lining up a shot. And they actively maneuver to avoid it. (It seems they are not just reacting to the attitude of my plane but really to the exact position of my crosshair.  Even when AI is at Novice, they drift out of the way at the last second or drop a wing at just the right moment to avoid being hit.  That makes it extremely frustrating to practice deflection shooting).

Funnily enough that leads to a situation where I currently find it much easier to get kills on AI when they are doing their sustained turns compared to when they are running away in  a "straight line".

Personally I would happily pay 20 bucks just for being able to turn off that kind of AI hyper-awareness ...

 

 

Edited by Cow_Art

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I've had situations where they seem to 'lose me' and where I've sneaked up on them.

 

One time recently in campaign when a 109 was totally fixated on the plane he was pursuing in front and i was able to close really tightly on his 6.

 

Yesterday in another campaign mission, where a Hs129 after initially manoeuvring to avoid me seemed to lose visual with me sitting (by sheer good fortune) in his 6 and I was able to close without him avoiding, get hits, then he immediately reacted.

 

It was actually quite lifelike.

Edited by kendo

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7 hours ago, Cow_Art said:

Yeah the AI needs a lot of work. As great as this game is in other aspects, the AI makes for kind of a frustrating experience at the moment.

I would like to add that this is not just the case for the veteran players, but also for "n00b-level" players like myself.
 

My current main gripe with the AI is not that it is bad at defensive maneuvering, but that their behaviour feels so unrealistic. They seem almost psychic in their actions. Not only do they have eyes in the backs of their heads (which makes it completely impossible to sneak up on them).  I also get the feeling that they know EXACTLY where my crosshair is when I am lining up a shot. And they actively maneuver to avoid it. (It seems they are not just reacting to the attitude of my plane but really to the exact position of my crosshair.  Even when AI is at Novice, they drift out of the way at the last second or drop a wing at just the right moment to avoid being hit.  That makes it extremely frustrating to practice deflection shooting).

Funnily enough that leads to a situation where I currently find it much easier to get kills on AI when they are doing their sustained turns compared to when they are running away in  a "straight line".

Personally I would happily pay 20 bucks just for being able to turn off that kind of AI hyper-awareness ...

 

 

 

I believe it's based on distance, so when you are close enough to get a good shot is more or less when they are programmed to take evasive action. I'm pretty sure it doesnt matter where your crosshairs are. 

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29 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

 

I believe it's based on distance, so when you are close enough to get a good shot is more or less when they are programmed to take evasive action. I'm pretty sure it doesnt matter where your crosshairs are. 

 

I would agree with that based on my observations.

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2 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

 

I believe it's based on distance, so when you are close enough to get a good shot is more or less when they are programmed to take evasive action. I'm pretty sure it doesnt matter where your crosshairs are. 

 

hm, that's a really good point.  Perhaps I am just imagining things. I'll check tonight. Thanks! :)

Edited by Cow_Art

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5 minutes ago, Cow_Art said:

 

hm, that's a really good point.  Perhaps I am just imagining things. I'll check tonight. Thanks! :)

 

I caught myself sometimes thinking the same but they sometimes move right into it, twas all in my head all along! 

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If you’re unable to hit the turning enemy why does it matter that it turns endlessly? You will wear out before enemy if you cannot force the enemy out of its turn. I have certainly seen instances wherein the enemy will evade once it gets hit. Going online only increases the number of variables over which the player lacks control. I question whether the online damage model is the same as what exists in the sp game mode and think that the issue is never addressed in forums.

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1 hour ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If you’re unable to hit the turning enemy why does it matter that it turns endlessly? You will wear out before enemy if you cannot force the enemy out of its turn. I have certainly seen instances wherein the enemy will evade once it gets hit. Going online only increases the number of variables over which the player lacks control. I question whether the online damage model is the same as what exists in the sp game mode and think that the issue is never addressed in forums.

 

Why do you think it hasn't been addressed in the forums? Maybe because what you are saying is absurd?

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On 2/16/2019 at 4:40 AM, dburne said:

AI has definitely improved in recent months, I see them flying more to their strengths than they used to.

 

As far as some attack/bomber planes go it has gotten far worse. 

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